Can Nothing be done about MetaGaming in Dayz?

[Valadain 270]

It's nothing to do with how I choose to play the game. If I like 3pp or not does not change it fitting the definition of metagaming. Hell you even confirmed it yourself when you said 3pp should be considered "out of character" which *is* what metagaming is, or do you think you're playing someone standing 5 feet behind the character you see on your screen? Are you role playing as a ghost haunting the poor bastard?

 

:lol:

 

I would have confirmed it, if I hadn't, you know, said that this isn't a role playing game. It is a sandbox game. You might role play in it, certainly. But you don't have to.

 

There are definitely arguments to be made about how 3pp works, but it isn't meta-gaming. All the info you are working with is coming from the game.

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

What’s more is that according to PC Games and another nifty user investigation (with the original thread from the forum having been removed by moderators, of course), the analysis found that Origin will scan your entire PC and collect certain kinds of data to send data back and forth to EA to check whether serial numbers and product keys match up, whether said keys are up-to-date or whether or not they are legit, as well as activity performed with other software -- apparently for marketing purposes. 

 

Yeah, your not being scanned.. no.. never, no company would ever do such.. that's silly. So silly.. 

 

Want to see just how much your being watched? Learn to monitor exactly where all your bandwidth is going and what it contains with various tools on the net, I won't help you there, but simple google searches and some research and you'll learn your not so concealed in your net activities, what your running in the background or what is installed on your system, even if most of what goes out isn't concerned with whom you are exactly.

 

 

Actually dude,

 

I am a pentester, I work for a world leading provider of customer comunication solutions, and own my own server hosting company.

Before you start sprouting of maybe you should share your qualifications, Because I know better then most people what my computer is sending, what is being tracked and not tracked, and which processes are being scanned.

 

As for the tools your talking about... let me take a wild guess here.. tcpdump, wireshark, procexplorer, IDA, anything I'm missing? If so please share because curious minds want to know and share your knowledge.

 

And as for origin.. initially it did scan more then it should and it got exposed now when you install it, it asks if it can scan your system for marketing purposes and send that information back. however what you dont seem to realise is this... There is a differance between scanning for know signatures and just scanning a system. When your scanning for known signatures it DISREGARDS everything that is not known because it simply not told to look for it. It's the same with antivirus.... It can also scan for what it already knowns even it's heuristics are based on known viral behavior.

 

Nobody is looking at those scan results and going "oh look he visited redtube last night " the scanner is going is that exploit/virus/cheatZ? > no > disregard file.

[Windex 13]

Three Problems:

1. Third Party COMMS

2. Brightness/Gamma Exploit

3. FOV Exploit

 

 

 

1.  Third party comms are here to stay, as is the simple expedient of playing with people in the same room.    The in-game comms simply stink anyways; I've never, ever been able to understand a word anyone is saying through them.

 

2.  There is enough variability in hardware to make gamma adjustments necessary, plus the whole thing about varying brightness levels in the room your monitor is in.  Proper design of materials and shaders will preclude exploiting gamma anyways.

 

3.  This is very easily fixed.

 

 

A bigger problem than all of this is the rampant server hopping.   That's easily addressed with private hives.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Windex

[gibonez 3633]

 

A bigger problem than all of this is the rampant server hopping.   That's easily addressed with private hives.

 

This can also be address with having one player per server even on public hives.

[Ovomaltine 30]

Haven't read all of it.

But my opinion is:
 

People can use their home phone anytime, you can't keep them from doing so if they like to.

But for most of the groups maybe they don't want to exchange real phone numbers etc.

 

So the best thing is, as already mentioned, to lock the recording of ingame voice.

The microphone can of course be muted by many ways but this will also mute any other communication via that PC.

 

So basically it would force anyone who wants to secretly communicate with a friend/in-game-friend while in presence of an unknown player

to use either a phone (too complicated i guess, 90% wouldnt do that i guess) OR use another computer and mute the mic of the gaming PC while speaking over the comms of the other PC.

