Addressing the Weapon Calibers - Compromises and Proposal

[darksteeljorge 96]

So this guy wants to take out the current calibers and add new one ? (someone explain me please)

[Katana67 2907]

So this guy wants to take out the current calibers and add new one ? (someone explain me please)

 

No, no calibers would be removed. The proposal calls for the addition of FOUR NEW calibers.

[terminal_boy 860]

Again, this is for the purposes of balancing the loot. Not simulating pure realism.

 

And .30-06 and .300 WM are some of THE MOST common hunting calibers in the world.

That's because the USA has a bazzillion more civilian hunting rifles than the rest of the world out together.

Doesn't mean that they're common outside the USA.

Pop quiz: Is 7.62x51 NATO the same as .308 Winchester?

[Katana67 2907]

That's because the USA has a bazzillion more civilian hunting rifles than the rest of the world out together.

Doesn't mean that they're common outside the USA.

Pop quiz: Is 7.62x51 NATO the same as .308 Winchester?

 

No, but many weapons which can fire one, can fire the other. Has to do with the headspace in the chamber, differences in thickness of the brass, and max PSI. Similarly to the .223/5.56x45 NATO divide.

 

Here's an image of a stack of both .308 Winchester and .30-06 in a Czech gun shop.

 

 

Not that any of this is relevant, as the objective of this proposal isn't to simulate pure realism.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67

[terminal_boy 860]

I stand corrected. Is that .30-30 I spy on the right? Must be a load of John Wayne fans out that way...

Good old Sellier & Bellot. I might use their ammo in a zombie apocalypse. Right after I ran out of rocks.

[darksteeljorge 96]

No, no calibers would be removed. The proposal calls for the addition of FOUR NEW calibers.

Ohh i think i get it so he is propossing to add these 4 new calibers and make guns that use them 

[Evil Minion 943]

Why not just give generic, blanket names to the different types of ammunition? That way there's less confusion.

Example: Handgun Bullets, Magnum Rounds, Rifle Ammo, etc.

Each type would vary in rarity. Handgun Bullets would probably be the most common, and everything else would be less and less common.

I'm not sure if this would be a great solution, but hey, I'm only thinking out loud here. Thoughts anyone?

Thats either too simple or too misleading.

 

it would either mean that every weapon of a type (pistol, rifle etc.) would fire the same ammo - reducing the impact of different rarities and making them too interchangeable. It also does not give credit to the different properieties of the calibers (weight for example).

 

Or you would have some rifles that don't shoot rifle ammo, some pistols that don't shoot pistoil ammo etc. Here you would keep the gameplay and balance elements but the user would get misleading information.

 

I like the current system and would like to keep it. The question is how to progress:

- more calibers increase realism but also make it much harder to find the right ammunition (thus adding either frustration or abundance of ammo) and are more work for the devs

- less calibers make it easier to balance out loot and weapons but reduce realism or weapon choices

The OP is a good idea how to find a compromise that does give us realistic properties (if the game gives me a weapon I want it to behave like that weapon) without drowning in a sea of different cartridges.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Evil Minion

[a_ruttle 199]

There aren't even that many ammo types that need to be added, 7.62x54R, 5.45, 9x18 and a small number of hunting rifle cartridges such as 30-06 or .338. It's just a sign of laziness putting in so much attention to detail then dropping it as so many people now own the game and the majority of those don't really care,

'but I have a feeling the wider community doesn't give a crap as long as it looks cool' - Chris Torchia.... That there is the type of attitude to game development that you see in CoD or anything produced by EA, DayZ is a cash cow, they've barely raised it but now its time to milk it already.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

 

 

 

Well, if that's all you saw then I'm sorry?

 

You can still have Makarovs, CZs (whatever you mean by that), Skorpions, and the like... they'll just be firing 9x19 Parabellum. Some compromises have to be made (even though the majority of those weapons can be chambered in 9x19).

