AKM vs SKS

[Insane Ruffles 74]

Damage, Range, and attachment comparison. What are the differences?

[SFRGaming 718]

Think of the AKM as a SKS with tons of attachments and full-auto capability.

[dricht1 28]

Chance of finding: SKS > AKM

 

Everything else: AKM > SKS

[Katana67 2907]

I'd love to see an in-depth comparison (Gews, are you out there?) with statistics and such.

 

But, assuming that they perform pretty much the same... The AKM is clearly better in terms of versatility and attachments. But the SKS is the obvious choice for a "starter" gun.

 

Why anyone would pick a now-rarest-weapon-in-the-game M4A1 over the AKM and/or SKS is totally beyond me. Hence why things like the M4A1 should never be considered "high-end." Even just as a concept, and even if it were more accurate than it is now, as far as DayZ is concerned... the AKM/SKS is just patently better. And you can't have hyper-rare weapons... be worse than their mid-tier or even low-tier counterparts.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Katana67

[SFRGaming 718]

Why anyone would pick a now-rarest-weapon-in-the-game M4A1 over the AKM and/or SKS is totally beyond me. Hence why things like the M4A1 should never be considered "high-end." Even just as a concept, and even if it were more accurate than it is now, as far as DayZ is concerned... the AKM/SKS is just patently better. And you can't have hyper-rare weapons... be worse than their mid-tier or even low-tier counterparts.

Now that it is decently rare (as it should be), I want to see it buffed tremendously in terms of dispersion. 

[Katana67 2907]

Now that it is decently rare (as it should be), I want to see it buffed tremendously in terms of dispersion. 

 

But that's what I was saying. Even if they do that, it can't be any better than the AKM given the statistics used in DayZ to make weapons perform the way they do, without bleeding into the realm of silliness OR conversely being hyper-realistic and therefore requiring an undue amount of effort from the developers.

 

The AKM hits harder, has the same magazine capacity if not a more voluminous magazine in the 75 rounder, is easier to find in and of itself, is much easier to resupply, is almost every bit as modular, and has a better scope available.

 

In order to justify making the M4A1 rare, it also (in my opinion) has to be almost entirely better than its uncommon/common cousins. Otherwise, why is it rare? If it's from an argument of pure aesthetics/likelihood, then sure. But that isn't a satisfactory criterion in my opinion for making a weapon rare. Take the FAL in the mod. It was passed over, because it was rare... its magazines/ammunition were/was rare... and it didn't actually perform any better than its common/uncommon counterparts like the M14 AIM and DMR.

 

Which is why I make the argument that assault rifles should never be high-end or hyper-rare. Just as concepts, they don't provide enough of an advantage in my opinion to warrant being anything more than uncommon/rare loot (vice helicopter loot or regulated via the incoming loot system). Things like GPMGs, LMGs, DMRs/BRs, dedicated sniper rifles, absolutely. Make them rare as hell, because they actually confer a significant advantage upon those using them.

 

But the M4A1, even if it's made more accurate, can never be the rarest of the rare in my opinion. I get why they did it for now, because it's the only weapon which could plausibly be deemed "high-end" currently. I like that they've returned to the helicopter spawn paradigm. But once weapons which are actually deserving of regulation due to their advantageous nature are implemented, I don't want it being hyper-rare.

 

In short, I don't feel assault rifles warrant being hyper-rare.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Katana67

[q.S Sachiel 470]

I always saw the M4 as more of a deterrant/suppression+support weapon.  It holds it's own within 200m very well, but a half decent player with mosin, SKS or even shotgun can outperform the M4 within these ranges.  ACOG allows for an extension of your reach, but with the accuracy of the M4, it's going to draw in/scare off people before it kills them.

 

The AKM however.  Dear god.  If you're within 500m you're pretty much dead.  500<700m, and you're probably about in the same position as with an M4 (not being too easy to hit) but you know that you're only going to take 2 hits then your dead, rather than the upwards of 10 for the M4...  The psychology factor is a lot more intense, i've been on the receiving end of AK twice, and got away once.  Both times I was shitting myself at ~>400m from antagonist. 

