Why Were Helicopters "Overpowered" In The Vanilla Mod?

[Etherimp 1323]

A couple of counter-points

 

1: "Everyone you played against was noobs, and that's why they didn't find your camp."

 

Wrong. We didn't hide our camp in debug, and we didn't hide it on the border of the map, and we didn't hide it in "obvious" spots. I can't give away exact locations, but suffice it to say that there were only 3 ways our camp would be found;

 

-Hackers (most common)

-Lucky noobs who get lost and stumble upon it (never happened..)

-Someone who owned another helicopter (which we removed the possibility of)

 

Our hiding spots were not spots you would go looking for a heli... Nor were they on top of buildings. 

Furthermore, there are different spots which are good for different heli's. The Littlebirds we would hide separately from the Huey and the Mi17 because the Littlebirds could be hidden inside of actual forest, which made them that much more difficult to find. If our huey/mi17 got stolen, we would just get the BLB and hunt it back down, if it wasn't destroyed.

 

2. Most people suck at flying heli's and often crash them or get shot down.. If this happens, we would simply be ready with a new set of parts, and wait for them to respawn. If you know the restart cycle of the server, it's easy to predict when the heli will respawn.

 

3. Re: "Most camps are empty."

 

That's why you always destroy tents/stashes when you find them.. So that you know any tents/stashes you find on your regular server are new, and thus usually contain loot, or are so new that they contain nothing.. in which case you leave them for 1-2 days, then return, rob them, and smash them.

 

 

4. Re: "It's fair play.."

 

Yeah, it's fair play in the mod, but that doesn't make it fun. Part of what makes DayZ fun and exciting as a new player is building yourself up from nothing, to having a camp. People only have so much patience.. It's not that they will quit immediately upon losing 1 vehicle/camp.. But if they spent 8 hours hunting down supplies to get a vehicle, then finally get one, hide it, and then come back the next day and it's gone.. they may do this 2-3 more times before finally giving up and not quitting the game, just quitting the server. I don't blame them. I would too.

 

 

5. Re: "Heli's/vehicles only last 1-2 play sessions anyway, otherwise they're stolen/destroyed."

 

Only if 

 

a. You are bad at hiding them

b. You do not already control all 4 helicopters

c. Someone else on the server owns a helicopter

d. The server is EXTREMELY populated (60 players regularily, like US3480).

 

 

6."It's dickish to destroy tents/vehicles, but if that's how you wanna play, go for it."

 

Yeah, it's dickish.. But if you don't do it, someone else will.. This is exactly why heli's are bad. Normally, if I am running around on foot (or in a car/truck), and I find a tent, it's a special treat and/or the person sucked at hiding it and it deserves to get smashed. However, if I am in a helicopter, there is literally no way you're hiding your camp from me.

 

7. "I don't believe that you had all the heli's on the map for that long, unless everyone you played against sucked."

 

Nope.. We did.. And the server was populated, and there were plenty of good groups of players on our server. We went to battle with them many times.. I have about a dozen people that can attest to the fact that we did, indeed, control the map for that long.

 

8. The hiding spots on the map are only going to become fewer and fewer.. With all of the additions of new buildings/cities, it's going to be very difficult for people to hide tents/vehicles for very long, because more of the map is going to be active, especially when 100+ player servers are a reality... This actually favors people who have heli's even more. 

[Etherimp 1323]

I thought they solved that by making the CS spawn in over time while the server was up?

 

 

Server starts -> 3 Crash sites spawn

Every hour after restart, 1 more spawns at a random location.

 

So, after every restart you loot 3 crash sites, log them, and loot others that are not in your log as you fly around.

 

Honestly the only peeps I can see who think they are OP have never engaged one from the ground. Hell iv had one spot me......set itelf into auto hover then waist both door guns ammo trying to shoot me as I hid behind a tree.....the whole while cussing because im a fresh spawn with no gun and hes giving me a golden opportunity......auto hover. Lost count of the nab pilots that blast in there and hit auto....easy picking

 

 

We're not saying they're overpowered at killing people.. we're saying they're overpowered at map control.

