Removal of 3rd person view exploit

[terrvik 2409]

I never play on 3rd-person servers because I am not a pussy, but I am curious and want to ask a few things.

Just because ArmA is a tactical shooter, who the hell says that DayZ is? Just because 3rd person view is in ArmA it doesn't have to be in DayZ. I'm getting sick of that argument. ArmA 2 is a tactical shooter, YES. DayZ isn't.

Why the hell is this so important to you? Everybody screams when the infected gets a little more powerful but when you can take advantage of something it's okay because "ArmA is a tactical shooter". What!?

Even seen the argument that 3rd person is realistic. Gnngh.

Bottom line: I udnerstand why it is important in Arma (and OFP, since I played since that came out) but I want it gone in DayZ.

[7-75 callaghan 43]

I never play on 3rd-person servers because I am not a pussy' date=' but I am curious and want to ask a few things.

Just because ArmA is a tactical shooter, who the hell says that DayZ is? Just because 3rd person view is in ArmA it doesn't have to be in DayZ. I'm getting sick of that argument. ArmA 2 is a tactical shooter, YES. DayZ isn't.

Why the hell is this so important to you? Everybody screams when the infected gets a little more powerful but when you can take advantage of something it's okay because "ArmA is a tactical shooter". What!?

Even seen the argument that 3rd person is realistic. Gnngh.

Bottom line: I udnerstand why it is important in Arma (and OFP, since I played since that came out) but I want it gone in DayZ.

[/quote']

You are missing the point, in a multiplayer environment an exploitable mechanic that is easily controlled is exactly that, tactical shooter or not.

The argument for third person is utterly retarded, and I have recruited and trained countless individuals who, after adamantly defending the point of third person for a while, have now been converted and will never look back.

I also find your post a little confusing. I think you are using the phrase 'tactical shooter' a little liberally, or perhaps lifting it from a genre in a way that wasn't intended by it's creators. By tactical shooter, they mean realistic shooter that is based on tactics and teamplay, as opposed to rambo tactics. The BIS usage of the term in no way implies 3rd person as it does to the genre you are referring to. Besides, as far as genre goes, it is a tactical military simulator, not a 'tactical shooter', which implies something far more basic, like hidden & dangerous. 3rd person is available because 'everything' is available in this game. Doesn't mean it was intended to be used in the way we are talking about in PvP. This is an important point, and it is almost exclusively non arma players that fail to understand this.

With this series, you simply cannot apply the same standards and terms in ways of thinking as one might with other games that involve firearm combat.

Just because it is possible to create a man covered with bunny rabbits in arma, doesn't make it 'part of the game'. Yes I have done that, attachTo is a fun command.

I do not play on 3rd person servers either, unless of course a buddy is already on one. I am used to realism 'milsimming' on 'expert' mode, and the other things are a big distraction.

With regards to your 'bottom line' - it was never important for OFP, ArmA, or Arma 2 - anyone who ever took these games seriously played in first person exclusively. The rest is excuses to make up for lack of skill. A skilled pilot needs no third person, nor does a good infantryman, the arguments are often expansive and interesting, but all bullshit at the end of the day. For this reason, units like mine attract a great many active and former military, and units that use things like 3rd person and crosshair attract a lot of loud mouthed kids, with no respect for anyone, who care more about saluting fake officers and being called sir, than actually demonstrating tactical skill, leadership in a highly testing virtual environment whilst communicating with multiple sources, and other genuine skills that transfer into the online virtual environment.

There is a reason the military trains with VBS, because it truly develops important tactical skills, again - tactical here refers to real tactics, not a shooter genre that uses third person. Playing with third person is the easy option, and there is no other argument for using it, the rest is elaborately phrased hot air.

Why would I argue my case? Well if this is to become a persistent and stable mmorpg as a beta/final, then certain standards must be established early on for inter-server fairness. See previous posts for details on this concept I guess. I'm done for today.