 

The accuracy is probably a little worse than the SKS, and it's somewhat difficult to pop off single shots without wasting one or two due to automatic, but i'd AKM every time, hands down over SKS.  The only real disadvantage is that you may be a higher priority target for brave souls and hackers who are out for your kit.

 

Edit:

as response to above^ I got no problem with the M4 being rare.  Some will still want / search for it irrespective if it's worse than the ak in given scenarios.  I agree with your rarity:usefulness/power comparison idea, but ultimately if there's a weapon out there that shits on the rest hands down (AKM) then people are going to be out tooth and nail for that and will eventually exchange the rest out for it.

Just like every other 'loot advancement' rpg/fps out there like STALKER and the like, you're just working your way up to the top and then that's it.  If you want flavor then you go for the other guns, otherwise you swap them out as you advance.  But ultimately you're after the prize. The tip of the spear, edge of the knife, crack of my ass.

 

I got no problem with the M4 being rare and less powerful / semi-obseleted by the AKM.  To be honest though, if the devs start inserting a greater variation of weapons to provide a broad range of power and handling, then that should moot this point, as the 'lacking' of one weapon is marginal compared to the 'power' of another above/below tier.

Edited July 14, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[gibonez 3633]

The m4 could absolutely be the top end military rifle in the game but only if one thing happens.

 

The m4 along with all the weapons in the game are given their real life characteristics.

 

The m4 could easily fit the role of highest end rifle for numerous reasons.

 

• sheer amount of firepower
• Flat shooting, highly accurate
• Light recoil for easy repeat shots
• Extremely modular to fit any conceivable role from CQC rifle to makeshift silenced SPR.

 

If the game goes away from arcade dispersion and gives the weapons their real life attributes the m4 could be the rarest highest end Assault Rifle in the game and it would make perfect sense. There is a reason after all that most of the worlds special forces choose the m4 as their preferred carbine and not some new fangled rifle that is the flavor of the week.

 

With the near unlimited budget of special forces all over the world they always keep coming back to the m4 and that is for a reason.

 

 

Everyone from US special forces to Russian special forces use the m4. It is so highly adaptable for any situation.

[-Gews- 7443]

I'd love to see an in-depth comparison (Gews, are you out there?) with statistics and such.

Can't compare it now since the game is changing every update and I haven't used it much but AKM is much better right now. No dispersion and with the PSO-1 scope you can aim while walking left or backwards and have little to no sway, even when tired or with broken arms.

Why anyone would pick a now-rarest-weapon-in-the-game M4A1 over the AKM and/or SKS is totally beyond me. Hence why things like the M4A1 should never be considered "high-end." Even just as a concept, and even if it were more accurate than it is now, as far as DayZ is concerned... the AKM/SKS is just patently better.

AKM has 41% more damage, way too much of an increase, if the increase is a more reasonable number, like 20%, then the lower recoil, longer range, better accuracy of some hypothetical M4A1 could allow it to equal or surpass the AKM's effectiveness. Optics for M4 should also be easier to find. Perhaps PSO-1 should ONLY spawn on SVDs - makes sense and also allows M4 to gain the upper hand in the long-range optics department.

[gibonez 3633]

Perhaps PSO-1 should ONLY spawn on SVDs - makes sense and also allows M4 to gain the upper hand in the long-range optics department.

 

I cant begin to tell you how much I like this idea.

 

Would make perfect sense too if the SVD is extremely rare.

[Katana67 2907]

AKM has 41% more damage, way too much of an increase, if the increase is a more reasonable number, like 20%, then the lower recoil, longer range, better accuracy of some hypothetical M4A1 could allow it to equal or surpass the AKM's effectiveness. Optics for M4 should also be easier to find. Perhaps PSO-1 should ONLY spawn on SVDs - makes sense and also allows M4 to gain the upper hand in the long-range optics department.

