Some Constructive Criticism about developemental direction: (WARNING! LONG POST!)

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Bamboozling is present tense. I have been bamboozled, paste tense. SA is bad and it has no reason to be. Period.

 

No one here is referencing anything to justify the delay in the product and the confusing development priorities (im looking at you throw-able items), other than what comes across as mere fanboism.

 

It makes more sense to make small leaps before tacking on the big hurdles. You might have expected a reworked mod, but they're making a new product from the ground up. I'm content with the progress made, and it's some pretty far since release. No one ripped you off. There was a disclaimer. We're all testers, and we're being given the chance to test an unfinished product. We provide feedback on the implementation of new items, and report bugs. This isn't a finished game, and it won't be for a while. You read the disclaimers (I hope), and no one ripped you off.

 

The developers have gone through painstaking lengths to remind people this is a buggy, unfinished game in progress. Every time a developer makes a tweet, reddit, or forum post about ANYTHING, someone just has to complain- "No vehicles, this sucks!" or "Why isn't this finished yet, I've been ripped off!".

 

It's Alpha. It's development cycle is barely over. We have six or so months until we hit Beta, and another year until full release. It is VERY early to make grandiose assumptions that the developers have ripped everyone off, made a shitty game, and that the mod is glistening example of superiority and polish (it's not). ArmA wasn't exactly designed for the exact needs of DayZ. They're trying to change that, by making a new game. Not a polished version of the mod. An entirely new game. This will take time, but I've said that a million times before. It just needs to be drilled into the thick heads of a very vocal minority.

 

I've logged in almost 400 hours, and I have reaped more than enough out of the thirty dollars I've spent. Better than any gimmicky ten dollar indie title or triple A sixty dollar game has brought me in a very long time.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

They are lollygaggers. In no industry is it acceptable to take two months off in the middle of a project. 

Sure it is, being the lead of a team does have it's perks.

 

Rocket is more or less just a figure, like Notch is for Minecraft. Sure, he has a hand in development, but he's mainly left it to the 70+ other staff members.

And they are absolutely not lollygagging, they're working full time on the game. Just because they don't seem to be revealing major gameplay features every update does not mean they're not making progress. Just in the last experimental update we have object persistence and loot respawn, which is a pretty big milestone considering the mod had poor and very little persistence and respawning was clunky as hell.

 

Let's not forget that we've had hunting, campfires, herbalism, fishing, chopping down trees, an ENTIRE FUCKING CITY, a completely redesigned NEAF, helicopter crashsites & police car crashsites, a good lot of new weapons, clothes, food, and other content (many of which DayZ has never seen, like the Bow), respawning zombies, and a ton of other stuff, and that's just in the past few months.

Seems like progress to me.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Baker. 1484]

It makes more sense to make small leaps before tacking on the big hurdles.

This is what people do when aren't pushed. They do busy work to appear like they are contributing. I've been management long enough to recognize when people are being "busy" instead of "effective". And for me its not that features are missing in the alpha. Its the overall lethargy in the development cycle. Again fanboi nonsense

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bakermensch

[pilgrim* 3514]

Bamboozling is present tense. I have been bamboozled, paste tense. SA is bad and it has no reason to be. Period.

 

No one here is referencing anything to justify the delay in the product and the confusing development priorities (im looking at you throw-able items), other than what comes across as mere fanboism.

 

There is NOT a delay in the product

There are NOT confusing development priorities

 

Therefore no one is refererencing them.

 

now what do you NOT understand ?

 

take it easy, put the glass down, read through this TWICE

think about it. Over on your empty chat it is early in the evening .. think how wasted you are going to be later tonight

maybe you ought to get some sleep?

 

xx

[Baker. 1484]

Sure it is, being the lead of a team does have it's perks.

 

Rocket is more or less just a figure, like Notch is for Minecraft. Sure, he has a hand in development, but he's mainly left it to the 70+ other staff members.

And they are absolutely not lollygagging, they're working full time on the game. Just because they don't seem to be revealing major gameplay features every update does not mean they're not making progress. Just in the last experimental update we have object persistence and loot respawn, which is a pretty big milestone considering the mod had poor and very little persistence and respawning was clunky as hell.