[ryansongy@hotmail.com 27]

This is stupid. OP is assuming everyone thinks like him and that servers with 3rd disabled are the only 'real' servers and that items from those servers 'have more value'.

Well I'm used to utilizing third person view. And I will never come on to your server because I'm used to utilizing third person view. The same applies to everyone. People that like the hardcore experience will stay on the servers that offer it and people that dont, wont.

What the hell kind of twisted logic was applied to thinking people have an advantage if they acquire loot from a server with 3rd enabled and go to a server without it!? YOU'RE STILL ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH THEM THE WHOLE TIME!!!!! Hell you'd actually have a fucking advantage over them since you're used to surviving without 3rd and they wouldn't be.

christ 10/10 would rage again

[7-75 callaghan 43]

This is stupid. OP is assuming everyone thinks like him and that servers with 3rd disabled are the only 'real' servers and that items from those servers 'have more value'.

Well I'm used to utilizing third person view. And I will never come on to your server because I'm used to utilizing third person view. The same applies to everyone. People that like the hardcore experience will stay on the servers that offer it and people that dont' date=' wont.

What the hell kind of twisted logic was applied to thinking people have an advantage if they acquire loot from a server with 3rd enabled and go to a server without it!? YOU'RE STILL ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH THEM THE WHOLE TIME!!!!! Hell you'd actually have a fucking advantage over them since you're used to surviving without 3rd and they wouldn't be.

christ 10/10 would rage again

[/quote']

You didn't even bother reading any of the important posts. Please hang up and try again.

[NoobieCarebear 0]

You are missing the point, in a multiplayer environment an exploitable mechanic that is easily controlled is exactly that, tactical shooter or not.

The argument for third person is utterly retarded, and I have recruited and trained countless individuals who, after adamantly defending the point of third person for a while, have now been converted and will never look back.

- We will all just have to take you on your word for this -

I also find your post a little confusing. I think you are using the phrase 'tactical shooter' a little liberally, or perhaps lifting it from a genre in a way that wasn't intended by it's creators. By tactical shooter, they mean realistic shooter that is based on tactics and teamplay, as opposed to rambo tactics. The BIS usage of the term in no way implies 3rd person as it does to the genre you are referring to. Besides, as far as genre goes, it is a tactical military simulator, not a 'tactical shooter', which implies something far more basic, like hidden & dangerous. 3rd person is available because 'everything' is available in this game. Doesn't mean it was intended to be used in the way we are talking about in PvP. This is an important point, and it is almost exclusively non arma players that fail to understand this.

With this series, you simply cannot apply the same standards and terms in ways of thinking as one might with other games that involve firearm combat.

Just because it is possible to create a man covered with bunny rabbits in arma, doesn't make it 'part of the game'. Yes I have done that, attachTo is a fun command.

I do not play on 3rd person servers either, unless of course a buddy is already on one. I am used to realism 'milsimming' on 'expert' mode, and the other things are a big distraction.

With regards to your 'bottom line' - it was never important for OFP, ArmA, or Arma 2 - anyone who ever took these games seriously played in first person exclusively. The rest is excuses to make up for lack of skill. A skilled pilot needs no third person, nor does a good infantryman, the arguments are often expansive and interesting, but all bullshit at the end of the day. For this reason, units like mine attract a great many active and former military, and units that use things like 3rd person and crosshair attract a lot of loud mouthed kids, with no respect for anyone, who care more about saluting fake officers and being called sir, than actually demonstrating tactical skill, leadership in a highly testing virtual environment whilst communicating with multiple sources, and other genuine skills that transfer into the online virtual environment.

- again we will all just have to take your word for this. -

There is a reason the military trains with VBS, because it truly develops important tactical skills, again - tactical here refers to real tactics, not a shooter genre that uses third person. Playing with third person is the easy option, and there is no other argument for using it, the rest is elaborately phrased hot air.