The latter is also only possible if u have another comp of course. And u have to deal with a lot of stuff at the same time so it actually renders u vulnerable during contact with unknown persons.

 

I think the forcing of enabling the recording of ALL mic devices connected to the gaming comp is a good solution for direct chat.

And yes for Radio comms a PTT can be pushed, while this doesnt affect direct comms at all (they're ALWAYS on).

 

--> Autodetect all mics -> Force record for direct.

--> Can always be muted for "Real-Life"-Issues. But then everything is muted ofc.
 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Ovomaltine

[Valadain 270]

Haven't read all of it.

But my opinion is:

 

People can use their home phone anytime, you can't keep them from doing so if they like to.

But for most of the groups maybe they don't want to exchange real phone numbers etc.

 

So the best thing is, as already mentioned, to lock the recording of ingame voice.

The microphone can of course be muted by many ways but this will also mute any other communication via that PC.

 

So basically it would force anyone who wants to secretly communicate with a friend/in-game-friend while in presence of an unknown player

to use either a phone (too complicated i guess, 90% wouldnt do that i guess) OR use another computer and mute the mic of the gaming PC while speaking over the comms of the other PC.

The latter is also only possible if u have another comp of course. And u have to deal with a lot of stuff at the same time so it actually renders u vulnerable during contact with unknown persons.

 

I think the forcing of enabling the recording of ALL mic devices connected to the gaming comp is a good solution for direct chat.

And yes for Radio comms a PTT can be pushed, while this doesnt affect direct comms at all (they're ALWAYS on).

 

--> Autodetect all mics -> Force record for direct.

--> Can always be muted for "Real-Life"-Issues. But then everything is muted ofc.

 

 

This would actually be hilarious. Ever switched to some of your non-active mic ports? Some are silent, some give you all sorts of fun noises. Not to mention, lots of sound hardware has a redirect mic, so people would be running around playing their own game sounds through direct inception style.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Haven't read all of it.

But my opinion is:

 

People can use their home phone anytime, you can't keep them from doing so if they like to.

But for most of the groups maybe they don't want to exchange real phone numbers etc.

 

So the best thing is, as already mentioned, to lock the recording of ingame voice.

The microphone can of course be muted by many ways but this will also mute any other communication via that PC.

 

So basically it would force anyone who wants to secretly communicate with a friend/in-game-friend while in presence of an unknown player

to use either a phone (too complicated i guess, 90% wouldnt do that i guess) OR use another computer and mute the mic of the gaming PC while speaking over the comms of the other PC.

The latter is also only possible if u have another comp of course. And u have to deal with a lot of stuff at the same time so it actually renders u vulnerable during contact with unknown persons.

 

I think the forcing of enabling the recording of ALL mic devices connected to the gaming comp is a good solution for direct chat.

And yes for Radio comms a PTT can be pushed, while this doesnt affect direct comms at all (they're ALWAYS on).

 

--> Autodetect all mics -> Force record for direct.

--> Can always be muted for "Real-Life"-Issues. But then everything is muted ofc.

 

You don't need a second computer to mute the in-game mic. It's very simple to change the mic settings or even install a virtual audio cable which changes where input is sent to. "Auto-detecting" it wouldn't work.

[AzrailCross 48]

I am a pentester, I work for a world leading provider of customer comunication solutions, and own my own server hosting company. - Congratulations.

Before you start sprouting of maybe you should share your qualifications... - I don't have a need to.

 

As for the tools your talking about... let me take a wild guess here.. tcpdump, wireshark, procexplorer, IDA, anything I'm missing? If so please share because curious minds want to know and share your knowledge. - Sure, I'll just nod and agree on this point without going further.

 

And as for origin.. initially it did scan more then it should and it got exposed now when you install it, it asks if it can scan your system for marketing purposes and send that information back. - I'm aware of that.

