Incapacitation/ Kinectic knockdown discussion

[DeatHTaX 1217]

Man, this video is from over an year ago.. How is this still not in the game?

 

Well we do tend to have issues with even keeping wells operational...are you surprised? :P

Edited November 21, 2014 by DeatHTaX

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Yup the force of the bullet is not strong enough to physically knock a person offs his feet.

Yet there are tons of instances of people having that happen.

While I suspect this is mostly due to psychological aspects of receiving an unexpected gunshot it does happen and happens incredibly often in combat footage.

That's called Hollywoodism

[rybec 339]

not a single person saying no.

 

This is unlike my other threads feels weird...

I'm surprised too. More depth to ballistics and injuries caused by the firearms is something I'm 100% for, and I didn't expect people to be interested in it.

[taco86 156]

Yes you are right but none of those would kill instantly like the current death mechanics.

All those shots including the heart shot would not be instant deaths the person would die from blood loss extremely fast deaths yes but not instant like the current you are dead screen.

 

A square shot to the heart is pretty much instant death dude...  There really is no chance of coming back from that.  The lung and kidney shots though? Going to take a while in most cases depending on the round used.  In the case of a lung shot, most rifle rounds will not pass through enough tissue to start tumbling/dumping effectively unless it hits a rib or equipment.  If surgeons are rapidly available, a lung shot is highly survivable.

[taco86 156]

The major difference is, would you rather get hit by a baseball moving at 50mph or a needle? Because the smaller surface area of the bullet it distributes its kinetic energy less at the moment of impact, penetrating, and sending the kinetic shock-wave out through the body in a more focused manor.

 

It really all comes down to "impulse".  If the impulse is short enough (theoretically), even the amount of energy in one step is enough to liquify a person.  In a simplified case of the bullet vs the rifle where both retain 50% of the energy from the exploding gasses, the rifle obviously has a much much greater impulse which essentially spreads the force over a greater period of time massively reducing the snap Gs tissues experience around the butt stock.  In the case of the bullet, the impulse will be relatively extremely short, especially while tumbling/expanding.  This means that the G's experienced around the wound far exceed what is survivable.  Cells and everything else starts to be blasted apart and a nasty wound cavity is produced.

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

I'm surprised too. More depth to ballistics and injuries caused by the firearms is something I'm 100% for, and I didn't expect people to be interested in it.

I`m not, its an awesome idea with literally no downsides. What I am surprised is that almost no developer gives depth to the injury system. The graphics become nicer with the years but the gunplay itself progresses in baby steps even in games that are supposed to be realistic (ARMA, I`m looking at you).

Edited November 21, 2014 by ValentinBk

[pillock 850]

When you are standing on two legs, you are inherently unstable. You are constantly making small, subconscious adjustments, using several muscle groups, to retain your balance. If you aren't expecting an impact and you aren't braced against it, it doesn't take much force to knock you over. More than that, if the impact disrupts your ability to control the muscles that are keeping you upright, you go down pretty fast.

 

A small shove in a particular direction can send someone flying if they are off balance and their momentum is taking them in that direction already - there are martial arts that specialise in that sort of technique. The same shove will barely move that same person if they are ready for it and braced. The actual amount of physical force involved is not the only factor.

[Whyherro123 2283]

A square shot to the heart is pretty much instant death dude...  There really is no chance of coming back from that.  The lung and kidney shots though? Going to take a while in most cases depending on the round used.  In the case of a lung shot, most rifle rounds will not pass through enough tissue to start tumbling/dumping effectively unless it hits a rib or equipment.  If surgeons are rapidly available, a lung shot is highly survivable.

That is the thing. In Day Z, there are no surgeons available. Almost every single wound you take, with the exception of superficial surface scratches, will ultimately be fatal. You might not die right away from a lung shot, but you would eventually expire due to the lung collapsing. Or, you would bleed out over the course of a couple hours from a lacerated kidney.

 

I want this to happen. It would make playstyles much "slower", where people wouldn't rush into combat.

[gibonez 3633]

That is the thing. In Day Z, there are no surgeons available. Almost every single wound you take, with the exception of superficial surface scratches, will ultimately be fatal. You might not die right away from a lung shot, but you would eventually expire due to the lung collapsing. Or, you would bleed out over the course of a couple hours from a lacerated kidney.

I want this to happen. It would make playstyles much "slower", where people wouldn't rush into combat.

Yup if they get rid of the magical rags and incorporate a deep medical system I suspect people will dramatically change in how they play.