- WoW arrogance and ego much!?! -

Why would I argue my case? Well if this is to become a persistent and stable mmorpg as a beta/final, then certain standards must be established early on for inter-server fairness. See previous posts for details on this concept I guess. I'm done for today.

Really an mmorpg that's what you think this mod will become, please just go back to Darkfall, your argument was done last night.

[ryansongy@hotmail.com 27]

This is stupid. OP is assuming everyone thinks like him and that servers with 3rd disabled are the only 'real' servers and that items from those servers 'have more value'.

Well I'm used to utilizing third person view. And I will never come on to your server because I'm used to utilizing third person view. The same applies to everyone. People that like the hardcore experience will stay on the servers that offer it and people that dont' date=' wont.

What the hell kind of twisted logic was applied to thinking people have an advantage if they acquire loot from a server with 3rd enabled and go to a server without it!? YOU'RE STILL ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH THEM THE WHOLE TIME!!!!! Hell you'd actually have a fucking advantage over them since you're used to surviving without 3rd and they wouldn't be.

christ 10/10 would rage again

[/quote']

You didn't even bother reading any of the important posts. Please hang up and try again.

Forgive me for reading the first three pages and finding the OP infuriatingly dense enough to reply to.

Why would you like to remove the player's right to choose servers with third person or not? Just to let you know, it's not an advantage if EVERYONE HAS IT.

Fuck if anything you'd WANT the people used to using 3rd to come to your server. They're out of their comfort zone and easy pickings for the leader of a 'realism unit' that's been playing this way since the game's inception. What exactly are you so afraid of?

[Dreamseller 0]

I don't see 3rd person as any advantage. Players are the only threat if you are playing "correctly" and don't just run through the streets. If you're on a 3rd person server, everyone has 3rd person, so it's an even playing field.

If someone likes using 3rd person, they are unlikely to change to a first person only server anyway. I move while in 3rd person, as first person seems more blurred while moving. (I've turned off motion blur), but I always switch to first person if I am in combat.

It's a preference, not an advantage.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

*Groans* Not another ... just press Numpad Enter or go on a server where its disabled if you don't like it and think its an "exploit", third person is implemented into ARMA II for a reason (simulation of surround awareness) and some people feel more comfortable and immersed with it.

Many people even have problems with nausea and dizziness when playing in first person. Its a decision anyone has to make on his own if he wants/needs it or not.

[leo235 2]

YES

3rd person view is stupid and should not be in the game. It decreases immersion and sales for headtracking devices.

But for real: 3rdPV is just a way to make the game easier because yoou dont have to look around as much. looking over walls IS an exploit in the sense that it shouldnt be there.

Would you NO-people say that if there were servers where you could disconnect and other servers where you couldnt that disconnecting would stop beeing a stupid thing because you could just paly on another server?

I wouldnt.

[ryansongy@hotmail.com 27]

Would you NO-people say that if there were servers where you could disconnect and other servers where you couldnt that disconnecting would stop beeing a stupid thing because you could just paly on another server?

wat

[twitchytrigger 4]

I have noticed it is less risky to use 3rd person on a few occasions. laying prone on a roof and being able to see the area below without having to peek out your head and risk exposure is one example. i am able to see other survivors clearly, without them being able to see me. even if they were looking at my direction. that is unrealistic. call me crazy, but i dont think Rocket built this mod with the idea of having a situation like that risk free.

[magus_taliesin@hotmail.com 0]

An exploit is an unintended glitch in a game, that is then used for an advantage by people that know about it over people that don't.

When it is designed into a game, with a key to select it, and fully functional results, it is not an exploit it is a feature. This feature let's you see around corners and over walls, but not through them. Because everyone can use it, there is no tactical advantage to it.

It is not only fair (everyone can do it), it is not cheating. And, like someone said, people that play on 3p servers are not going to go to 1p servers just to kill people.