 

The point isn't if they still are, it's that it's been done, and is still being done on a very common basis, more so than most would consider! Obviously you seem to know better than most since it's not exactly on the forefront of everyone's interest, yet that just makes your statements and hostility ALL the more out of sorts if your telling the truth.

 

When you make a statement claiming it'd be a breach of privacy in regards to them disabling access to the servers for running certain programs (which I never originally suggested in the first place and provided far better alternatives even if doing so would send a message about their desires of the game.. to which you responded with nothing but hostility.) and calling it a massive breach in privacy, you made that statement with a very serious lack of reasoning, and even destroy your own reasoning that it'd be a breach of privacy in this very post.

 

If your aware that programs already do a search of your running programs (and indeed in some cases your installed programs) by running straight checks for said software or it's processes; then you of ALL people should be aware it's already done on a very common basis, and is NOT a breach of privacy UNLESS it goes toward reporting back to someone with truly private information.

 

however what you dont seem to realise is this... - I actually do realize it, and even stated it in my previous posts.. 

 

There is a differance between scanning for know signatures and just scanning a system. When your scanning for known signatures it DISREGARDS everything that is not known because it simply not told to look for it. It's the same with antivirus.... It can also scan for what it already knowns even it's heuristics are based on known viral behavior. - Now onto the key point of the wholllleee matter. I already stated this, repeatedly, in my last post. To save myself time, unpacking to my new home :D .. here goes again!

 

Quote of my last post - ** Your running programs have been scanned and in some cases even installed programs that aren't running, but in 99.9% of cases are not reported back to the creators unless it's hacking software tampering with the game itself, by almost every game you've played online. Some only protect the program from tampering, but most do a literal search of the system for known programs they don't want running. **

 

Nobody is looking at those scan results and going "oh look he visited redtube last night " the scanner is going is that exploit/virus/cheatZ? > no > disregard file. - and again I'm litterly taking my last post and repasting it to reply to your statement..

 

Quote: *  does not equal a breach of privacy: unlike reporting what software is in use/installed by exactly who, what's been typed or said while the software is active, collecting truly private personal information, having someone personally view that information, storing said information, selling the information, or anything else that would be a true breach of privacy. *

 

So anyway, said enough and don't care to have any further discussion on it, I never wanted to see Third Party VOIP done away with, even stating in my original post it's a pointless venture that'd be gotten around in seconds as much as it'd send a message of the dev's desires to only use in game means to communicate, it'd be better to simply encourage ingame communication by making it the truly better option. 

 

Edit - Short Version:

All of the above is me agreeing with you. Simply because I said all the same things in my post your replying to. I know nobody is looking at the information directly, I said so in my last post. It can happen, but no company really has the time to siphon through every users computer data on a individual basis, that'd be .. overload and fairly pointless.

 

When scanning for programs - it's searching for known programs / processes / ect to redflag..  said so in my last post & like I said in my last post, it's not a breach of privacy to do said scans; unless it goes deeper into collecting personal information and then sending it back to be viewed, stored, or sold and even then most EULA's cover the collection of personal information, funnily enough.. but the community uproar would be fun to watch.

 

In the end though, far more invasive searches than just what programs are running goes on more often than most would like.

 

 

 

In the end your wildly confusing though :P

 

Here's your original post.

They aren't even allowed to scan my computer for that, it would be way to invasive 

 

 

Here's your current post.

 

Massacre

Posted Yesterday, 02:58 AM

Nobody is looking at those scan results and going "oh look he visited redtube last night " the scanner is going is that exploit/virus/cheatZ? > no > disregard file.

 

 

 

So first it's to invasive, next post it's your well aware it's not invasive at all. So yes, they are allowed as you've just said in your last post, it's not a breach of privacy, and your apparently quite aware they are already doing it to an extent.

 

So again, it'd not be a breach of privacy to have a scan for known third party VOIP, and disable access to their servers if a redflag is returned for known VOIP software being in use. Well, not anymore a breach of privacy than to have a scan for known hacking software in the background / cracked modifications / DLL hooks and so on - and having an automated response to said software. 