The development of this game is slow and unproductive, if you accept that you are welcome to do so. But lets call a spade a spade. 

 

And loot if respawning two years into development is a major milestone to you than brother i wish you were my boss, i could get away with anything.

[Baker. 1484]

There is NOT a delay in the product

There are NOT confusing development priorities

 

Therefore no one is refererencing them.

 

now what do you NOT understand ?

 

take it easy, put the glass down, read through this TWICE

think about it. Over on your empty chat it is early in the evening .. think how wasted you are going to be later tonight

maybe you ought to get some sleep?

 

xx

How do I enter the alternate dimension you live in? Where those things you say are true?

And as far as "understanding" goes i said the development priorities are confusing, not saying they are confusing them. Please read the posts more carefully.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bakermensch

[Chaingunfighter 917]

The development of this game is slow and unproductive, if you accept that you are welcome to do so. But lets call a spade a spade. 

 

And loot if respawning two years into development is a major milestone to you than brother i wish you were my boss, i could get away with anything.

The development hasn't been unproductive, or slow. It's only been about 8 months since the alpha was released. Yes, they've been conceptualizing and working on the standalone for about two years as a whole, but the huge following of DayZ didn't grow until that point, and still, it wasn't until the massive success of the alpha sales that the team grew and development skyrocketed.

 

Making loot respawn doesn't seem like a major milestone, but it's not like you can just type up a script and whoopty-do! You've got loot respawning, it takes time to actually create a system that works well and doesn't just reset a building over a span of time. Loot respawning in the mod was so bad because the detection and method was terrible so you could end up traveling into a new town and finding nothing because loot wasn't supposed to spawn for server hoppers but if you entered too quickly it couldn't tell the difference. Making it work well is the big problem.

 

And I would never hire anyone who's going to just drone on that development is "unproductive" and "slow". I would hire people who actually work to solve the problems they find instead of just complaining about them.

[Baker. 1484]

 Yes, they've been conceptualizing and working on the standalone for about two years as a whole

 

Conceptualizing what exactly? The map? The Engine? The game mechanics? I'm fairly certain all those things were already "conceptualized".

 

Btw when you have a spare minute I have a bridge to sell you

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bakermensch

[Hetstaine 10852]

.

 

double post weirdness.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Hetstaine

[Baker. 1484]

.

 

double post weirdness.

 

I only see this one.

[Hetstaine 10852]

I only see this one.

 

 Yeah shit went weird, i think we all posted at once and the matrix glitched.

 

 Basically, i don't have much of a drama with the way it is progressing  imo.  The mod progressed a lot slower overall, considering most of the assets were there to start with, things just had to be tweaked to suit, and it was still very broken more than a year after release. The Cliffs of Dover Alpha/Beta and took nearly five years,many directional changes, things were constantly ripped out and added..people walked away etc..it makes this alpha seem like a walk in the park. In the 7 and a bit months since full test alpha release.  If you aren't on experimental trying to break stuff, find glitchs, breaking bones,  trying out everything as it is being added then you aren't doing yourself any favours

[Baker. 1484]

 Yeah shit went weird, i think we all posted at once and the matrix glitched.

 

 Basically, i don't have much of a drama with the way it is progressing  imo.  The mod progressed a lot slower overall, considering most of the assets were there to start with, things just had to be tweaked to suit, and it was still very broken more than a year after release. The Cliffs of Dover Alpha/Beta and took nearly five years,many directional changes, things were constantly ripped out and added..people walked away etc..it makes this alpha seem like a walk in the park. In the 7 and a bit months since full test alpha release.  If you aren't on experimental trying to break stuff, find glitchs, breaking bones,  trying out everything as it is being added then you aren't doing yourself any favours

Good points. Comes across as thoughtful and reasoned. Cheers my good man. Most people just scream "ERMAGERD ITS IN ALPHER! NOOB WHY YOU DISSENT?". Honestly its good that they have fans like you.

