A case for proceedural/random loot sites

[xalienax 621]

So there are well known issues with server hoping and loot-farming. there has been since the dawn of the mod, and i (personally) think that there needs to be more clever use of the "random" loot locations the mod used (choper crash).

 

Now i know rocket said they didn't want to do random events for what ever silly reason, but i dont care about rocket- I care about gameplay quality, and i think this is a mechanism worth revisiting. It allows us to start considering rarity as a real balance mechanism again (especially for weapons).

 

Now first, let me explain how i think weapons should relate to accessibility and avilability;

By moving everything in the "red" section (and the ammo + Mags) for them into randomly generated events such as heli crash/wrecked army truck, etc. we solve several key issues

 

-> High power weapons are an option, but intensive to get ammo for them

-> We reward people who traverse the map with not just MORE loot, but BETTER loot.

-> We prevent the ability to FARM top-end gear by server hoping in one location.

 

Aditionally the stuff in the Yellow section should be oposite the spawn areas on the map.

 

-> basic pistols (dark green) should be somehwat avilable near spawns as a form of self defense.

-> Hunting/Sporting gear and weapons (light blue) should be in outlying towns/villages. this makes sense geographicly and encourages an inland progression.

-> Police/Military-police/Low-end mil (yellowish green) beocmes increasingly dispersed througout the interior of the map (perhaps checkpoints, smaller encampments setup during the spread of the virus)

 

*edit: I didnt include the wide variety of mele weapons as most of them are common implements and should neither be rare sor time consuming to find. most are widley available household items that would be EVERYWHERE in any town or city. Bows would fall into the nearby "hunter/sporting" category.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Sovetsky

[xalienax 621]

Added poll on the matter of expanding on "randomly generated lootsites".

 

also edited to acknowledge mele and crafted weapons.

[noblebrutus@live.co.uk 26]

The Heli crashes were a great part of the mod imo, really hope this feature gets expanded upon.

 

The way I see it, the idea of these random spawns is not 'forcing gameplay situations' but rather facilitating them. I know Rocket would rather someone shoot down a player flown helicopter and then somebody stumble across the wreckage which would be awesome but even when introduced it would be such a rare occurrence that most people wouldn't likely experience it. In the mod I found the idea of these random high level spawns a great reason to go exploring round the map not just head north. It also gave a really good use for vehicles as other than going to Cherno/AElektro for med supplies and then back north there was little reason to use them.

[rickyriot 1009]

I'm slightly concerned you spent time making that graph.

 

Edit: Anyway the point is moot. Specific loot should be based on the context of the location. It's just downright stupid to suggest that nothing should spawn in the NEAF or Berezino because it's close(ish) to a spawn yet a random shed near Zeleno should be stuffed with M4's because it's difficult to get to.

Edited June 16, 2014 by ricp

[p4triot 207]

Rarity with an endless suply of spawn (doesnt matter if chances are 0.000001%) are no rarity. Countless videogames prove this, many clans and nolifers (and worst, nolifer clans) laugh at you and your "rarity" excuse. Rarity in this terms means only them are gonna have those weapons.

 

What we wanted long before and Rocket already say is going to do, is some sort of loot control with a mathematical algorithm instead of just a fixed %, where high end items are, in fact, limited. And his % is based on the amount of people already holding one, or even if you already have one, changes of spawning another near you decrease a lot (which means if you travel with a group you are likely to be the only one with that weapon forever).

 

Idea for this method are many and varied, but I hope, whatever do the devs, keep it secret. So no one would know how to exploit the system to increase % rate of spawning.

 

Needless to say that with this, your rarity system based on random locations renders useless. Rarity is done by itself, whatever players do, when all weapons are spawned, no more will spawn. No more clans with full arsenals of AS50.

Edited June 16, 2014 by p4triot

[xalienax 621]

Rarity with an endless suply of spawn (doesnt matter if chances are 0.000001%) are no rarity. Countless videogames prove this, many clans and nolifers (and worst, nolifer clans) laugh at you and your "rarity" excuse. Rarity in this terms means only them are gonna have those weapons.

 

What we wanted long before and Rocket already say is going to do, is some sort of loot control with a mathematical algorithm instead of just a fixed %, where high end items are, in fact, limited. And his % is based on the amount of people already holding one, or even if you already have one, changes of spawning another near you decrease a lot (which means if you travel with a group you are likely to be the only one with that weapon forever).

 

Idea for this method are many and varied, but I hope, whatever do the devs, keep it secret. So no one would know how to exploit the system to increase % rate of spawning.