 

There's nothing more "survivor" like about 9x18 than .338 Lapua, they're hunks of brass, lead, and powder.

 

 

 

Then why add 30-06? Couldn't this "Compromise" just leave the Blazer as it is? My understanding is the Blazer doesn't use 30-06 anyway, so what would be the point? Why not 7.92 Mauser, so we atleast get a G98?

But a Parabellum Makarov, P-64, and other 9x18 guns isn't even possible. The guns are to small and not made for such a High-pressure (Lol) round like 9x19.

 

by CZ i meant CZ-82/3, a Czech 9x18 Service Pistol.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

I can't wait until user MODs come out... i am frustrated enough with this shit. My brother and i already have plans on what to add (stored files on our computers). I will just play the game as is for now, but i CANNOT wait for MOD support to come out.. I can't believe that for a game based on realism and surviving (saying that the game is built to be very hard), is actually making it easier. Fewer calibers = fewer weapons and easier ways to tell what ammo is which. More calibers should force people to read more carefully... that's my input, I'm done with this discussion so go ahead and reply to me, but do not expect a reply from me. God Bless.....

Oh god yes. Since the mod days i don't know how many times I've made lists of guns and Mod features i wanted to add. I've even gone as far to Customize maps and Make custom crates with the Guns from Arma mods.

Unfortunately, that's as far as my Mod-Making skills go.

[Katana67 2907]

Then why add 30-06? Couldn't this "Compromise" just leave the Blazer as it is? My understanding is the Blazer doesn't use 30-06 anyway, so what would be the point? Why not 7.92 Mauser, so we atleast get a G98?

But a Parabellum Makarov, P-64, and other 9x18 guns isn't even possible. The guns are to small and not made for such a High-pressure (Lol) round like 9x19.

 

by CZ i meant CZ-82/3, a Czech 9x18 Service Pistol.

 

The Blaser B95 can be chambered in any number of rounds, .30-06 is one of them. .30-06 is one of the most popular hunting rounds in the world, able to be found across Europe (including the Czech Republic).

 

.30-06 is there to give these "low-end" weapons (like the Longhorn, Blaze 95, and whatever hunting rifles they choose to add) a category that's separate from 7.62x51, which I'm proposing should be used in rare weapons... not rare AND common weapons.

 

Again, you can have these weapons (Gewehr 98, Makarov PM, P-64, etc.) but you'll have to compromise on the adherence to realism to get them. Meaning, you'll have to accept them firing calibers which aren't possible/commonly seen in-game.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

The Blaser B95 can be chambered in any number of rounds, .30-06 is one of them. .30-06 is one of the most popular hunting rounds in the world, able to be found across Europe (including the Czech Republic).

 

.30-06 is there to give these "low-end" weapons (like the Longhorn, Blaze 95, and whatever hunting rifles they choose to add) a category that's separate from 7.62x51, which I'm proposing should be used in rare weapons... not rare AND common weapons.

 

Again, you can have these weapons (Gewehr 98, Makarov PM, P-64, etc.) but you'll have to compromise on the adherence to realism to get them. Meaning, you'll have to accept them firing calibers which aren't possible/commonly seen in-game.

But really... 30-06 is very similar to 7.62x51 in performance at Normal range, but 9mm Makarov and 7.92 are VERY different (Not saying 7.92 is a Must-have, just an example) and would make for an Entirely different weapon. If they're trying to have less Calibers that are pretty much the same, than theres no reason for 30-06. Something like 30-30 or some other Shit would provide different Gameplay and justified Being added.

[Katana67 2907]

But really... 30-06 is very similar to 7.62x51 in performance at Normal range, but 9mm Makarov and 7.92 are VERY different (Not saying 7.92 is a Must-have, just an example) and would make for an Entirely different weapon. If they're trying to have less Calibers that are pretty much the same, than theres no reason for 30-06. Something like 30-30 or some other Shit would provide different Gameplay and justified Being added.