 

But per standard 'must put this in so I don't get anyone confused', I do not support the idea of banning third party VOIP; it's a ridiculous thought that wouldn't resolve anything and again; the whole point of making mention of it (what, two posts ago?) -- to begin with was to point out the flaws to those who'd recommended it and suggest better alternatives in my opinion. 

 

But legally, it's fine and not actually invasive at all. Well, it can be, all a matter of how far they want to go, but in general; no, it wouldn't be invasive or keep any personal records. So.. essentially.. all in all..

 

TLDR... just read my last post, it's .. literally the same thing I've said before, again, since well, nothing's changed.

Edited April 18, 2014 by AzrailCross

[mgc 92]

About the direct comms always being on;

If you live nearby i.e. a busy road, you'll be transmitting your location constantly unless you mute your mic, which could be inconvenient in sudden encounters.

[Ninja_Meh 115]

1. Nothing can be done. We can't control what programs people run in the background unless they interfere with the game (hacks).

2. Night will be worked on further.

3. We are exploring ways of dealing with this. In the meantime, I would suggest playing on hardcore servers.

 

http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.bistudio.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F151705-Survival-Operations-Hard-Corps-(DayZ-ACE-ACRE-and-more)&ei=_VdQU--qCub8ygORt4C4DA&usg=AFQjCNGAwWqIXxyhWD6LjmsRospUcqfqZw&sig2=tBAynORWs02qK-E9e4I5Uw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.bGQ

No, and this is a common argument I hear for not even trying to mitigate the detriments of third-party comms.

 

Making it impossible is, as you say, an extreme. Like hacking (not equating third-party comms with hacking) it is not feasible to assert that one can "get rid of it entirely."

 

Making it difficult to use, cumbersome to manage (like having to dial your buddies up on a phone, in this example), and unattractive compared to in-game mechanics is the goal. Not making it impossible. There will always be workarounds. But making said workarounds more difficult and less-attractive than in-game mechanics makes all the sense in the world to me.

 

agree

It's wasting developer time on something people can and will circumvent within 5 seconds just by messing with their sound settings.

you cant circumvent it if they use the acre system and actually implement either the use of specific teamspeak servers within each server as is done in dayz hardcorps http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.bistudio.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F151705-Survival-Operations-Hard-Corps-(DayZ-ACE-ACRE-and-more)&ei=_VdQU--qCub8ygORt4C4DA&usg=AFQjCNGAwWqIXxyhWD6LjmsRospUcqfqZw&sig2=tBAynORWs02qK-E9e4I5Uw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.bGQ

 

it also kicks you from server if you have other voip running. i personally really liked playing on that mod, but would of liked it more if they had 3rd and 1st pp serv ers as well as just purely hardcore

 

It's effectively unenforceable, most people use push to talk anyway so would just set their mic to be muted until that key is pushed. Outcome is exactly the same as we have now.

again not if http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.bistudio.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F151705-Survival-Operations-Hard-Corps-(DayZ-ACE-ACRE-and-more)&ei=_VdQU--qCub8ygORt4C4DA&usg=AFQjCNGAwWqIXxyhWD6LjmsRospUcqfqZw&sig2=tBAynORWs02qK-E9e4I5Uw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.bGQ is in one form or another implemented.