[FrostDMG 398]

Have you played Overwatch? Things like that happen all the time, plus helis above, they only add to the fun.

 

I hated overwatch, only mod I really played was DayZero and Vanilla.

[Karmaterror 982]

Server starts -> 3 Crash sites spawn

Every hour after restart, 1 more spawns at a random location.

 

So, after every restart you loot 3 crash sites, log them, and loot others that are not in your log as you fly around.

 

 

 

 

We're not saying they're overpowered at killing people.. we're saying they're overpowered at map control.

 

Ahh I see now, tnx

 

My point was that for all that "map control" they are so fragile and exposed. Its not all a one way street of "heli guy has all the advantage and no disadvantage" you sacrifice a lot to have that speed, especialy the security of your campsit ;)

 

There is always a tradeoff, theres enough drawbacks to a heli to offset the advantages. So much so my group has gifted our fair share of them to new players. It becomes too much hastle keeping it fuelled, repairing it constantly when you get fired upon....hitting power lines and loosing your only ghillie suit LOL :D

 

I could argue a pushbike is overpowered because it allows near silent movement at reasonable speed on most terrain....and never needs fuel. So while I don't get "god view" I get unlimited time in the woods to hunt. But to offset that its got no carry capacity, leaves you exposed, lacking speed on concrete. The heli has similar drawbacks.....that speed for "map control" is offset by noise, hard to hide, exposed, hellish maintenance and the risk of leading people strait to your camp (much more so that with any other vehicle from the dayz verse)  :)

Edited May 17, 2014 by Karmaterror

[xalienax 621]

Ahh I see now, tnx

 

My point was that for all that "map control" they are so fragile and exposed. Its not all a one way street of "heli guy has all the advantage and no disadvantage" you sacrifice a lot to have that speed, especialy the security of your campsit ;)

 

There is always a tradeoff, theres enough drawbacks to a heli to offset the advantages. So much so my group has gifted our fair share of them to new players. It becomes too much hastle keeping it fuelled, repairing it constantly when you get fired upon....hitting power lines and loosing your only ghillie suit LOL :D

 

I could argue a pushbike is overpowered because it allows near silent movement at reasonable speed on most terrain....and never needs fuel. So while I don't get "god view" I get unlimited time in the woods to hunt. But to offset that its got no carry capacity, leaves you exposed, lacking speed on concrete. The heli has similar drawbacks.....that speed for "map control" is offset by noise, hard to hide, exposed, hellish maintenance and the risk of leading people strait to your camp (much more so that with any other vehicle from the dayz verse)  :)

Thats how i feel about it. anything thats going to be that level of time and effort to put together deserves some pretty big advantages imho

[Katana67 2907]

You forgot racing around after server restarts to hit every helicopter crash site before others got there.

 

A good point!

 

Another issue that has nothing to do with helicopters, and everything to do with a systemic flaw (i.e. frequent server restarts not only forcing helicopter crash spawns, but also a lack of dynamic helicopter crashes). Not to mention, the effectiveness of this tactic is tied to how frequently one can get a helicopter up and running.

 

Remove the need for, or reduce the frequency of, server restarts (as it's supposedly planned) and re-work the helicopter crashes (if it, or something similar, is going to be in Standalone eventually).

 

On an unrelated note, folks, bear in mind that I don't think helicopters were overpowered... at all. Even if they were, they should be something to be feared. The point of this thread is to highlight some of the factors which folks cite to deem helicopters as "overpowered" and to realize that none of them actually are to do with helicopters as a concept. The "issues" with helicopters in the mod were in large part to their execution (which was lacking, given that they weren't tailored to DayZ) and systemic flaws in the game, not their mere inclusion.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Katana67

[liquidsnake 275]

A couple of counter-points

 

1: "Everyone you played against was noobs, and that's why they didn't find your camp."