[NoobieCarebear 0]

YES

3rd person view is stupid and should not be in the game. It decreases immersion and sales for headtracking devices.

-headtracking devices like Track ir work in 3rd person mode' date=' so I don't see how that would decrease the sale of these items and since not everyone has access to one of these devices, wouldn't that make the use of one in game an exploit-

But for real: 3rdPV is just a way to make the game easier because yoou dont have to look around as much. looking over walls IS an exploit in the sense that it shouldnt be there.

-rubbish go and read a few of the previous posts, even fps supporters agree that this is not an exploit.

Would you NO-people say that if there were servers where you could disconnect and other servers where you couldnt that disconnecting would stop beeing a stupid thing because you could just paly on another server?

I wouldnt.

-WTF??-

[/quote']

[twitchytrigger 4]

well, its not an exploit. but it is easier and less punishing. I just dont think thats the direction this mod intends to go in.

[leo235 2]

Would you NO-people say that if there were servers where you could disconnect and other servers where you couldnt that disconnecting would stop beeing a stupid thing because you could just paly on another server?

wat

Is that so unclear? just because you can avoid something stupid by changing the server doesnt mean its not stupid.

[terrvik 2409]

I never play on 3rd-person servers because I am not a pussy' date=' but I am curious and want to ask a few things.

Just because ArmA is a tactical shooter, who the hell says that DayZ is? Just because 3rd person view is in ArmA it doesn't have to be in DayZ. I'm getting sick of that argument. ArmA 2 is a tactical shooter, YES. DayZ isn't.

Why the hell is this so important to you? Everybody screams when the infected gets a little more powerful but when you can take advantage of something it's okay because "ArmA is a tactical shooter". What!?

Even seen the argument that 3rd person is realistic. Gnngh.

Bottom line: I udnerstand why it is important in Arma (and OFP, since I played since that came out) but I want it gone in DayZ.

[/quote']

You are missing the point, in a multiplayer environment an exploitable mechanic that is easily controlled is exactly that, tactical shooter or not.

The argument for third person is utterly retarded, and I have recruited and trained countless individuals who, after adamantly defending the point of third person for a while, have now been converted and will never look back.

I also find your post a little confusing. I think you are using the phrase 'tactical shooter' a little liberally, or perhaps lifting it from a genre in a way that wasn't intended by it's creators. By tactical shooter, they mean realistic shooter that is based on tactics and teamplay, as opposed to rambo tactics. The BIS usage of the term in no way implies 3rd person as it does to the genre you are referring to. Besides, as far as genre goes, it is a tactical military simulator, not a 'tactical shooter', which implies something far more basic, like hidden & dangerous. 3rd person is available because 'everything' is available in this game. Doesn't mean it was intended to be used in the way we are talking about in PvP. This is an important point, and it is almost exclusively non arma players that fail to understand this.

With this series, you simply cannot apply the same standards and terms in ways of thinking as one might with other games that involve firearm combat.

Just because it is possible to create a man covered with bunny rabbits in arma, doesn't make it 'part of the game'. Yes I have done that, attachTo is a fun command.

I do not play on 3rd person servers either, unless of course a buddy is already on one. I am used to realism 'milsimming' on 'expert' mode, and the other things are a big distraction.

With regards to your 'bottom line' - it was never important for OFP, ArmA, or Arma 2 - anyone who ever took these games seriously played in first person exclusively. The rest is excuses to make up for lack of skill. A skilled pilot needs no third person, nor does a good infantryman, the arguments are often expansive and interesting, but all bullshit at the end of the day. For this reason, units like mine attract a great many active and former military, and units that use things like 3rd person and crosshair attract a lot of loud mouthed kids, with no respect for anyone, who care more about saluting fake officers and being called sir, than actually demonstrating tactical skill, leadership in a highly testing virtual environment whilst communicating with multiple sources, and other genuine skills that transfer into the online virtual environment.