 

The proposal specifically states that the objective isn't to provide for differently performing rounds, it's to create a delineation as to make ammunition loot balance varied (vice ubiquitous).

 

From the OP

 

 

- New rounds may not actually perform any differently from their counterparts, the division is solely there to provide for a better distinction in terms of rarity

 

I don't care, replace .30-06 with whatever you wish. I picked it because it's a common sporting round, and a plethora of hunting weapons are available in .30-06.

 

There's no reason for 7.62x54R either, other than to give Warsaw Pact rifles a different ammunition to draw upon than 7.62x51 NATO. Hence why the purpose of this proposal isn't to provide for different down-range ballistic profiles, but to provide for different pools of ammunition to draw upon as to not make every rifle rely on 7.62x51 NATO (because it's detrimental for loot). Likewise, people have hissy fits over the Mosin firing 7.62x51 (and will probably do so as well if the SVD and/or PKM are added). Hence why the other aspect of this proposal, is to provide for a synthesis between pragmatic gameplay concerns (i.e. diversifying the ammunition loot table) and appeasing those who value realism.

 

You can make the case for a certain round being included because it performs differently, but that isn't the objective of what I'm proposing.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Katana67

[Chaingunfighter 917]

The proposal specifically states that the objective isn't to provide for differently performing rounds, it's to create a delineation as to make ammunition loot balance varied (vice ubiquitous).

 

From the OP

 

 

I don't care, replace .30-06 with whatever you wish. I picked it because it's a common sporting round, and a plethora of hunting weapons are available in .30-06.

 

There's no reason for 7.62x54R either, other than to give Warsaw Pact rifles a different ammunition to draw upon than 7.62x51 NATO. Hence why the purpose of this proposal isn't to provide for different down-range ballistic profiles, but to provide for different pools of ammunition to draw upon as to not make every rifle rely on 7.62x51 NATO (because it's detrimental for loot). Likewise, people have hissy fits over the Mosin firing 7.62x51 (and will probably do so as well if the SVD and/or PKM are added). Hence why the other aspect of this proposal, is to provide for a synthesis between pragmatic gameplay concerns (i.e. diversifying the ammunition loot table) and appeasing those who value realism.

 

You can make the case for a certain round being included because it performs differently, but that isn't the objective of what I'm proposing.

Don't know about you, but I think the best gameplay-wise decision would be to have a plethora of different ammunition. I know your system is designed to compensate for both the devs wanting to limit the ammo (at least current) and the community whining about guns not firing the correct calibers, but on an overall I feel it would be better. They don't need to go over the top with like 60 ammo types, but it would be nice to see more than just generalized ammo types. Gameplay-wise, it might mean that some weapons will not see extensive use while others will be used a lot, but that's not something I feel is necessarily bad This could also be addressed with the rarity of the guns themselves).

My best solution would be to allow 7.62x54mmR and some guns (like the Mosin) to be common, but have the spawn-rate for PU scopes, LRS, and bipods be vastly decreased.

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

Pop quiz: Is 7.62x51 NATO the same as .308 Winchester?

 

Their interchange is considered safe by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI)

[alexeistukov 272]

Everyone please vote on the poll put up in the Community's Weapon Suggestion List.

The poll is entirely about this topic and your stance on this topic is critical for information.

Thank you and God Bless.

[w1lg5r 70]

I'd like them to add 9x39mm for VALs and VSSs

[Katana67 2907]

I'd like them to add 9x39mm for VALs and VSSs

 

Unfortunately, that's largely what sparked the initial debate. While I totally welcome 9x39 and the AS Val/VSS/SR-3 or 9A-91/VSK-94, they'd only really need to put in one of those weapons (probably an SR-3M, given that it's more modular and they can do more with it). They're all pretty much aesthetically and functionally the same, so I could only foresee them needing to put one weapon in. So it's not like 9x39 would allow them to put in whole families of weapons. Which is counter to what they've stated as their goals with ammunition, in being able to maximize their return.