Hopefully we get A good medical system where a single bullet of any caliber to the right location could be lethal.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Yup if they get rid of the magical rags and incorporate a deep medical system I suspect people will dramatically change in how they play.

Hopefully we get A good medical system where a single bullet of any caliber to the right location could be lethal.

Exactly, rags and bandages should slow the blood flow but not inhibit it and fix you.  Having to constantly reapply new dressings and disinfect the wound.  Now for broken limbs, this would be a tough one to work out without totally gimping a player for the rest of their characters life.

[gibonez 3633]

Exactly, rags and bandages should slow the blood flow but not inhibit it and fix you. Having to constantly reapply new dressings and disinfect the wound. Now for broken limbs, this would be a tough one to work out without totally gimping a player for the rest of their characters life.

Something like this would be awesome.

Neck and artery shots where the bleeding cannot be stopped would be great too trick is to not let the player know that so they desperately keep reapplying rags and bandages trying to save their character.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Something like this would be awesome.

Neck and artery shots where the bleeding cannot be stopped would be great too trick is to not let the player know that so they desperately keep reapplying rags and bandages trying to save their character.

I want to hear more "sounds" coming from the character when they get injured. Whatever happened to the little mutterings and groans your character made earlier in the alpha? Those were awesome.

 

If you get shot, I expect you to scream in pain, at the very least, if not fall unconscious due to the shock. This screaming could draw zombies in, so your friends aren't just rushing to save you from bleeding out, they are trying to stabilize you enough so you can be moved "outta Dodge", away from the incoming zombies. A groan and a curse, whenever you step on a twisted ankle, could add verisimilitude to a limp. 

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

Something like this would be awesome.

Neck and artery shots where the bleeding cannot be stopped would be great too trick is to not let the player know that so they desperately keep reapplying rags and bandages trying to save their character.

This kind of stuff need proper visual presentation too. I want to see it actually happen to a character (blood,gore,animations) instead of seeing an "I was shot in the neck" "I`m rapidly losing blood" if it happens to me.

[Judopunch 523]

That is the thing. In Day Z, there are no surgeons available. Almost every single wound you take, with the exception of superficial surface scratches, will ultimately be fatal. You might not die right away from a lung shot, but you would eventually expire due to the lung collapsing. Or, you would bleed out over the course of a couple hours from a lacerated kidney.

 

I want this to happen. It would make playstyles much "slower", where people wouldn't rush into combat.

Its like people forget its a game LOL! I dont think you should die, because you scratched yourself on a fence. That may be realistic, but its not very fun. Authenticity would be better. 

 

Id like to meet you half way. Injury persists over time. For example if you got shot in the leg, dont expect to be springing for the next two hours of the characters life, and if you try be prepared to re-fracture it and have to crawl.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Its like people forget its a game LOL! I dont think you should die, because you scratched yourself on a fence. That may be realistic, but its not very fun. Authenticity would be better. 

 

Id like to meet you half way. Injury persists over time. For example if you got shot in the leg, dont expect to be springing for the next two hours of the characters life, and if you try be prepared to re-fracture it and have to crawl.

You won't die from the scratch, no, but you will probably die from the infection it causes.

 

There is one facet of survival that people not trained it it often do not realize: in a survival situation, when (not if) you get injured, it will get infected. Bandages, antibiotic creams, and alcohol wipes are all excellent things to have, but life (microbiotic life, to be exact), will find a way. I have developed infected wounds while working at a summer camp, after they were covered via bandage and cleaned with alcohol. The sweat, dead skin cells, and gunk from the outside still got into the wound.

 

Was it a major infection, oozing pus and interfering with my life? No, I recognized the early stages, re-cleaned it, and the infection cleared itself up in short order.

 

Now, imagine this in a world where there wasn't a sterile dressing to cover a wound with, no alcohol prep pads or Triple Antibiotic spreads to clean them. Splinters (let us say, from your fence example), were the worst, combining puncture wounds and "foreign" organic material for a one-two punch of infectious matter.. Most of my infections were due to splinters. I had one (a particularly large splinter) in my hand, and I couldn't get all of it out. It developed into a nasty infection, one where I had to go to the actual hospital, let the doctors cut it out, and get a shot of antibiotics right in the ass, because the oral antibiotics I was already taking weren't doing jack shit.

 

Infections should be a constant concern when injured. If you don't have synthesized antibiotics available, there are some "natural" sources that can help.