 

Two things.

 

1. I don't foresee the bit about the PSO-1 happening. If only because they've stated that they're considering things like the SVD for their loot management system. And I don't think a humble 4x scope warrants being lumped in with the SVD's supposed rarity if that were to happen. Now, I think the SVD should be on the "lower end" of their hypothetical loot system with a healthy amount being available (vice it being a 2-3 per hive deal in being the rarest of the rare). But that's a different argument.

 

2. Even if they do as you say, unless it's just patently better than the AKM in all (or most) regards then I still don't think it warrants being as rare as it is and/or will be. Unless the recoil is either prohibitively ridiculous on the AKM, or laughably miniscule on the M4A1, it just cannot be better inasmuch as DayZ is concerned. Even if it performs better, it's still hampered by a variety of commonality issues (largely to do, now, with its ammunition... magazines... and optics/attachments... all only spawning at helicopters).

 

In other words, I don't think it would be helpful to make the AKM worse via making optics rarer for it (from both a practical and "authentic" point of view) and making the M4A1 better via making optics more common.

 

And, just on a personal note, I don't think assault rifles warrant being considered for positions of hyper-rarity. Obviously, I want the M4A1 to be rarer than the AKM. But only marginally.

[Insane Ruffles 74]

My question is, is the damage the same on the SKS and AKM? I can take out people in 2-3 shots with an SKS but Im not sure with the AKM.

[Katana67 2907]

My question is, is the damage the same on the SKS and AKM? I can take out people in 2-3 shots with an SKS but Im not sure with the AKM.

 

This is what I was hoping to have answered. I don't really know what statistics are attached to what items (i.e. the weapon itself, ammunition, magazine). It was explained to me before, but I don't really remember how it's applied.

[SFRGaming 718]

I'd like to see majority of people forced to use pistols and sub-machine guns. 

[gibonez 3633]

I'd like to see majority of people forced to use pistols and sub-machine guns. 

 

Same here.

 

I would love it for when the loot managment system takes off they limit Assault rifles, non Eastern weapons to only a handful across all servers.

 

I want to see the grand majority of people with bolt guns, shotguns, 22lr rifles and pistols. 

 

SMGS being the common rare loot in military bases.

[Katana67 2907]

Edit:

as response to above^ I got no problem with the M4 being rare.  Some will still want / search for it irrespective if it's worse than the ak in given scenarios.  I agree with your rarity:usefulness/power comparison idea, but ultimately if there's a weapon out there that shits on the rest hands down (AKM) then people are going to be out tooth and nail for that and will eventually exchange the rest out for it.

Just like every other 'loot advancement' rpg/fps out there like STALKER and the like, you're just working your way up to the top and then that's it.  If you want flavor then you go for the other guns, otherwise you swap them out as you advance.  But ultimately you're after the prize. The tip of the spear, edge of the knife, crack of my ass.

 

I got no problem with the M4 being rare and less powerful / semi-obseleted by the AKM.  To be honest though, if the devs start inserting a greater variation of weapons to provide a broad range of power and handling, then that should moot this point, as the 'lacking' of one weapon is marginal compared to the 'power' of another above/below tier.

 

But the aesthetic isn't in and of itself a motivator for me. I didn't crawl all over the map to find a FAL because I thought it was cooler than the M14 (which I do).

 

There's more to a weapon than just its own rarity. Which is why I think the M4A1 need not be hyper-rare, as it also relies on ostensibly uncommon/rare ammunition, magazines and attachments. So you may not be able to find 5.56x45 for a while, so you'd have to ditch that weapon in favor of another if the situation didn't suit it.