 

Wrong. We didn't hide our camp in debug, and we didn't hide it on the border of the map, and we didn't hide it in "obvious" spots. I can't give away exact locations, but suffice it to say that there were only 3 ways our camp would be found;

 

-Hackers (most common)

-Lucky noobs who get lost and stumble upon it (never happened..)

-Someone who owned another helicopter (which we removed the possibility of)

 

Our hiding spots were not spots you would go looking for a heli... Nor were they on top of buildings. 

Furthermore, there are different spots which are good for different heli's. The Littlebirds we would hide separately from the Huey and the Mi17 because the Littlebirds could be hidden inside of actual forest, which made them that much more difficult to find. If our huey/mi17 got stolen, we would just get the BLB and hunt it back down, if it wasn't destroyed.

 

2. Most people suck at flying heli's and often crash them or get shot down.. If this happens, we would simply be ready with a new set of parts, and wait for them to respawn. If you know the restart cycle of the server, it's easy to predict when the heli will respawn.

 

3. Re: "Most camps are empty."

 

That's why you always destroy tents/stashes when you find them.. So that you know any tents/stashes you find on your regular server are new, and thus usually contain loot, or are so new that they contain nothing.. in which case you leave them for 1-2 days, then return, rob them, and smash them.

 

 

4. Re: "It's fair play.."

 

Yeah, it's fair play in the mod, but that doesn't make it fun. Part of what makes DayZ fun and exciting as a new player is building yourself up from nothing, to having a camp. People only have so much patience.. It's not that they will quit immediately upon losing 1 vehicle/camp.. But if they spent 8 hours hunting down supplies to get a vehicle, then finally get one, hide it, and then come back the next day and it's gone.. they may do this 2-3 more times before finally giving up and not quitting the game, just quitting the server. I don't blame them. I would too.

 

 

5. Re: "Heli's/vehicles only last 1-2 play sessions anyway, otherwise they're stolen/destroyed."

 

Only if 

 

a. You are bad at hiding them

b. You do not already control all 4 helicopters

c. Someone else on the server owns a helicopter

d. The server is EXTREMELY populated (60 players regularily, like US3480).

 

 

6."It's dickish to destroy tents/vehicles, but if that's how you wanna play, go for it."

 

Yeah, it's dickish.. But if you don't do it, someone else will.. This is exactly why heli's are bad. Normally, if I am running around on foot (or in a car/truck), and I find a tent, it's a special treat and/or the person sucked at hiding it and it deserves to get smashed. However, if I am in a helicopter, there is literally no way you're hiding your camp from me.

 

7. "I don't believe that you had all the heli's on the map for that long, unless everyone you played against sucked."

 

Nope.. We did.. And the server was populated, and there were plenty of good groups of players on our server. We went to battle with them many times.. I have about a dozen people that can attest to the fact that we did, indeed, control the map for that long.

 

8. The hiding spots on the map are only going to become fewer and fewer.. With all of the additions of new buildings/cities, it's going to be very difficult for people to hide tents/vehicles for very long, because more of the map is going to be active, especially when 100+ player servers are a reality... This actually favors people who have heli's even more. 

I used to hide my camp in not so obvious places, but in places that are so dangerous for camps that nobody bothered to look there or ever think of hiding one there. I'm afraid I can't tell where it was because it hasn't been found to this day. I had 3 camps in that spot (in different servers, at the same time) and none were ever compromised. They disappeared because of updates and server shut downs. My longest surviving camp was about 3-5 months old before the server shut down. The character that owned the camp is still alive as well. Last time I checked I survived for 374 days. None of my camps were found in that period

[Etherimp 1323]

I used to hide my camp in not so obvious places, but in places that are so dangerous for camps that nobody bothered to look there or ever think of hiding one there. I'm afraid I can't tell where it was because it hasn't been found to this day. I had 3 camps in that spot (in different servers, at the same time) and none were ever compromised. They disappeared because of updates and server shut downs. My longest surviving camp was about 3-5 months old before the server shut down. The character that owned the camp is still alive as well. Last time I checked I survived for 374 days. None of my camps were found in that period

 

 

There are a few good places to hide tents, and a lot of good places to hide stashes.. hiding vehicles however is another story. ATV's, bikes, and motorbikes may survive, and there's a good strategy for hiding the V3S to the untrained eye, but most of the better vehicles are pretty easy to spot no matter where you hide them. I agree though, and I'm aware of spots that sound similar to yours. There are a couple places on the map (I can think of 3-4 off the top of my head) where almost nobody goes, ever..