 

But, Torchia did say "current loot sys" at the end, so who knows what'll happen whenever they implement loot management.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/195705-no-specialized-cartridges-torchia-tweet/

Edited June 2, 2014 by Katana67

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I'd like them to add 9x39mm for VALs and VSSs

The problem with 9x39mm is it's only used in a few weapon types; the VAL/VSS/VSK-94, which are all based on the same platform, The SR-3/9A-91, the OTs-14/Groza, which also have 7.62x39mm variants, and the AK-9, which there are plenty of other AK variants to choose from.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, that's largely what sparked the initial debate. While I totally welcome 9x39 and the AS Val/VSS/SR-3 or 9A-91/VSK-94, they'd only really need to put in one of those weapons (probably an SR-3M, given that it's more modular and they can do more with it). They're all pretty much aesthetically and functionally the same, so I could only foresee them needing to put one weapon in. So it's not like 9x39 would allow them to put in whole families of weapons. Which is counter to what they've stated as their goals with ammunition, in being able to maximize their return.

 

But, Torchia did say "current loot sys" at the end, so who knows what'll happen whenever they implement loot management.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/195705-no-specialized-cartridges-torchia-tweet/

 

Apparently it's also used in the AK-9, but there are plenty of other AKs that use 7.62x39mm/5.56x45mm or even 5.45x39mm that would perform better. Chris Torchia has interest in the VSS Vintorez, though, so they could probably get away with having an SR-3, 9A-91, VSS & OTS-14 if they wanted it to be, at the very least, extensive.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

7.62x39 and 5.45x39 can coexist, peacefully. I hope.

 

If not, I will personally buy myself a express plane ticket to Prague, kidnap Marek Spanel and force him to watch The Room with Tommy Wiseau over and over again, until my demands are met.

 

Until then...

 

SPANELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

[Katana67 2907]

7.62x39 and 5.45x39 can coexist, peacefully. I hope.

 

I feel that one or the other is redundant. If we assume they're adopting calibers based upon the number of weapons these calibers will provide, whilst also taking into account their desire to have as few calibers as is possible, then it doesn't make sense for them to add both.

 

Because pretty much every 5.45x39 (a round we don't have) weapon that I'd envision them adding has a 7.62x39 counterpart (a round we do have).

 

RPK/RPK-74M

 

AKM/AK-74M

 

AKMSU/AKS-74U

 

Plus, you've then got the RPD (a rather unique belt-fed LMG) chambered in 7.62x39 and not 5.45x39.

 

So it doesn't really maximize their return in adding both, when they can add just one and get the same weapons lineup out of it.

 

Granted, I don't agree with this approach out of a concern for a more granular loot balance. But, it still is something to consider.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Katana67

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I feel that one or the other is redundant. If we assume they're adopting calibers based upon the number of weapons these calibers will provide, whilst also taking into account their desire to has as few calibers as is possible, then it doesn't make sense for them to add both.

 

Because pretty much every 5.45x39 (a round we don't have) weapon that I'd envision them adding has a 7.62x39 counterpart (a round we do have).

 

RPK/RPK-74M

 

AKM/AK-74M

 

AKMSU/AKS-74U

 

Plus, you've then got the RPD (a rather unique belt-fed LMG) chambered in 7.62x39 and not 5.45x39.

 

So it doesn't really maximize their return in adding both, when they can add just one and get the same weapons lineup out of it.

 

Granted, I don't agree with this approach out of a concern for a more granular loot balance. But, it still is something to consider.

 

It is VERY pragmatic development design. I was fairly disappointed to hear this from people who usually make fairly in-depth and realistic games (ArmA), but I can't do a damn thing about it.

 

This is one of the first times I've seriously been angered by something they say.

[11tw 106]

I doubt I really understand the proposal, but you seem to know what you are talking about- have some beans!