 

But remember the bigger studios are eyeing this market. And it would be foolish to say people will stick around if a better product rears its head. But it doesn't matter anyways to BIS since they made a metric shit-tonne of cash already.

Goodwill is a thing. It's a metric by which the value of a company or product is calculated, and they abused that for myself and many others. The people above who treat my opinions(which echo the opinions of many others) like an attack on their mother seem to have more faith in the leadership of this dev team than I do. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Bakermensch

[Zed's Dead 67]

 

 

Let's not forget that we've had hunting, campfires, herbalism, fishing, chopping down trees, an ENTIRE FUCKING CITY, a completely redesigned NEAF, helicopter crashsites & police car crashsites, a good lot of new weapons, clothes, food, and other content (many of which DayZ has never seen, like the Bow), respawning zombies, and a ton of other stuff, and that's just in the past few months.

Seems like progress to me.

 

But why did we get all of that and yet no fixes for ambient sounds, zombie collision, silencers broken, terrible response times with controls, desync.... etc?  In fairness, it is logical for people to question what is going on in terms of real progress to the fundamental problems.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Good points. Comes across as thoughtful and reasoned. Cheers my good man. Most people just scream "ERMAGERD ITS IN ALPHER! NOOB WHY YOU DISSENT?". Honestly its good that they have fans like you.

 

But remember the bigger studios are eyeing this market. And it would be foolish to say people will stick around if a better product rears its head. But it doesn't matter anyways to BIS since they made a metric shit-tonne of cash already.

Goodwill is a thing. It's a metric by which the value of a company or product is calculated, and they abused that for myself and many others. The people above who treat my opinions(which echo the opinions of many others) like an attack on their mother seem to have more faith in the leadership of this dev team than I do. 

 

 People always jump ship to the next big thing, I'm pretty fussy and generally find my game and stick with it for the long haul if i think it has potential, not saying i don't look around..but nothing has popped up on my radar that seems on par with Dayz yet. That and the fact that Rocket has always stated he doesn't care if the game crashes and burns but that he was making what he wanted to make that ,  especially when most devs are constantly just hype hype hype bs.

 

But why did we get all of that and yet no fixes for ambient sounds, zombie collision, silencers broken, terrible response times with controls, desync.... etc?  In fairness, it is logical for people to question what is going on in terms of real progress to the fundamental problems.

 

 Sounds has been stated many times as one of the last things to be looked at/fixed although there was mention on Reddit today from one of the devs about some sound fixing. Nav mesh is a wip and much better since basic implementation, going from Exp servers to stable was terrible because of the way the zeds are there. Most of the info is there to find out if you choose to look it up or cross posted here :) 

 

 Alphas should always be questioned and picked apart and  it would be easier if they at least had some sort of basic dev blog deal..but this just isn't the way Rocket works..so you either suck it up and deal with it and scab around and find all of the real info yourself from the horses mouth or carry on like a madman on the forums uninformed like many do :)

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Conceptualizing what exactly? The map? The Engine? The game mechanics? I'm fairly certain all those things were already "conceptualized".

 

Btw when you have a spare minute I have a bridge to sell you

Then clearly you're the one who does not understand how development works, not me, even if you do use a clever metaphor.

[Baker. 1484]

Then clearly you're the one who does not understand how development works, not me, even if you do use a clever metaphor.

 

<---------------------Bored of arguing with fanbois

[Chaingunfighter 917]

But why did we get all of that and yet no fixes for ambient sounds, zombie collision, silencers broken, terrible response times with controls, desync.... etc?  In fairness, it is logical for people to question what is going on in terms of real progress to the fundamental problems.

Because they're two entirely different issues.

 

I mean, I can understand why people seem to question the progress, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

 

Imagine time traveling back to the 1200s, and demonstrating all of the modern technology we have. We have flying machines that can break the sound barrier and travel miles into the air, space ships that can take us to the moon, submarine ships that can travel to some of the deepest depths, massive bombs that can annihilate entire cities in seconds.... but we still have no effective cure for the common cold. That would be incredibly surprising to someone from that time, assuming they didn't just burn you at the stake for witchcraft.

