Problems with the Morality System

[Freyar 8]

First day playing' date=' right out of spawn, someone shoots at me and I kill them. Now I'm a bandit, always getting ganked while trying to find a weapon better than the shitty pea shooter you get at the start, or shot while trying to befriend a group (I actually announced myself approaching a group of people, told them I was bandit, what gun I was carrying, etc, and one member of their group went ahead and shot me anyway just because of the bandit skin). [/quote']

The revolver's actually pretty good overall. Other weapons help, but you're by no means useless with what you start with. To be honest, I have a sneaking suspicion that the guy would have shot you anyway (this is the cynical EvE-O player in me). Does it suck? Yeah, but it is what it is.

Either PVP needs to be removed entirely, and an alternative put in place, or the morality system should be changed drastically. Because it just serves to make PVP and griefing more justifiable, drives people away.

If you've ever heard of the game hellmoo, they had an open pvp system much like this game, while they aren't very similar at all, the griefing got so bad there that they ended up having to split the game, and lost over 50% of their playerbase by doing that because they didn't end up fixing the problem in a timely manner.

My understanding is that "morality" is fairly new to begin with, and this is an alpha build of everything. Concept is in there, and over time it'll be refined. Better to come up with some suggestions than to simply say "scrap it".

Reducing the dramatic damage to humanity is a good step forward, and seeing about designing better methods of restoring it would be a good idea as well. People slipping into Bandit-y skins for defense certainly wasn't an intent.

[bodycount 83]

It seems many people are not happy about the bandit skin. I think I am in the minority by liking it. Maybe it just has too many drawbacks to make it feasible. I think it is a very unique solution to a rampant problem. Maybe I am part of the minority by thinking there is even a problem.

I am anxious to see what the developers come up with if they remove the bandit skin. They seem like very creative individuals and will probably not disappoint in either case.

Maybe I just need to HTFU.

[Freyar 8]

I like the bandit skin. The concept is good, with implementation just slightly flawed.

[Rumiac 0]

I think if they were to somehow tie the skin to the amount of murders commited instead of humanity past a certain threshold it would work better. Though this would mean the bleeding out problem would need some fixing.

Or put bandit skins on the honor system and forcefully switch to it and lock it for a set amount of time if certain things are done.

[22nd_Chuck 1]

On suggestion that has been made elsewhere (more than once) is to increase the variety of banditness! You have your non-bandit skin(s)' date=' the common bandit (most wish they were not), the guy collecting human ears for his necklace or whatever, and at the very deep end of the negative humanity scale (your PK for sport types) you can give them a bright orange jumpsuit, as if they are escaped convicts. As Ratszo suggested in another thread you could maybe even give them flashing ankle bracelets ;)

[/quote']

If anything they should get a more stealthy outfit than the bandits have, afterall if they are the "PK for sport types" they would have gotten pretty good at it, and would likely not be wearing a bright orange jumpsuit with flashing bracelets :D

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

I think it should be said that the recent influx of just bs murders and griefing MAY (theory) be because direct comms hasn't worked fully the past few days. Because the only way most people have been able to talk is through the side channel, you've got people giving out locations, distress calls, and all sorts of juicy bits of info bandits love to get at.

This may also explain the killings of survivor vs survivor. Since DC has been down, any encounter with another player is 2x as stressful as normal just because I cant claim "FRIENDLY", and especially with the latest patch where you cant see the players name saying "FRIENDLY" in the side channel is next to useless.

So while your putting all this through your mind, the guy you just encountered is wondering why don't you put your gun down, and is slowly turning around to the idea of blowing you away. I've found that using the salute emote is a good way to tell friendly or foe, but even then through a basic lack of communication, I can't be sure the second I turn around he isn't just going to shoot me anyway (Not like this cant happen normally, but as I said the lack of communication just doubles un-needed stress)

I ultimatly imagine upon the fix of the DC chat, these random bandit killings and pvp griefing should go down because players will be able to coordinate a bit better, team up with ease, and all that jazz.