 

1. Too many zeds

2. No payoff.. very few loot spawns

3. No buildings you can enter to avoid zeds

4. Either unmarked on the map, or out of the way of the normal loot routes, so no reason for anyone to pass through.

 

These are great spots for tents/stashes, and the occasional low value vehicle (like an ATV, for example.)

[Etherimp 1323]

A good point!

 

Another issue that has nothing to do with helicopters, and everything to do with a systemic flaw (i.e. frequent server restarts not only forcing helicopter crash spawns, but also a lack of dynamic helicopter crashes). Not to mention, the effectiveness of this tactic is tied to how frequently one can get a helicopter up and running.

 

Remove the need for, or reduce the frequency of, server restarts (as it's supposedly planned) and re-work the helicopter crashes (if it, or something similar, is going to be in Standalone eventually).

 

On an unrelated note, folks, bear in mind that I don't think helicopters were overpowered... at all. Even if they were, they should be something to be feared. The point of this thread is to highlight some of the factors which folks cite to deem helicopters as "overpowered" and to realize that none of them actually are to do with helicopters as a concept. The "issues" with helicopters in the mod were in large part to their execution (which was lacking, given that they weren't tailored to DayZ), not their mere inclusion.

 

 

Please tell me how you could execute helicopters that would not allow people to fly across the entire map in less than 5 minutes, see *MOST* camps/vehicles on the way, and that WOULDN'T ruin gameplay/make them a waste of time.

 

No matter how difficult you make them to fly, or repair, or maintain, or how rare you make them, they will ALWAYS offer incredible speed/visibility. That's the nature of helicopters. There's a reason IRL helicopters are used to search for fleeing suspects, or to heli-lift people out of dangerous situations... Because THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

 

They are fast. They can hover. They have vertical take off and landing. They provide visibility from a birds eye view.

 

End of story. That's why they're "OP".

 

Edit: Not to mention, in a game focused around "survival", they really have no place. This game is supposed to invoke feelings of being a lone (or small group) of vulnerable survivors in a massive expanse of wilderness and danger... 

 

...Not of being an elite military unit seeking and destroying.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Etherimp

[Katana67 2907]

Please tell me how you could execute helicopters that would not allow people to fly across the entire map in less than 5 minutes, see *MOST* camps/vehicles on the way, and that WOULDN'T ruin gameplay/make them a waste of time.

 

Flying across the map in less than 5 minutes isn't an issue for me. It doesn't offer any real advantages in and of itself in terms of being able to affect the situation on the ground. However, the ability to deploy folks inconsequentially and the ease of spotting things is what is at fault here.

 

You're muddling two very different things - being able to traverse terrain rapidly... and being able to spot things easily.

 

Camps/vehicles having the ability to be camouflaged by the folks on the ground, or having smaller storage alternatives (i.e. persistent backpacks) would work wonders. As would remedying the issues that I listed in the OP.

 

The issue with spotting things, is that the folks on the ground (with regard to tents and vehicles) have no alternative means of hiding their things.

 

Likewise, making them more difficult to get up and running isn't insignificant. If they're less-likely to be in the air at any given time, they're less likely overall to be doing the things you're saying.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Katana67

[Katana67 2907]

Edit: Not to mention, in a game focused around "survival", they really have no place. This game is supposed to invoke feelings of being a lone (or small group) of vulnerable survivors in a massive expanse of wilderness and danger... 

 

...Not of being an elite military unit seeking and destroying.

