NO KOS same as PVE Only?

[feeblemedic 5]

I was told that having "NO KOS" in the server title was a violation of the rule that says you can't have a "Player Versus Environment Only" rule for servers.

 

My understanding is that the two terms are different and exclusive of one another.

 

I understand "NO KOS" to still allow the killing of other players and requesting a moment of reflection at best, before pulling the trigger....more of a suggestion really, since you could never kick for a violation of this rule since you will never know if the shooter "spent a moment reflecting on his choice to shoot or not".

 

AND

 

"PVE ONLY" means that you may not kill another player under any circumstances and taking such obvious action would/my result in a kick from the server.

 

Therefore, I don't see a "NO KOS" tag in the title of the server being a violation of the no "PVE only" rule as they cover distinct actions from one another.

 

Am I viewing these tags incorrectly?

 

I'm just looking for some community feedback on whether there is a distinction between these terms, because it seems that those interpreting these rules see "NO KOS" = "PVE only" and I simply disagree....but i've been wrong before.

 

Any meaningful feedback is appreciated.

 

 

[Geckofrog7 1168]

You're right.

KoS means to kill without a second thought, no matter what.

PvE means nobody killing each other period.

Therefore, no KoS simply means "don't be a douche", and think a moment about why you are actually shooting this guy.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Geckofrog7

[Max Planck 7174]

Doesn't matter. You can't kick someone because you think he's 'being a douche'.

From the server rules:

 

You may perform the following actions on your server :

• Restart server
• Kick abusive players (harassment, cheating, exploiting bugs)

           - Be aware that this can tread a fine line, and if you are found to be violating this rule your server may be disabled until the issue can be addressed. 

• Turn the server off

[Geckofrog7 1168]

I don't necessarily think he's thinking of kicking players, I think he was just wondering what the tags meant. (If you look at both the SA and mod there's a bunch of servers with PvE & no KoS tags all the time, whether they actually follow through or not,)

Edited April 16, 2014 by Geckofrog7

[Symbiont (DayZ) 4]

 

Doesn't matter. You can't kick someone because you think he's 'being a douche'.

From the server rules:

 

You may perform the following actions on your server :

• Restart server
• Kick abusive players (harassment, cheating, exploiting bugs)

           - Be aware that this can tread a fine line, and if you are found to be violating this rule your server may be disabled until the issue can be addressed. 

• Turn the server off

 

Who said anything about kicking people? Does the server title say "no KOS or you will be kicked"?

[feeblemedic 5]

Just to be clear, the alleged violation was not for kicking a player, it was for simply having "NO KOS" in the server title.  And I was specifically told by the GSP that having "NO KOS" in the server title was a violation of the specific rule of no "PVE only" in the title.

 

I have never kicked anyone from my server for KOS (or any other rule violation cause there aren't any), I want players in my server, why would I kick someone?

 

I've read the rules multiple times and believe I understand what they say and the reasoning behind them, and i've never violated any rule intentionally.  Obviously, if the rules included something specific to no having "NO KOS" in the title right near the "NO PVE ONLY" rule, there would be no confusion on my part, it is the grouping of the two terms together that confused me, as I see them as having distinct meanings.

 

If you read my original post you would see that I don't/couldn't kick for it.  How could I kick somone for killing before thinking if I have no way of knowing what he was thinking. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by feeblemedic

[feeblemedic 5]

 

Doesn't matter. You can't kick someone because you think he's 'being a douche'.

From the server rules:

 

You may perform the following actions on your server :

• Restart server
• Kick abusive players (harassment, cheating, exploiting bugs)

           - Be aware that this can tread a fine line, and if you are found to be violating this rule your server may be disabled until the issue can be addressed. 

• Turn the server off

 

That simply wasn't the question as they stated above, I've never kicked for anything.  I simply use NO KOS in server title to express the desire for players to not kill everyone immediately without giving it a bit of thought.  It was just shorter to place in the title than "Please don't just kill on sight without giving it some thought, but if you do, you won't be kicked or banned or anything....we just frown upon it...enjoy your game."  My understanding was that "NO KOS" meant the above and not PVE only.  If there was a short phrase to get the above sentiments across in the server title I'd be happey with that....maybe "KOS frowned upon"?

Edited April 16, 2014 by feeblemedic

[Trigger Hippy 176]

 

Doesn't matter. You can't kick someone because you think he's 'being a douche'.

From the server rules:

 

You may perform the following actions on your server :

• Restart server
• Kick abusive players (harassment, cheating, exploiting bugs)

           - Be aware that this can tread a fine line, and if you are found to be violating this rule your server may be disabled until the issue can be addressed. 

• Turn the server off

 

 

True, but if you have some guys in a group constantly griefing you on a server, and it's a server you pay for with the fruits of your labour, I'd say you wouldn't be considered unreasonable if you booted their ass.

[feeblemedic 5]

True, but if you have some guys in a group constantly griefing you on a server, and it's a server you pay for with the fruits of your labour, I'd say you wouldn't be considered unreasonable if you booted their ass.