Just like to say again, this is a theory.

[Freyar 8]

Is the salute emote interruptable? I'd hate to be locked to it if the other guy still looks like he's going to give me an overdose of lead.

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

I believe so, just move and your dude stops doing the animation.

[broosy 4]

I think it should be said that the recent influx of just bs murders and griefing MAY (theory) be because direct comms hasn't worked fully the past few days. Because the only way most people have been able to talk is through the side channel' date=' you've got people giving out locations, distress calls, and all sorts of juicy bits of info bandits love to get at.

This may also explain the killings of survivor vs survivor. Since DC has been down, any encounter with another player is 2x as stressful as normal just because I cant claim "FRIENDLY", and especially with the latest patch where you cant see the players name saying "FRIENDLY" in the side channel is next to useless.

So while your putting all this through your mind, the guy you just encountered is wondering why don't you put your gun down, and is slowly turning around to the idea of blowing you away. I've found that using the salute emote is a good way to tell friendly or foe, but even then through a basic lack of communication, I can't be sure the second I turn around he isn't just going to shoot me anyway (Not like this cant happen normally, but as I said the lack of communication just doubles un-needed stress)

I ultimatly imagine upon the fix of the DC chat, these random bandit killings and pvp griefing should go down because players will be able to coordinate a bit better, team up with ease, and all that jazz.

Just like to say again, this is a theory.

[/quote']

Agreed, until direct chat is fixed, it is extremely hard to communicate, and just makes people more wary of you, i know i have killed a couple of people recently either because they shot at me or lack of communication to know if they are friendly.

I don't like killing people :S

[Jeff (DayZ) 1]

I've killed one guy so far, in the middle of the city. Him and his buddies were killing people for upwards of an hour, bandit suit and all, and all of a sudden we stumble upon each other around a corner in the building. He aims, I aim, we both fire, get hit, and die. But I think I technically fired first, so I get to be a bandit now.

Bleh. I don't mind the looks, but I agree with no system. There's no telling in the real world, why here?

[tajin 17]

Hmm what I dont get with that morality system is that is affects us even after we've died.

When I get killed I loose everything and start anew. Why should I not also be allowed to approach things differently this time?

Play a harmless survivor one time... get killed.

Play as a bandit the next time... get killed.

Play as friendly survivor again...

I think flagging people as bandits should be a temporary thing, so it resets once you die.

A permanent bandit-status as we have it now only makes sense for extreme cases.

Otherwise sooner or later everyone will get flagged as bandit for one reason or the other and then the system will be utterly useless.

[Freyar 8]

I could see an attempt to prevent abuse by allowing someone to stash their stuff, die, and reclaim it.

[tajin 17]

I'm not sure if that is worth the effort since you don't know where you're going to spawn next and if the stuff is still there when you get back.

[Freyar 8]

I'm not sure if that is worth the effort since you don't know where you're going to spawn next and if the stuff is still there when you get back.

Maybe, but my learning the map has gotten easier in the past few hours.

[alienfreak 6]

Hmm what I dont get with that morality system is that is affects us even after we've died.

When I get killed I loose everything and start anew. Why should I not also be allowed to approach things differently this time?

Play a harmless survivor one time... get killed.

Play as a bandit the next time... get killed.

Play as friendly survivor again...

I think flagging people as bandits should be a temporary thing' date=' so it resets once you die.

A permanent bandit-status as we have it now only makes sense for extreme cases.

Otherwise sooner or later everyone will get flagged as bandit for one reason or the other and then the system will be utterly useless.

[/quote']

More than half of all alive players are now Bandits.

The worst part about bandits is that they are even HARDER to differentiate than the normal characters which is already near impossible.

Yesterday we were 4 guys in a shop, a 5th walks in we notice that we are 5 but without seeing names poppoing up when you hover over them its like REALLY hard to tell if you have comparable weapons.