 

I have no issue with a relatively linear weapon hierarchy. The issue was, in the mod, that the hierarchy wasn't protracted or varied enough. You could find top-tier weapons pretty much everywhere, because the top-tier weapons were just uncommon weapons (like the DMR). Likewise, the "tiers" in this hierarchy were poorly defined... because weapons really only had three concerns (i.e. the rarity of the conjoined ammunition/magazines, the performance of the weapon, and the performance of the inseparable attachments). This has since been improved on, allowing each weapon to have different capabilities which are dependent on more things (i.e. the rarity of separate ammunition and magazines, the rarity of separate attachments, and the performance of the weapon).

 

So, in other words, they can better balance the weapon rarity by having more data points from which to vary the capabilities of each weapon.

[Zombie Milkman 167]

To my friends overseas - what is the most common round sold on the market there?  Prior to the gun law frenzy, here in the US I think the most common rounds were 9 and .22.
  I am just curious...

 

My answer would be whatever our fellow overseas players respond with, assuming the game honors reality.

 

A gun with easily found ammo in this kind of environment is the best one to have no matter what it is, in theory.  Being the only guy with "The Judge" in Russia is about as unenvious as a screen door salesman on a submarine.  My favorite handguns are all 9mm CZ, Sig, Walther, or HKs as far as semi autos go. 

[Insane Ruffles 74]

To my friends overseas - what is the most common round sold on the market there?  Prior to the gun law frenzy, here in the US I think the most common rounds were 9 and .22.

  I am just curious...

 

My answer would be whatever our fellow overseas players respond with, assuming the game honors reality.

 

A gun with easily found ammo in this kind of environment is the best one to have no matter what it is, in theory.  Being the only guy with "The Judge" in Russia is about as unenvious as a screen door salesman on a submarine.  My favorite handguns are all 9mm CZ, Sig, Walther, or HKs as far as semi autos go. 

Unfortunately, 9mm guns (save for MP5) are crap in Dayz. I never am able to kill anyone but a fresh spawn with a full clip unless I hit them in the head. The CR75 has gotten me killed numerous times. Such a crap gun, only good for zombies at this state/

[hotcakes 348]

Gews, where are you getting these numbers?

The multiplier for 5.56 is 8 and 9.5 for 7.62x39. That's nowhere near 40%. The difference between these cartridges is about a one shot difference, which is barely consequential imho.

[hotcakes 348]

P.S There is no difference between damage done firing cartridges out of different firearms yet. .22 has the same ballistics fired out of the amphibia and the sporter except accuracy.

[-Gews- 7443]

Two things.

 

1. I don't foresee the bit about the PSO-1 happening. If only because they've stated that they're considering things like the SVD for their loot management system. And I don't think a humble 4x scope warrants being lumped in with the SVD's supposed rarity if that were to happen. Now, I think the SVD should be on the "lower end" of their hypothetical loot system with a healthy amount being available (vice it being a 2-3 per hive deal in being the rarest of the rare). But that's a different argument.

 

2. Even if they do as you say, unless it's just patently better than the AKM in all (or most) regards then I still don't think it warrants being as rare as it is and/or will be. Unless the recoil is either prohibitively ridiculous on the AKM, or laughably miniscule on the M4A1, it just cannot be better inasmuch as DayZ is concerned. Even if it performs better, it's still hampered by a variety of commonality issues (largely to do, now, with its ammunition... magazines... and optics/attachments... all only spawning at helicopters).

 

In other words, I don't think it would be helpful to make the AKM worse via making optics rarer for it (from both a practical and "authentic" point of view) and making the M4A1 better via making optics more common.

 

And, just on a personal note, I don't think assault rifles warrant being considered for positions of hyper-rarity. Obviously, I want the M4A1 to be rarer than the AKM. But only marginally.

The M4A1 is a much newer weapon, militaries are more likely to issue M4A1s with optics than M4A1s with only iron sights. In fact it would make sense for M4s to spawn with quad rails, ACOGs, Aimpoints, already on them, but that's unlikely to happen... compared to the AKM, an old weapon, 99%+ never had any form of optics in military service, any AKMs with optics would have been upgraded personally or hodgepodge in small batches. The main reason the M4 is "more modern" than the AK, or M16A1, etc, is the modularity and ease of attaching different optics and such.