 

pretty sad that everyone thinks it cannot be done , when quite clearly, as can be seen in these versions it can and has been done for a long while in HardCorps there servers were (and possibly still are) always rammed full even with the enforced use of voip client. to circumvent the whole argument i see coming of "you cant make peoople use teamspeak, some people like skype or whatever for their VOIP" to them i say, then maybe you are playing the wrong game. this game is and always was envisioned as a game DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to cater towards HARDCORE gamers who are tired of the monotony of lookalike games that have the same yet different playstyle gameplay and playerbase. and also this method could be used using either a mumble or a team speak server OR the dayz team code maybe write a super basic VOIP systyem that loads in the background into the games engine, meaning NO other voip could be used if you wanted to play dayz... that wouldnt bother me, because if i am having ann important conversation with my friends or family i would not be concentrating enough for me to play dayz any way, which usually means u die because your less awar of whats going on anyway

 

 

again click it and check it out http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.bistudio.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F151705-Survival-Operations-Hard-Corps-(DayZ-ACE-ACRE-and-more)&ei=_VdQU--qCub8ygORt4C4DA&usg=AFQjCNGAwWqIXxyhWD6LjmsRospUcqfqZw&sig2=tBAynORWs02qK-E9e4I5Uw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.bGQ

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

you cant circumvent it if they use the acre system and actually implement either the use of specific teamspeak servers within each server as is done in dayz hardcorps http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.bistudio.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F151705-Survival-Operations-Hard-Corps-(DayZ-ACE-ACRE-and-more)&ei=_VdQU--qCub8ygORt4C4DA&usg=AFQjCNGAwWqIXxyhWD6LjmsRospUcqfqZw&sig2=tBAynORWs02qK-E9e4I5Uw&bvm=bv.65058239,d.bGQ

Despite your enthusiasm to spam this mod, half the links don't work and I can't find anything explaining specifically how their voice chat system works, so I can't see if it is remotely like what I want (as mentioned in the post nobody can be bothered responding to).

 

it also kicks you from server if you have other voip running.

Sorry, 100% not interested. Edited April 18, 2014 by DarkwaveDomina

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

You will never fully solve metagaming, never.

 

Unless you come up with some way to wipe everyone's memory when they launch the game and make them believe they are actually in Chernarus, and actually trying to survive, you will never see an end to metagaming.

 

Even without third party comms, the gamma exploit, or the FOV exploit, people still come into this game with a meta-mindset.

 

The only way to get rid of this is to somehow magically devise some temporary device that wipes your head of any thoughts and makes you believe you are on the coast and not just playing a game on the computer, which is impossible and probably illegal.

[ptk (DayZ) 178]

You will never fully solve metagaming, never.

Unless you come up with some way to wipe everyone's memory when they launch the game and make them believe they are actually in Chernarus, and actually trying to survive, you will never see an end to metagaming.

Even without third party comms, the gamma exploit, or the FOV exploit, people still come into this game with a meta-mindset.

The only way to get rid of this is to somehow magically devise some temporary device that wipes your head of any thoughts and makes you believe you are on the coast and not just playing a game on the computer, which is impossible and probably illegal.

Do you think it has to go that far as to wipe someones memory? I would assume that when you spawn on the coast as a grown man or woman, that your character posses some memory and some knowledge. Now given in Dayz i don't think removing meta gaming is possible, and i don't think that it should even try to. But i can't help but think that meta gaming ruins a survival game at it's core because we have external sources of knowledge that we wouldn't be able to access if we washed up on the coast. I think this is the most fundamentally flawed concept of Dayz. Whether rocket agrees or not well...

Regardless, to me an ideal survival game would take you as you are, with whatever knowledge and understanding you have and throw you in the game, say a console type system with just this game installed with random spawns on a map the size of the known world, no way to communicate through external programs or no place to go to look up info- no map sites, forums, etc...There is very little chance to link up with friends or anything like that. Just you alone, dealing with the environment and people as they come into your in game existence...

I don't think it could ever be done, but i think that would be enough to wipe the meta game and the concept sounds pretty intense....

[ptk (DayZ) 178]

Stupid phone!

Edited April 18, 2014 by ptk

[Ninja_Meh 115]

Despite your enthusiasm to spam this mod, half the links don't work and I can't find anything explaining specifically how their voice chat system works, so I can't see if it is remotely like what I want (as mentioned in the post nobody can be bothered responding to).