• Honey: honey has antimicrobial and antifungal properties.
• Sphagnum moss: has been used for thousands of years as a dressing due to its antimicrobial properties.
• Salt/Sugar: dump a whole shit-ton of either/or on a wound. It will hurt like a motherfucker, but the salt/sugar will;

1. create an environment where infection-causing bacteria cannot live
2. create a larger surface area for blood platelets to stick to, often stopping bleeding earlier. Just don't peel off the scab.
3. (Sugar only) be absorbed by the body, giving a burst of energy and often helping treat the symptoms of shock.

[jacksparrows 31]

This is a game and should be treated as such. Don't get me wrong, I like the ideas of a more in-depth medical system and such but I do NOT want it to turn into a tedious system that demands so much attention in game that it detracts from the point of playing. Fun.

 

There would have to be sacrifices in realism to avoid this becoming a "Constantly searching for medical gear because the game went to realistic on wounds simulator"

[Whyherro123 2283]

Not even including the fact that your immune system would be depressed as a result of the poor food, lack of quality rest (inferring our characters sleep on the ground, etc), increased metabolic requirements due to temperature, as well as the fear and stress they would be under.

[Whyherro123 2283]

This is a game and should be treated as such. Don't get me wrong, I like the ideas of a more in-depth medical system and such but I do NOT want it to turn into a tedious system that demands so much attention in game that it detracts from the point of playing. Fun.

 

There would have to be sacrifices in realism to avoid this becoming a "Constantly searching for medical gear because the game went to realistic on wounds simulator"

There is no such thing as "too much realism". There is only "realistic" and "unrealistic".

 

Want to avoid "constantly searching for medical gear"? Easy, don't get injured. Avoid unecessary PvP, walk slowly/don't jump over things (to avoid tripping and falling, as well as other leg injuries), and think of  ways to take out zombies that leave you with the least possible risk to self.  If you get injured, you did something wrong.

[gibonez 3633]

This is a game and should be treated as such. Don't get me wrong, I like the ideas of a more in-depth medical system and such but I do NOT want it to turn into a tedious system that demands so much attention in game that it detracts from the point of playing. Fun.

Absolutely the wrong approach for dayz.

If that approach were taken from the beginning day z would have never existed.

http://youtu.be/b4SzUIfBJeU

[Judopunch 523]

There is no such thing as "too much realism". There is only "realistic" and "unrealistic".

 

Want to avoid "constantly searching for medical gear"? Easy, don't get injured. Avoid unecessary PvP, walk slowly/don't jump over things (to avoid tripping and falling, as well as other leg injuries), and think of  ways to take out zombies that leave you with the least possible risk to self.  If you get injured, you did something wrong.

As the Devs have said, they arnt going for realism. They are going for authenticity. 

 

One is fun, the other is real life.

[gibonez 3633]

Every day the op gets a like guess people like the idea.

[scriptfactory 620]

Don't necro. Just make a new thread, dude.

[Pyongo Bongo 250]

i hate how sometimes i shoot someones knee to make them unable to walk, their leg does not break, and as i shoot their other knee they INSTANTLY DIE >:(

[BleedoutBill 1636]

Going back to the OP, I think what he is saying is that there should be more potential stages between full capacity and unconsciousness/death. As it stands, even a mortally wounded character can still run at 30kph and swing a 9kg sledgehammer with full power. Once he has bled sufficiently, he falls down dead, as if someone flipped off his power switch. This is just ridiculous.

 

In terms of diminished capacity, as far as we know, only a limp animation is currently planned, but it remains to be seen if this will be merely a cosmetic element, or if it will actually hinder a character's mobility. What we need is a time line, of sorts, beginning with full capacity, followed by degrees of diminished capacity, followed by incapacitation, before ultimately reaching unconsciousness and death. The type and severity of the injury would dictate the character's start position on the time line as well as the prognosis for recovery.

 

According to the latest Status Report, it looks like a more in-depth health and medical system is finally going to be a reality. Finally, the “magic rags” will be supplemented with a variety of different treatments. Hopefully this new system will include interim degrees of health and their effect on character mobility. If so, the devs could easily dovetail into this system to portray the results of combat-related trauma, as well. Could this be the reason that the limp animation was leaked ages ago, but has still not been implemented? Limping as well as the effects of more traumatic injuries (as in the OP videos) would seem to be the logical next step, once the medical foundation has been implemented.

 

At the very least, I think that we can all agree that this is a very exciting stage of development.

[trev186 389]

Not a bad idea but I am pretty sure 9 out of 10 players will either leave u to die or double tap u