So if you looked at the DayZ public hive and counted the percentage of M4A1s with optics and the same for AKMs, the optically-sighted M4A1s should be exponentially higher. But the number of players carrying some form of AK should be much, much higher than those with M4A1s. Just makes sense to me, would feel more authentic.

As far as PSO-1 it's used on SVDs and similar far more than anything else, so I don't see why it should spawn anywhere else, it shouldn't be an AK-equivalent to the ACOG. It just doesn't feel right to have every second AKM wearing a PSO-1. Players could take the choice of putting it on the AK or keeping the SVD instead. SVD should be rare compared to most all weapons currently in the game, or planned, but common compared to any high-end / long-range Western rifles. SVDs aren't "rare", this was something that bugged me in the mod - very difficult to find SVDs or SVD ammo but DMRs around every corner.

 

The multiplier for 5.56 is 8 and 9.5 for 7.62x39. That's nowhere near 40%. The difference between these cartridges is about a one shot difference, which is barely consequential imho.

You square them.

(9.5/8)^2 = 1.41

Edited July 14, 2014 by Gews

[gibonez 3633]

 It just doesn't feel right to have every second AKM wearing a PSO-1.

 

saw this earlier so appropriate.

[Katana67 2907]

The M4A1 is a much newer weapon, militaries are more likely to issue M4A1s with optics than M4A1s with only iron sights. In fact it would make sense for M4s to spawn with quad rails, ACOGs, Aimpoints, already on them, but that's unlikely to happen... compared to the AKM, an old weapon, 99%+ never had any form of optics in military service, any AKMs with optics would have been upgraded personally or hodgepodge in small batches. The main reason the M4 is "more modern" than the AK, or M16A1, etc, is the modularity and ease of attaching different optics and such.

So if you looked at the DayZ public hive and counted the percentage of M4A1s with optics and the same for AKMs, the optically-sighted M4A1s should be exponentially higher. But the number of players carrying some form of AK should be much, much higher than those with M4A1s. Just makes sense to me, would feel more authentic.

As far as PSO-1 it's used on SVDs and similar far more than anything else, so I don't see why it should spawn anywhere else, it shouldn't be an AK-equivalent. It just doesn't feel right to have every second AKM wearing a PSO-1. Players could take the choice of putting it on the AK or keeping the SVD instead. SVD should be rare compared to most all weapons currently in the game, or planned, but common compared to any high-end / long-range Western rifles. SVDs aren't "rare", this was something that bugged me in the mod - very difficult to find SVDs or SVD ammo but DMRs around every corner.

 

I don't agree. Then you'd have piles of unused optics/attachments laying around while someone is trying to find an ostensibly rare M4A1, then once that rare weapon is found, it becomes inconsequential to equip because you'd have to make the optics relatively common across the board in order to accomplish what you've outlined (i.e. making a given weapon rare, but also having the use of optics more common on said weapon).

 

The main advantage in terms of modularity, in my view, that the M4A1 should have is in the ability to attach generic (meaning 1913-compatible) attachments. Whereas other weapons like the AKM (and perhaps weapons like the G3 and/or FAL) rely on weapon-specific attachments such as the PSO-1 (like the Zeiss [iIRC] and SUIT scope respectively). The "generic" optics should be rarer than weapon-specific optics as a general rule of thumb, owing to their ability to attach to a variety of weapons. The disparity is offset in the weapon-specific optics being less ubiquitous. So they're spawning more often relative to their "generic" counterparts, but you're less likely to find one that fits your specific weapon. Whereas with "generic" attachments, they spawn less frequently but apply to a wider variety of weapons (which would ostensibly be made rarer as a partial consequence).