 

I appreciate your position, sir; but i believe that is a clear violation of the rule, reasonable or not.  However, I would like to keep this discussion free from the term kicking a player for anything, as that is not what my question or alleged violation was about.  The question is simply about what is permissible in a game name and whether or not the terms "NO KOS" & "PVE only" have similar meanings and should be grouped together. 

 

****on second thought, I believe the scenario described by Trigger Hippy may fall under the implied "just cause" kick, in the following section of the rules, depending on what you mean by "griefing". (These rules, as written, can be a bit confusing)

You may not perform the following actions on your server :

• Kick players without just cause 

Edited April 16, 2014 by feeblemedic

[Elle 562]

I see a lot of servers that say "No KOS" I don't see any that say "PVE Only" (not that I really look that hard for em). I will say this however - I get a good chuckle from the "No KOS" servers cause its not like you're gonna get kicked or anything for it (as stated by the OP). I do have respect for the server admins that try to keep it friendly though and I think that being able to express that in the server name simply makes good sense. kudos OP for running a friendly "No KOS" server and good luck with the enforcement of that policy. oh I almost forgot - I agree with the OP on the definitions of "PVE only" and "No KOS" 

[feeblemedic 5]

I see a lot of servers that say "No KOS" I don't see any that say "PVE Only" (not that I really look that hard for em). I will say this however - I get a good chuckle from the "No KOS" servers cause its not like you're gonna get kicked or anything for it (as stated by the OP). I do have respect for the server admins that try to keep it friendly though and I think that being able to express that in the server name simply makes good sense. kudos OP for running a friendly "No KOS" server and good luck with the enforcement of that policy. oh I almost forgot - I agree with the OP on the definitions of "PVE only" and "No KOS" 

 

 

Thanks!!

 

As far as enforcement....I'll rely on the good citizens of Chernarus to self police ;)

 

I mean it's not like we really have a choice from where I stand, and is regularly pointed out, admins have very little control. 

 

Even if i wanted to kick for specifc outlined reasons such as "cheating, exploiting bugs" which everyone agrees on; how am I supposed to know what player it is unless they tell me in chat? 

 

We have ran into actual cheaters in the game before, the kind that teleport around and wipe characters as fast as they can spawn.  But we have no recourse outside of restarting the server, because there are currently no logs of which I'm aware that would tell me who any given player is at any time.  Maybe i just don't get it, but how does an admin perform a legitimate kick of a cheater if they don't identify themselves in game chat?  We do appear to have logged some BattleEye bans, so i'm thankful for those.

 

 

***** this guy feels my pain.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/181889-what-to-do-with-cheaters/

Edited April 16, 2014 by feeblemedic

[Inception. 9443]

I do believe, in the mind of the server owners, that No KoS equates to PVE Only; how can one differentiate between a 'kill-on-sight' kill and a 'non-kill-on-sight' kill? 

[feeblemedic 5]

I do believe, in the mind of the server owners, that No KoS equates to PVE Only; how can one differentiate between a 'kill-on-sight' kill and a 'non-kill-on-sight' kill? 

  Can you explain this a little?  I have went into great detail about how it is impossible to differntiate between kos and non kos, thus there can't be enforcement....since there is no enforcement there is no reason to differentiate.  However, we are talking about the meaning of tags in server title only, not enforcement of any rule.  I just can't wrap my head around NO KOS and PVE ONLY having the same meaning.  To me, if one server has NO KOS and one says PVE only, i do not expect the rules to be the same.  I mean, if i wanted no kill, i would have it "NO KILL" there is no reason for the addition of "on sight" if you plan on kicking people for killing (period).  If you could explain your reasoning a little more I would appreciate it. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by feeblemedic

[Goove 70]

To the OP, i feel that your server company is allowing a bad ticket to dictate an unclear policy.  KoS=Kill on site, has been a term used for along time with this game.  If your server name is Welcome all No KoS--or 4 hr restart epic loot NO KoS--- i would see no problem with it, but if the name is Lets kill zombies, PvE only, and so on.  Then i would see a rule violation.

 

 

In all honest No KoS servers usually play the best even if its "not followed", you get geared bandits and heros running around.  I really do think the company is wasting its time hounding you over something when there is clearly servers in BOLD violation of the rule.  Best of luck and i hope all works out!!

[Goove 70]

If there isnt enforcement behind it and no tickets reported of you kicking people, then it honestly it really looks like reaching on the server owners :/

Edited April 16, 2014 by Goove

[Inception. 9443]

  Can you explain this a little?  I have went into great detail about how it is impossible to differntiate between kos and non kos, thus there can't be enforcement....since there is no enforcement there is no reason to differentiate.  However, we are talking about the meaning of tags in server title only, not enforcement of any rule.  I just can't wrap my head around NO KOS and PVE ONLY having the same meaning.  To me, if one server has NO KOS and one says PVE only, i do not expect the rules to be the same.  I mean, if i wanted no kill, i would have it "NO KILL" there is no reason for the addition of "on sight" if you plan on kicking people for killing (period).  If you could explain your reasoning a little more I would appreciate it. 