 

And it does... helicopters help with that... I sure feel alone, scared, and vulnerable when a helicopter flies over me armed to the teeth.

 

One man's crew of bandits is another man's "elite military unit" I guess.

[xalienax 621]

 

On an unrelated note, folks, bear in mind that I don't think helicopters were overpowered... at all. Even if they were, they should be something to be feared. The point of this thread is to highlight some of the factors which folks cite to deem helicopters as "overpowered" and to realize that none of them actually are to do with helicopters as a concept. The "issues" with helicopters in the mod were in large part to their execution (which was lacking, given that they weren't tailored to DayZ) and systemic flaws in the game, not their mere inclusion.

a very good point indeed. so often i see replies to vehicle threads that all fault execution. theres nothing overpowered about helis them selves. fragile, noisey, easy to spot and track. the only real thing that made them broken (not overpowered, just broken) was the way arma renders ground clutter when flying.. or should i say, DOESNT render it.

[Etherimp 1323]

Flying across the map in less than 5 minutes isn't an issue for me. It doesn't offer any real advantages in and of itself in terms of being able to affect the situation on the ground. However, the ability to deploy folks inconsequentially and the ease of spotting things is what is at fault here.

 

You're muddling two very different things - being able to traverse terrain rapidly... and being able to spot things easily.

 

Camps/vehicles having the ability to be camouflaged by the folks on the ground, or having smaller storage alternatives (i.e. persistent backpacks) would work wonders. As would remedying the issues that I listed in the OP.

 

The issue with spotting things, is that the folks on the ground (with regard to tents and vehicles) have no alternative means of hiding their things.

 

Likewise, making them more difficult to get up and running isn't insignificant. If they're less-likely to be in the air at any given time, they're less likely overall to be doing the things you're saying.

 

 

I'm not muddling anything... you're splitting hairs.

 

Flying across the map in 5 minutes or less and getting a birds eye view of the entire map are not "minor issues" that "don't effect things on the ground"... It affects everything.. the entire game.. 

[gibonez 3633]

And it does... helicopters help with that... I sure feel alone, scared, and vulnerable when a helicopter flies over me armed to the teeth.

 

One man's crew of bandits is another man's "elite military unit" I guess.

 

Well say they are a random crew of bandits how in heck do they know how to fly let alone maintain a helicopter.

 

That is the single biggest problem I have with helicopters. You cannot have a realistic survival sim yet have the random survivors piloting modern helicopters.

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Well say they are a random crew of bandits how in heck do they know how to fly let alone maintain a helicopter.

 

That is the single biggest problem I have with helicopters. You cannot have a realistic survival sim yet have the random survivors piloting modern helicopters.

 

Yes!

 

And if you force people to read a manual or something to be able to do it, you get called 'unrealistic' or 'gamey', when in reality you would not be able to know how to fly a heli unless you know, spent months in classes, learning, reading up, etc etc.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Wait what?  Being able to fly a helicopter is unrealistic but walking around with state of the art military gear and gunning people down like a trained soldier isn't? 

[gibonez 3633]

Wait what?  Being able to fly a helicopter is unrealistic but walking around with state of the art military gear and gunning people down like a trained soldier isn't? 

 

Anyone can find military gear and shoot a gun.

 

Shooting a gun truly requires little to no skill.

 

Flying and especially maintaining a helo would require tons of training and experience.

[lipemr 160]

Anyone can find military gear and shoot a gun.

 

Shooting a gun truly requires little to no skill.

 

Flying and especially maintaining a helo would require tons of training and experience.

 

totally agree.

 

Comparing flying a chopper to pulling a safety and pressing a trigger, a post with caboose mark of quality, lol.

[maybeme 22]

How are any choppers going to see your staches when the pilot is in first person?

They won't, or the heli will have to allow you to stick your head out the window.

They'd need friends, and the time to fuel and repair the chopper.

Choppers are fine. If you want to scavenge and fuel it, you deserve it, by all means.