There is a reason the military trains with VBS, because it truly develops important tactical skills, again - tactical here refers to real tactics, not a shooter genre that uses third person. Playing with third person is the easy option, and there is no other argument for using it, the rest is elaborately phrased hot air.

Why would I argue my case? Well if this is to become a persistent and stable mmorpg as a beta/final, then certain standards must be established early on for inter-server fairness. See previous posts for details on this concept I guess. I'm done for today.

Sorry for the long quote. :) My post is probably confusing for a couple of reasons; i just woke up before i wrote it without any coffee, I used the term "tactical shooter" as I've seen it being used in this thread and my English confuse even me most of the time. :)

I'm not sure if you and I are on the same side? I agree with everything in your post, sorry if what i wrote suggested otherwise! My main point is that just because the vanilla game has a feature that doesn't mean a mod with a different focus must include it.

[pvt_ammo@hotmail.com 164]

One mans exploit is another mans tactical advantage, live with it, learn to adapt or die. Notice I put "tactical" advantage as this game is a "tactical" shooter. I use the 3rd person mode for all you have said and more. It's an element of this genre of game. I use third person mode to not only look around corners and see through walls but I also use it to survey the field, check where team members are and acquire targets quickly.

If you cannot live with a third person mode which is a core element of a tactical shooter of this kind then you're probably better off suited COD or BF3.

[terrvik 2409]

One mans exploit is another mans tactical advantage' date=' live with it, learn to adapt or die. Notice I put "tactical" advantage as this game is a "tactical" shooter. I use the 3rd person mode for all you have said and more. It's an element of this genre of game. I use third person mode to not only look around corners and see through walls but I also use it to survey the field, check where team members are and acquire targets quickly.

If you cannot live with a third person mode which is a core element of a tactical shooter of this kind then you're probably better off suited COD or BF3.

[/quote']

Fair point about what genre ArmA is. My disagreement is based on the fact that DayZ isn't ArmA. Different "rules" should apply.

About the COD and BF3 thing I would argue the other way around. If you can't play without (and use tactics) exploiting the camera to see around corners maybe this game is to much of a challenge...

[heretic (DayZ) 76]

Have just trawled through this thread and it seems to me that it's the same old argument;

My way is the right/best way! Everybody should play the game my way, because I'm right! Whether hardcore or carebear!

I believe that there as many ways to play DayZ as there are players. What's fine/good for one isn't fine/good for another. Jeez! What a tightrope for the devs to walk.

In defense of 3rd person view, I always understood it was an attempt to compensate for the inherent lack of peripheral vision in computer games. After all your FOV is limited by monitor size (and FOV) settings. First person is kinda like playing with a set of blinkers on... Pony games anybody?

There is room for both? As other posters have suggested, if you don't like it, don't play that way. Equally, don't expect everybody else to restrict themselves, or be forced to restrict themselves to your style of play. It's about accessibility and giving as much choice as possible to as many players as possible to play the game in a way that suits them.

You can call it an exploit or a game feature, it doesn't matter which. But the devs can only please some of the people some of the time. They can't please all of the people all of the time!

I don't envy them.

[pvt_ammo@hotmail.com 164]

Sorry but I think you miss the point. Challenge is irrelevant, it's the style of game play. Dayz isn't suppose to be a PVP based game. You're clearly looking at it with a them vs us mentality much like how most players of COD and BF3 genre of games promote. The arma game engine as a whole doesn't play on that concept. Arma is more of a game of chess rather than a game of tennis.

Unlike said FPS games, arma is 90% planning and 10% action, much like the analogical game of chess.

[terrvik 2409]

Sorry but I think you miss the point. Challenge is irrelevant' date=' it's the style of game play. Dayz isn't suppose to be a PVP based game. You're clearly looking at it with a them vs us mentality much like how most players of COD and BF3 genre of games promote. The arma game engine as a whole doesn't play on that concept. Arma is more of a game of chess rather than a game of tennis.