 

Sorry, 100% not interested.

lol im not spamming shit, if you dont know about hardcorps, you dont know about it. but yes i think voip should be shunned in this game other than using ingame voip, and i couldnt care less if i had to be out of any other voip apps, but alas all the wah babies would get thier panties in a twist to have to god forbid do any forward planning BEFORE jumping into the game, and even more unlikely the new crowd could be arsed to actually look to use the in game mechanics to play the game in a fun way. seems every one just wants this game diluted down into, run from beach find gun shoot first thing that moves player or zombie, die as a consequence to this twitchy adhd playstyle then moan the game is too hard/boring/NEEDS MOAR GUNZ   

 

 

sigh

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

lol im not spamming shit, if you dont know about hardcorps, you dont know about it. but yes i think voip should be shunned in this game other than using ingame voip, and i couldnt care less if i had to be out of any other voip apps, but alas all the wah babies would get thier panties in a twist to have to god forbid do any forward planning BEFORE jumping into the game, and even more unlikely the new crowd could be arsed to actually look to use the in game mechanics to play the game in a fun way. seems every one just wants this game diluted down into, run from beach find gun shoot first thing that moves player or zombie, die as a consequence to this twitchy adhd playstyle then moan the game is too hard/boring/NEEDS MOAR GUNZ  

It's easy to shrug everyone off as being a casual or a COD player or something when they disagree with you, in this case you clearly haven't read my posts.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Stupid phone!

can't tell if metagaming related or not ;) (i mean it could be after all :P)

[joe_mcentire 2074]

one problem i often have is for example: i (lone wolf) meet 2 or 3 guys. at least i would like to know if and when they are talking to each other. So for that matter it would be suffice to let the game detect line-in data and simply play "mumble-mumble" ingame some sort of whispering gibberish. no significant impact on bandwidth and i would at least get an idea if they could plot something or not. Otherwise you are left completely in the dark.

 

my issue with voip is not really that much that i can team up/speak with someone accross the map but the random encounters with groups and teams. it would give you at least a far better chance to assess a situation properly.

Edited April 22, 2014 by joe_mcentire

[minime1000 78]

FOV changing is easy to fix and they will probably do it.

Gamma/brightness exploiting might be fixable.

 

But you can't do shit about voip programs and that is something you just need to accept when it comes to PC gaming.

[minime1000 78]

 

Things like the gamma and third party VOIP systems are to me, a part of gaming. Maybe they negate some of the ingame mechanics but that's true of any game. What was the point of group based comms in BF2 if everyone just used TS. Its just one of those things we have to live with.

 

Voip in BF2 was extremely useful and one of the few things that the BF series got right. Other than that, external voip programs cannot be stopped in any way

[Judopunch 523]

If you didnt want third party coms the only realistic solution is a private community that agrees to a set of RP rules. There are way to many ways around voice chat. 

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

one problem i often have is for example: i (lone wolf) meet 2 or 3 guys. at least i would like to know if and when they are talking to each other

I'd just assume they always are, it's also easy to know for sure because they will keep going quiet on VON while they discuss what to do with you.

[Ninja_Meh 115]

FOV changing is easy to fix and they will probably do it.

Gamma/brightness exploiting might be fixable.

 

But you can't do shit about voip programs and that is something you just need to accept when it comes to PC gaming.

 

if they lock you out of serv ers when other voip is detected except for the server specific tied voip (like teamspeak and acre) it is totally possible, but as i said probably likely to make people cry about it so much that they wont do it. its a shame because it would be great if the only way to team talk was using a walkie talkie whilst all other forms of communication were audible to everyone

[weedmasta 784]

3. We are exploring ways of dealing with this. In the meantime, I would suggest playing on hardcore servers.

 

There is no difference on hardcore servers. You can adjust the FOV and have incredible "zoom" there as well.

[ravinus 3]

even if they did find a way to turn off third party voip services while the game is running there is nothing stopping us from using our mic on a separate pc or laptop to get around it. all it would do is waste development time that could be spent on problems that can actually be fixed.