 

The teams who work on new content are separate from the teams who work on fixing the bugs. The artists aren't just going to stop making new models and graphics because there are some annoying bugs or issues in the game, they have to keep working.

 

Many of the issues you're complaining about have been addressed anyway.

 

• Ambient sounds were caused by a bug with how sound transmitted from zombie AI and reloading, but I haven't experienced it for a while so I'd assumed it has been fixed.
• The zombie pathfinding has been addressed and is being worked on, the reason it didn't work was because the zombies can't detect where solid objects are and the game doesn't have active collision for them, hence why they run through them. They're working on a navmesh build that should completely stop zombies from running into or through anything they're not supposed to, and improve pathfinding tenfold.
• Suppressors are broken because there's problems with trying to get the gun to switch sound effects and work differently after the suppressor attachment has been added. This issue didn't exist in ArmA 2 because attachments weren't a thing. That, and it's a low priority issue (which is another reason why some progress gets slowed, because the team focuses on larger issues and the smaller ones get pushed back)
• The terrible control response time & desync are both part of the same issue, and it's something that's plagued the engine and Bohemia's servers since Operation Flashpoint, it's not strictly to do with DayZ. That's why the team is so focused on optimization, because servers with large amounts of stress on them tend to just desync instead of actually lagging, since it is a serverside issue, not a clientside one. Still, it's being worked on, that's all I can say.

[Baker. 1484]

 People always jump ship to the next big thing, I'm pretty fussy and generally find my game and stick with it for the long haul if i think it has potential, not saying i don't look around..but nothing has popped up on my radar that seems on par with Dayz yet. That and the fact that Rocket has always stated he doesn't care if the game crashes and burns but that he was making what he wanted to make that ,  especially when most devs are constantly just hype hype hype bs.

 

 

 Sounds has been stated many times as one of the last things to be looked at/fixed although there was mention on Reddit today from one of the devs about some sound fixing. Nav mesh is a wip and much better since basic implementation, going from Exp servers to stable was terrible because of the way the zeds are there. Most of the info is there to find out if you choose to look it up or cross posted here :)

 

 Alphas should always be questioned and picked apart and  it would be easier if they at least had some sort of basic dev blog deal..but this just isn't the way Rocket works..so you either suck it up and deal with it and scab around and find all of the real info yourself from the horses mouth or carry on like a madman on the forums uninformed like many do :)

This, Genltemen, is how someone debates.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

<---------------------Bored of arguing with fanbois

I'm in no way being fanatic about the gameplay, in fact I have my complaints and in no way do I think the game is perfect. I guess if simply disagreeing with a critical point makes me a "fanboi", then fair enough, I'm a "fanboi"

[newberryes 40]

I had actually interest to read this whole thing(rarely do,i hate books) and you bring up good points. The weight system NEEDS to be added and the overall inventory system needs to be improved if not revamped as same goes for the ballistics system.

[crazykage 1063]

Son, Rocket doesn't care what you think.

 

Hopefully Hicks does.

I don't doubt it for a second. Why should he? I am only one voice among LITERALLY thousands. HUNDREDS of thousands. I make my voice heard, others who agree join in on the "chant", and THEN, maybe he will bless us with his attention. The dude's a very busy man. I don't doubt for a SECOND that he doesn't care what I and I alone think, and I DONT CARE that he doesn't. Getting that man's personal attention wasn't my goal.

 

And btw, I don't know how old you are, but I know for damn sure I aint your "son".

 

-with respect.

[crazykage 1063]

I think what he means is.....   they already made close to 50 million in sales and at that point, would't you feel like a God and that everything you do turns to gold?  

 

What is their motivation to listen to anyone or even complete the game?   Just saying maybe that's what some people feel because it explains why major problems with the game are so slowly being addressed or not at all.

 

It would be like getting to bang Kate Upton, if you didn't shave your face and your body was an ugly mess but Kate Upton had sex with you.... would you really be motivated or feel the need to clean up your act?