 

Needless to say that with this, your rarity system based on random locations renders useless. Rarity is done by itself, whatever players do, when all weapons are spawned, no more will spawn. No more clans with full arsenals of AS50.

Thats the reward for dedication. if you wish to spend 10hrs a day combing the maps and maintintg helis on 3 different servers to do it with so you can heli crash hunt ever server restart your rewarded with access to better stuff, ath the price of having to maintain a motorpool to circulate the map in a timely manner and put an inordinate amount of time into keeping an ammo supply for your weapons.

 

and all of this doesnt stop some lucky freshie with an M4 caping you and taking that AS 50

[xalienax 621]

I'm slightly concerned you spent time making that graph.

 

Edit: Anyway the point is moot. Specific loot should be based on the context of the location. It's just downright stupid to suggest that nothing should spawn in the NEAF or Berezino because it's close(ish) to a spawn yet a random shed near Zeleno should be stuffed with M4's because it's difficult to get to.

Im not saying they shouldnt be contextual. military in military compunds for sure. what i AM suggesting is that the further that compound is from the spawn area the better stuff it will have. EG; NEAF and balota barracks having basic assault rifles where as NWAF would have high end stuff like military snipers and LMGs

[p4triot 207]

Thats the reward for dedication. if you wish to spend 10hrs a day combing the maps and maintintg helis on 3 different servers to do it with so you can heli crash hunt ever server restart your rewarded with access to better stuff, ath the price of having to maintain a motorpool to circulate the map in a timely manner and put an inordinate amount of time into keeping an ammo supply for your weapons.

 

and all of this doesnt stop some lucky freshie with an M4 caping you and taking that AS 50

 

That's precisely the problem. As I stated at the beginning, problem with your system is the endless supply of spawns, eventually the servers endup with hundreds of high end weapons just changing hands, anyone you kill is most likely to have one, which becomes yours after that (until somone kills u). Item isn't rare anymore, for anyone.

 

This is the same problem on any MMORPG with those überitems being theorically suuuuuperrare, eventually everyone has one, and its no longer rare.

 

To ensure high end items are rare now and in two years from now, the only way to do that is to limit the quantity of existent units.

Edited June 16, 2014 by p4triot

[Katana67 2907]

Rarity with an endless suply of spawn (doesnt matter if chances are 0.000001%) are no rarity. Countless videogames prove this, many clans and nolifers (and worst, nolifer clans) laugh at you and your "rarity" excuse.

 

I think you misunderstand the implications of "rarity."

 

It's not just X amount of people have Y because it spawns.

 

It's X amount of people are likely/unlikely to have Y, at any given time, because it spawns at Z rate.

 

In other words, it's less about how many of said item are out there at any given time... and how LIKELY it is for someone to have them, at any given time.

 

That's not to say that it's incompatible with a fixed loot management system as is proposed by the developers. But you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater in your dismissal of the concept.

 

If something has a .0000001% chance of spawning, then you're going to see that weapon less often than something with a 5% chance of spawning.

 

EDIT - On-topic, though, I'm not sure procedural/dynamic loot spawns are necessarily the way to go. I mean, you don't really seem to be even describing a procedural/dynamic loot spawn type of system in the OP either. You're essentially, from what I can make out, just advocating for two things - high-end loot spawning at "random locations" (i.e. helicopter crashes) and an overall loot bias tweak inland.

 

If it were procedural/dynamic, then the loot spawns would be allocated based upon need and/or vacancies. Vice quality.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Katana67

[p4triot 207]

I think you misunderstand the implications of "rarity."

 

It's not just X amount of people have Y because it spawns.

 

It's X amount of people are likely/unlikely to have Y, at any given time, because it spawns at Z rate.

 

In other words, it's less about how many of said item are out there at any given time... and how LIKELY it is for someone to have them, at any given time.

 

That's not to say that it's incompatible with a fixed loot management system as is proposed by the developers. But you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater in your dismissal of the concept.

 

If something has a .0000001% chance of spawning, then you're going to see that weapon less often than something with a 5% chance of spawning.

 

EDIT - On-topic, though, I'm not sure procedural/dynamic loot spawns are necessarily the way to go. I mean, you don't really seem to be even describing a procedural/dynamic loot spawn type of system in the OP either. You're essentially, from what I can make out, just advocating for two things - high-end loot spawning at "random locations" (i.e. helicopter crashes) and an overall loot bias tweak inland.

 

If it were procedural/dynamic, then the loot spawns would be allocated based upon need and/or vacancies. Vice quality.