[lipemr 160]

How are any choppers going to see your staches when the pilot is in first person?

They won't, or the heli will have to allow you to stick your head out the window.

They'd need friends, and the time to fuel and repair the chopper.

Choppers are fine. If you want to scavenge and fuel it, you deserve it, by all means.

 

the pilot wont be in first person, who the fuck said they would be?

 

Carebears would cry till they implement the third person camera on vehicles again, if they ever removed it.

Edited May 17, 2014 by lipemr

[Inception. 9443]

a post with caboose mark of quality

 

If you cannot learn to refrain yourself, go someplace else. It is getting tiresome. 

[Etherimp 1323]

the pilot wont be in first person, who the fuck said they would be?

 

Carebears would cry till they implement the third person camera on vehicles again, if they ever removed it.

 

 

While I would have absolutely no problem with DayZ becoming 1st person only, I think removing 3rd person from vehicles would be a huge mistake unless they completely reworked the way FOV works inside of vehicles. 

 

Several problems

 

1. Your "Real life" FOV is about 100-110, when considering peripheral vision. Your eyes can swivel inside of your eye sockets, and your eyes can focus in and out, allowing you high visual fidelity at varying ranges and degrees of your head being turned. This simply cannot be/isn't accurately simulated in FPS games.

 

2. When adjusting your FOV in game, you lose image quality.. Everything on your screen becomes stretched out, that's because your screen/resolution only has so many pixels, and the game is forced to fit more "area" into the same amount of pixels, so compromises in quality must be made. This simply isn't the case IRL.

 

3. Driving a vehicle requires 3 mirrors, and a LOT of use of peripheral vision, and a constant changing of focus.. To do this in game you would effectively have to dynamically adjust your FOV dozens of times a minute, as well as free-look around the vehicle constantly while still attempting to drive safely. 

 

Due to these factors (and more), limiting driving to first person only would basically ruin the experience and make driving "unplayable". It's not just a problem with DayZ, it's a problem with all driving games in general. There's a reason why driving simulators, racing games, and huge AAA games like Grand Theft Auto prefer 3rd person mode for vehicles. It's just better.

 

 

And even if it wasn't, you still haven't solved the inherent reality of having helicopters in a game where the map is only 225²km.

 

Primarily - They offer unparalleled speed, mobility, access, and visibility. Helicopters come with those features no matter how you  implement them.

 

Read this and understand it:

 

DESIGN DECISIONS SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO CATER TO MAKING HELICOPTERS POSSIBLE WHERE THOSE DESIGN DECISIONS WOULD OTHERWISE BE UNNECESSARY OR UNWANTED.

 

In short: Don't design the game around adding helicopters.

[maybeme 22]

the pilot wont be in first person, who the fuck said they would be?

Carebears would cry till they implement the third person camera on vehicles again, if they ever removed it.

First of all, I was suggesting that they should be, through a question.

Second, use some goddamn manners. I wasn't attacking you at all, I was making a suggestion.

To the guy above me,

I thought first person was alright in the mod. I drove with it often. Flying was something else as I simply couldn't tell if the helicopter was level or not, so I went in third. Other than that, there's some sweet first person looks to be had doing a barrel roll in a Little Bird. Driving in 1st is too, with freelook enabled so you can check both ways ;)

[Katana67 2907]

You cannot have a realistic survival sim yet have the random survivors piloting modern helicopters.

 

Yet DayZ has never been, and never has claimed to be, wholly realistic.

 

No game has ever represented helicopters realistically (i.e. making one go through months of training, certification, and flight hours). Because that's not why we play games...

 

Zombies. 

[The Feral Kid 13]

Please tell me how you could execute helicopters that would not allow people to fly across the entire map in less than 5 minutes, see *MOST* camps/vehicles on the way, and that WOULDN'T ruin gameplay/make them a waste of time.

 

Umm, decrease view distance for helicopter pilots and passengers?  

 

There is a point at which this would "ruin gameplay" and "make them a waste of time" but there is plenty of leeway before that happens.