Unlike said FPS games, arma is 90% planning and 10% action, much like the analogical game of chess.

[/quote']

To be honest, I don't really care if other people use 3rd person or not, I'm still only ever going to play on the server with everything turned off. I just have too much fun in first person not having control over my surroundings because it freaks me out when I don't know where the zombies around me are. :) I have to be much more planning and careful when I'm not able to check around corners beforehand and that's why I think first person fits the gameplay more. But each to his own.

[duddbudda 33]

Unlike said FPS games' date=' arma is 90% planning and 10% action, much like the analogical game of chess.

[/quote']

I agree completely

extending the chess anology, we can examine 3rd's effect on the game

Imagine two players, Camper A and Target B, and a table with a chessboard on it

Target B plays Black, he will move his pieces

Camper A may or may not be at the chess board, his pieces may or may not be in any given square and he may or may not want to beat Target B

Target B will only become aware of Camper A's presence when Camper A achieves checkmate

for many of you, this will appear analogous to ARMAic combat, however there is something you are missing

FPS only demands that Camper A peek out from under the tablecloth

an attentive Target B can catch him in the act and respond accordingly

To make the analogy clear:

Camper A sits in a cluster of bushes/on a building/behind a wall/etc, Target B does things

Camper A has perfect vision of Target B and may engage as he deems appropriate

Target B has absolutely zero chance of spotting Camper A

without 3rd, Camper A would have to expose himself to get eyes on, allowing a cautious Target B to behave accordingly

[dallas 5195]

However player B, knows what player A is capable of and have to take pretautions accordingly. Also we assume player B approves of 3rd person view, since player B is playing on a server that allows it for both targets and campers.

[BL1P 252]

Good morning :)

@ Sandy State Phantom

Some nice analogies there m8.

All valid points that I have been unable to put across to people through my lack of internetz forum speak skills.

It goes beyond the obvious use of 3rd from cover or concealment though.

3rd can be used to look though walls while leaving you char impossible to see from the outside of the walls.

I am not saying all people do this with 3rd, just that it is possible.

The fact that its possible leaves the mod open to exploiters and I feel it should be addressed. along with all other exploits that are being addressed. (rearming of mags via disconnect for example)

I have seen quite a few people say if you don't like it don't play on servers using 3rd.

I just want to clear this point up.

I do not play on servers with 3rd on in general. Especially if the mission involves PVP.

I realise some people use 3rd as a starting point with arma or just because they prefer it.

That is fine. Except that 3rd can be used to exploit and loot can be gained from that exploit which can then be used on a server which doesn't have 3rd on.Only in DayZ is this possible atm.

My concerns over ill gained loot have been misunderstood aswell.(or poorly explined by myself which sounds more probable ).

The loot I was referring to would be the loot gained from exploiting 3rd to get a pvp kill.

Not the loot gained from looking in a building using 3rd view which you would not be able to do without the 3rd camera.

Ok hope that helps clear some of the bad internetz forum skills of mine :)

O yes I almost forgot .... using 3rd to exploit here are some quick examples I threw together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDajUWWgGO0

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

Where now is the exploit? Its only an exploit if other people do not have that advantage. Everyone on a 3rd person has the same possibilities as its active on these servers.

Maybe playing on 3rd Person enabled servers is even trickier, because by what you showed very nicely in your video, players have a much better awareness of their surroundings.

Even what is going on behind a wall, which is the exact intention of 3rd person. Awareness != what you can actually see, but a mix of gut feeling, sounds, vibrations, orientation, view, peripheral view and knowledge of your surroundings.

Judging your video what disturbs you and you call exploiting is that by using 3rd person view the camera mobility should be confined to where you are, not go through walls and not allow you to see above obstacles higher than you.

So technically the exploit is not the 3rd person view per se, but the lack of collision and free movement radius of the 3rd person camera. And this is what I think you should have suggested to be looked into in the first place. I think this would have made much more sense.