 

I don't have any issue with the AKM being able to use the PSO-1, insofar as the PSO-1 is made rarer. I find PSO-1s far more often than I ever found ACOGs. I probably find as many PSO-1s in one or two trips to NWAF than I ever found ACOGs in the six or so months that the standalone has been out.

 

That's the true issue now, in my opinion. The PSO-1 is just too easy to come across. I honest to god, found at least 15 PSO-1s (who knows how many rails, mags, and folding stocks) before I found one AKM. A potential fix for this could be embodied with how the mod treated certain magnified optics. How often did you come across an M16A2 versus an M16A4 w/ ACOG? Substitute the M16A2 with the AKM and substitute the M16A4 w/ ACOG with just the PSO-1. That should remedy the issue you have of having "every second AKM wearing a PSO-1."

 

Regardless of the PSO-1's plausibility to be found, I don't feel that a 4x scope warrants being hyper-rare or regulated by a broad loot control scheme. So lumping the PSO-1 in with the SVD just seems unnecessary to me.

 

I personally think they should opt for the approach of having the PSO-1 be the Warsaw Pact equivalent of the ACOG, in being able to be mounted on most AK platform assault rifles. This assumes that for the time being, we won't be seeing an exponential increase in the number of redundant attachments. And they should then give the SVD a dedicated optic with a higher magnification, like a POSP 8x42 (in tandem with other things, like perhaps adding a few more high-er magnification scopes so that the LRS isn't the end-all-be-all scope).

 

 

But, again, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. We appear to be coming at it with two different objectives in mind.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Katana67

[q.S Sachiel 470]

But the aesthetic isn't in and of itself a motivator for me. I didn't crawl all over the map to find a FAL because I thought it was cooler than the M14 (which I do).

 

There's more to a weapon than just its own rarity. Which is why I think the M4A1 need not be hyper-rare, as it also relies on ostensibly uncommon/rare ammunition, magazines and attachments. So you may not be able to find 5.56x45 for a while, so you'd have to ditch that weapon in favor of another if the situation didn't suit it.

 

I have no issue with a relatively linear weapon hierarchy. The issue was, in the mod, that the hierarchy wasn't protracted or varied enough. You could find top-tier weapons pretty much everywhere, because the top-tier weapons were just uncommon weapons (like the DMR). Likewise, the "tiers" in this hierarchy were poorly defined... because weapons really only had three concerns (i.e. the rarity of the conjoined ammunition/magazines, the performance of the weapon, and the performance of the inseparable attachments). This has since been improved on, allowing each weapon to have different capabilities which are dependent on more things (i.e. the rarity of separate ammunition and magazines, the rarity of separate attachments, and the performance of the weapon).

 

So, in other words, they can better balance the weapon rarity by having more data points from which to vary the capabilities of each weapon.

I think i'm getting what you're saying?

that the criteria for rarity should be broader, to 'spread' the values out?

 

i still reckon they should just 'flood' ie-10-20 weapons more the 'market' and let the subtle differences decide the winners, then tweak the left-behinds.  But at the end of the day, these weapons are going to perform rather similarly, it's not borderlands... and i don't see handling being to robust in DayZSA at the moment, so it's just down to rof/aesthetic/damage/spread?

 

I'd still say the M4 performs pretty well in CQB, where the AK tends to jump quite a bit at short and longer ranges, but very well in midrange.  It's these fine subtleties that I'd like to see, where weapon A is most useful in scenario 1, but less than B in 2, etc... ranges for accuracy/reliability, spread for suppression/fillaroomwithlead.

but i'm afraid i've gone off topic.  Could even throw in some attachments specific to certain weapons like VOG-9 or M23grenade launchers (as an example only, prior to cod kiddy cat calls ;) ).

 

I kill with AKM in 2-3 hits, as with SKS to chest. haven't experienced lower body for either weapon yet.

Edited July 14, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[hiniberus 122]

H-hey gais, don't you think the M4 is RAF (Rare as fuck) because they released a new assault rifle that somewhat fits the picture better and they want that tested /(owo)\;;;