[jordnz 102]

I agree with Tajin that it shouldn't be permanent. Particularly because people who are legitimately friendly (I know of many) have somehow been unfairly given the uniform so everyone just shoots them on site. I'm also part of this group that has been labelled a bandit for self defense.

[science 1]

Hey guys, I see I'm late to the discussion but hopefully my inputbcan help out. I'm going to break down my post into two parts, first why an alignment systems is ineffective for DayZ and second how to achieve a successful system.

Why is an alignment systems ineffective? Simple, it's to distinguish a player from pve to pvp, which is not designed for a game which is based around combat. When using a combat based two faction system eventually everyone will turn into a pvp'er much like a virus, except those who avoid all contact (which given a long enough time statistically they will pvp) or something those that don't play. That's the simple answer which most of you are already aware of.

How do you achieve a system to know who is safe and who isn't effectively? A more complex than it still simple system is available. I present to you, the reputation system.

Enable name tags so a player can be identified easily, when meeting a player you can rate them as hostile, neutral or friendly. Players that are helpful will have a positive or neutral correlation while those who do nothing but kill will have a negative rating.

There are some small issues to exploit the system however they can be fixed through game mechanics.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Oh wow, check out how fast the bandit population blew up. It went from a hundred or so to most of the community in just a few days!

Extant, your explanation of why the system is broken is right on with what we're all thinking, but I don't think your idea for a new system would be all that effective. It's probably best for no system to exist at all. That way, each player goes back to treating everyone else the same, based on what they actually observe, rather than having a predisposition based on what the magical nametag or player model tells them.

[alienfreak 6]

Oh wow' date=' check out how fast the bandit population blew up. It went from a hundred or so to most of the community in just a few days!

Extant, your explanation of why the system is broken is right on with what we're all thinking, but I don't think your idea for a new system would be all that effective. It's probably best for no system to exist at all. That way, each player goes back to treating everyone else the same, based on what they actually observe, rather than having a predisposition based on what the magical nametag or player model tells them.

[/quote']

Choosable model until you die.

So if you murder and get seen while doing it people can tell others how you look.

And notorious PvPers will almost ALWAYS use the same model because they are actually proud of being renown.

---

DING DING DING!

New bandit numbers are in!

Currently 67.85% of all alive players are now bandits!

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

Jesus Christ, it was 55% yesterday...HOW DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING

[alienfreak 6]

Jesus Christ' date=' it was 55% yesterday...HOW DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING

[/quote']

You get shot at. Shoot back. Lose Humanity.

In case of Bandits you will lose about 1000 and in case of survivors up to 4000.

Do that one or two times in your WHOLE CAREER (so with ALL your characters) and you are a bandit.

[ThatGuy (DayZ) 47]

Yep,

Got shot at and returned fire killing the two firing on me. This gave me bandit status, and after I was killed I respawned still as a bandit...

Can't wait to get shot again.

[alienfreak 6]

Yep' date='

Got shot at and returned fire killing the two firing on me. This gave me bandit status, and after I was killed I respawned still as a bandit...

Can't wait to get shot again.

[/quote']

Now anyone will shoot at you anyway.

Other bandits for sure because they don't care anymore and the survivors because they can't.

[science 1]

Oh wow' date=' check out how fast the bandit population blew up. It went from a hundred or so to most of the community in just a few days!

Extant, your explanation of why the system is broken is right on with what we're all thinking, but I don't think your idea for a new system would be all that effective. It's probably best for no system to exist at all. That way, each player goes back to treating everyone else the same, based on what they actually observe, rather than having a predisposition based on what the magical nametag or player model tells them.

[/quote']

I agree, having no tangible system other than word of mouth from the forums is the simplest and most effective system.

Out of curiosity though, why do you disagree with the reputation system?

[oktyabr 53]

"Free target" is a good idea, giving you time to defend yourself without penalty. As someone else said the problem with it is that you have to be shot first to use it. What if it could be coded so misses aimed at you also enabled free target?