 

I agree with you, you just when short on your own topic. If something has a 0.000001% change of spawning, but the spawn never stops, eventually there will be thousands of those items around. Everyone will have one, not because they find it freshly spawned, but because the find it on someone elses corpse/tent/stash all the time.

 

Given a 0.00001% spawning chance for items in a persistent world like Day Z will only render those items "rare" the first weeks. And for proofs, the mod. I used to play on a private hive where the admins used to restart the hive every 3 months because of this. At that point the amount of NVG, range finders and high end weapons around was simply too much and too common.

 

An item with 5% spawn rate but with a limited amount of existing units would be on the long term much more rare.

Edited June 16, 2014 by p4triot

[Katana67 2907]

I agree with you, you just when short on your own topic. If something has a 0.000001% change of spawning, but the spawn never stops, eventually there will be thousands of those items around. Everyone will have one, not because they find it freshly spawned, but because the find it on someone elses corpse/tent/stash all the time.

 

Given a 0.00001% spawning chance for items in a persistent world like Day Z will only render those items "rare" the first weeks. And for proofs, the mod. I used to play on a private hive where the admins used to restart the hive every 3 months because of this. At that point the amount of NVG, range finders and high end weapons around was simply too much and too common.

 

An item with 5% spawn rate but with a limited amount of existing units would be on the long term much more rare.

 

Right, but rarity is always contextual. AS50s were rare in DayZ, relative to SMLEs, even though their appearance was a "common" occurrence.

 

If people were interested in hoarding SMLE's (spawning at, for example, 5%), they could do so easier (and thus get more of them) than say an M4 CCO SD (spawning at, for example, .0000001%).

 

You're right, folks will eventually get something rare simply by virtue of the spawns repeating themselves. But it's not insignificant, the rate at which something spawns is a good (albeit flawed, as are [arguably] all approaches to loot) method of making things rare in terms of the effort required to obtain said item.

 

You still have to expend time/effort/risk in order to constantly be looting something, in search of that weapon which spawns .0000001% of the time. Far more time/effort/risk expended than something which spawns 5% of the time.

 

The issue of respawning loot in a persistent world is a good issue for you to bring up. But ultimately, even if there's a fixed amount of loot (i.e. 5x AS50s per hive/server, versus AS50s spawning .00000001% of the time) there's still a percentage at which you're likely to see/encounter a given item at any given time anyhow. In other words, if you're likely to see 1 out of 15 AS50's .0000001% (insert whatever variable you wish) of the time, then that could be simulated by making AS50's spawn .0000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

 

I think a lot of the problems with the mod's respawning loot were to do with the fact that, for one, loot spawned pretty dern quickly. Second, loot could be transferred to safe servers visa-vie public hives. And third, the loot percentages weren't adequately taking into account the fact that loot respawns. So, you can have loot respawning and rare items, the rates just have to be different from a "fixed" loot management system.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Katana67

[xalienax 621]

That's precisely the problem. As I stated at the beginning, problem with your system is the endless supply of spawns, eventually the servers endup with hundreds of high end weapons just changing hands, anyone you kill is most likely to have one, which becomes yours after that (until somone kills u). Item isn't rare anymore, for anyone.

 

This is the same problem on any MMORPG with those überitems being theorically suuuuuperrare, eventually everyone has one, and its no longer rare.

 

To ensure high end items are rare now and in two years from now, the only way to do that is to limit the quantity of existent units.

Also having no-shared ammunition helps with this. if say the as50 only take AS50 magazine and .50BMG rounds guess what. make .50BMG very low spawn rate. suddenly it doesnt matter if thiers 500,000,000 AS50's in circulation when hitttiing 200+ spawn spots may yeild 10 rounds of ammo. you target the consumable end of the sepctrum (ammo) not just the weapon.

[cels 43]

The Heli crashes were a great part of the mod imo, really hope this feature gets expanded upon.

 

 

I thought I saw something about those coming back...

 

 

As far as the OP.. There was a post awhile ago from one the devs.. All the weapons will eventually be extremely rare, sorta like the plans of what they are doing with the helicopter engine. The only reason you have sorta of a abundance at the moment is because its not the finished version yet. Guns, ammo, other things as well. Theres alot right now because its testing..  As it gets closer to being out of beta, all these things are going to be alot more rare. This is one of things out of many being done in the future to make it alot more of a hardcore survival game.. Finding a m4a1 easily or any kind of gun for that matter, also hundreds rounds of ammo, supposedly it wont be like this once its closer to being out of beta.

Edited June 17, 2014 by cels

[KingOfTime 267]

I think I like this idea. This, combined with hive-level management of loot spawns could work out quite nicely.