 

Maybe that's what that guy meant by "Rocket doesn't care what you think".

 

Who does Rocket have left to impress?

Im quoting this one post, but this response is addressed to all of those saying something similar (but maybe without the outlandish kate upton sex thing. Really man?).

 

I don't believe for a second that rocket or the rest of the dev team are taking our money and running. I don't care that rocket climbed Mt. Everest. If nothing else, I am impressed. That takes some fuking BALLS. If you can make it to the top of that mother, you can do ANY fuking thing, including making an outstanding video game.

 

I don't think the game is terrible as it is. Well, ok, it IS terrible. But its an ALPHA. I EXPECTED that, and all in all, I am actually well pleased. I have CERTAINLY gotten my 30 bucks worth of entertainment value from it and THEN some.

 

I DO however have some CONCERNS (note, I tend to capitalize words to show emphasis. Grammatically  asinine, I know. But as I said before, I aint tryin ta rite an engrish paper here) about many of the design decisions, as well as the direction the game seems to be going. For all I know, EVERY one of my concerns will be fixed and addressed perfectly to my satisfaction at some point in the development process, and I will find myself in video game nirvana. But I DONT know that. I DONT know what the general direction the devs are shooting for is. I AM concerned by what appear to be their priorities.

 

But then again, that is why this is titled CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, and not "U FUKING SUK DEAN UR GAME R SHIT!". This is just some of my, somewhat less than humble (admittedly) opinions that others may or may not agree with. I hope others DO agree, and I hope these issues get notice and are properly redressed. That's all I am shooting for.

 

But, as said, you are free to disagree, just please (continue) to do so in a respectful manner. Some of the viewpoints I have read in response to my OP aren't what you would call FRIENDLY, but at least they are, for the most part, not insulting. Hell, thus far, my critique has been the most scathing thing IN this thread, and I wasn't even going for that initially.

 

And again, THANK you, oh insufferably impatient ones, for ACTUALLY taking the time to read that thing. I actually DO appreciate it.

[crazykage 1063]

Honestly I hope my words (separate from these quoted words) are taken to heart, and the only way I feel they could do any damage was if they rang true to those who heard them. The game is a disaster. And clearly only sold so well due to the goodwill generated by the polish  R4z0r put on the mod. We all expected better, because we had and have better. They had an engine, map and gameplay mechanics all devised. Aside from the wonderful work that has been done on enter-able buildings it begs the question. What in gods name have they been doing? It think we all know. 

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-04-15-only-dean-rocket-hall-would-take-a-two-month-sabbatical-to-climb-mount-everest

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/29zuuf/i_think_rocketcharacter_is_ruining_atmosphere_in/

 

EDIT- An one cannot propose that an abundance of revenue in any industry does not slow development. 

I mostly agree with you, with the exception of the "disaster". Its nowhere near that far gone. It CANT be said at this (still) early stage. But yes, they had an engine, a map, and a WHOLE HOST of FUNCTIONING mechanics (like ballistics, the core of realistic inventory, a functioning map AND compass), and they threw it all out (seemingly) in favor of arbitrary, over simplified systems. And they continue to concern me with their apparent priorities.

[crazykage 1063]

Crazykage put a lot of work into this thread, please do not derail/clutter it with videos about Daykatana or similar. It isn't productive.

 

Thread cleaned a bit.

Thank you Max. I am grateful. THIS is a perfect example of what I was talking about near the end of my rant. LET THE MODERATORS DO THIER JOBS. I KNOW they can do it. I cant even remember how many times I have reported a purely inciteful, insulting, trollish post, only to see it ERASED from space and time by the fast acting moderators in a few minutes or even moments. Let that continue to happen, and eventually it will be like a massive, activated charcoal filter cleansing the water that is this forum's community, until naught but tolerable, sane people are left behind.

 

Then we can all finally POLITELY hate each other's views, instead of insulting each other. lol.

[Hetstaine 10852]

 

BALLISTICS:

 

AAAAAAANNNND here it is: My FAVORITE issue.

 

 

Lucky you.. they are playing with it now   :)