 

Sorry, I'll elaborate. I didn't say that No KoS and PVE Only actually have the same meaning, but the mind of some server owners, as said, it does. This is because of one's inability to differentiate between the following two things:

 

KoS means to kill without a second thought, no matter what.

Therefore, no KoS simply means "don't be a douche", and think a moment about why you are actually shooting this guy.

 

You can't possibly tell if someone has taken a moment to think about the reason for shooting, or someone has just shot them on sight. 

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Goove 70]

You can't possibly tell if someone has taken a moment to think about the reason for shooting, or someone has just shot them on sight. 

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

 

 

In all honesty though what does it matter, why do you need to know if they killed on sight or not.  The issue is not about who is killing on site and who is not, its about the obvious screaming differences between No KoS and PvE only.  To my understanding you are saying the two are the same..so i ask you this..How are they the same?  Not in minds of the server owners, in your mind how are they the same.  Just because they say there the same, doesnt mean its true.  PvE= Player vs Environment----If you could somehow enforce the rules the rules would be do not shoot another player.  No KoS means breathe check gear levels, check threat level, call out position and stalk.  You still are pulling triggers on players.

 

To say No KoS and PvE Only means the same thing is just plain uneducated.  I don't care if Jesus comes back and says it.  It wont make it correct.  If you play this game and your scrolling through the server list, you know damn well PvE or Zombie killing only is not the same as No KoS.  To say otherwise would make you a liar :)

[Inception. 9443]

To say No KoS and PvE Only means the same thing is just plain uneducated.  I don't care if Jesus comes back and says it.  It wont make it correct.  If you play this game and your scrolling through the server list, you know damn well PvE or Zombie killing only is not the same as No KoS.  To say otherwise would make you a liar :)

 

I never said they were the same thing. I know they aren't the same thing.

 

 

No KoS means breathe check gear levels, check threat level, call out position and stalk.  You still are pulling triggers on players.

 

What would be classified as breaking the 'No KoS' rule', then?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Inception.

[Symbiont (DayZ) 4]

I never said they were the same thing. I know they aren't the same thing.

What I find amusing is what has been pointed out multiple times.

The "rule" about PVE Only is moot since a server admin cannot tell from a list of 40 players who shot them to begin with. It's a silly rule, with reasoning that doesn't even make sense.

Moreover the fact that forum team members are automatically interpreting what "no KOS" infers. The FACT is, the only way this could be a punishable offense is if said player got kicked immediately after killing someone and had to ASSUME it was an admin - and with the current lax server controls how would an admin do that exactly?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Symbiont

[Inception. 9443]

Moreover the fact that forum team members are automatically interpreting what "no KOS" infers. 

 

I don't see how our status' as moderators is relevant. 

[Symbiont (DayZ) 4]

I don't see how our status' as moderators is relevant. 

 

Feel free to not dodge my question and answer it, instead of pinpointing one statement.

[Inception. 9443]

Feel free to not dodge my question and answer it, instead of pinpointing one statement.

 

What, this?

 

and with the current lax server controls how would an admin do that exactly?

 

I'm not sure how they would. That is why I did not answer it. So again, I'm not sure how the status of moderator is relevant.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Inception.

[Goove 70]

There is no rule, therefore how can No KoS on the server name be in violation.. is my whole point...they say its in violation of naming it PvE only....When it can not be in violation of that rule because they arent even in the same book of meaning.  Admin couldnt control the KoS rule if they wanted to..if they tried to..there is no way for them...So my question is why are the breaking balls and standing on a box made out of toothpicks.  Thats all i meant with my last comment.

[feeblemedic 5]

Here is the response I got.

 

Hello,

I'm afraid NO KOS cannot be a part of the server's name, I can confirm this.
However, you can include this message as a part of your server's
description, not a name.
--
Best regards,

Jan Libich
Customer Support Team
Bohemia Interactive

 

However, I find it pretty offensive that I can be held to rules and considered in violation of rules that are so vague and broadly interpreted.  There is no way I had advanced notice that putting "NO KOS" in my server name was a violation of the rules as they are currently published.  The only people I've found that consider PVE ONLY and NO KOS to be the same term are forum mods here (and they even say the terms are different, unless they are applied against server admins!!!). 

 

I am gonna have to think real hard before I continue to pay for a server when the rules could be "re-interpreted" at any time, and all monies I paid for the server will be lost because I had no way of knowing what the actual rules are in advance.  In fact, in my country this type of business practice is illegal, you can't hold someone to contract terms that are not clear to both parties ahead of time.  If reasonable people can disagree on the meaning of a broad term, for example "just cause" then the benefit of doubt is generally given to the potential offender until the rules can be modified to be more clear; which is what I think should be done here.

 

I don't have a problem with rules, I just like to know what they are in advance.  Please have someone make the rules clear, so mis-understandings like this don't cost people who pay these outrageous fees for servers money.

 

So to comply with the current rules, the server name has been changed to : "24/7 Day-Noob Friendly KOS discouraged (2h Restarts) jrks.org"......I hope everyone can sleep at night now :)

Edited April 17, 2014 by feeblemedic

[Max Planck 7174]

The only people I've found that consider PVE ONLY and NO KOS to be the same term are forum mods here

 

Quote us please.