Can Nothing be done about MetaGaming in Dayz?

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I didn't even think about that. I guess battleye could kick people if it detects teamspeak or mumble are on.

 

They could also kick you if you are on the most common ports used by ts and mumble.

Again when they do anything like this I simply uninstall DayZ and stop playing, I am not having DayZ or Battleye dictate which legitimate apps I can and cannot use on my computer. Stopping anything other than cheating software is well outside anything they can possibly justify and is essentially turning the game in to malware. Instead of dreaming up ways of interfering with my computer why have not a single one of you responded to my suggestions in post #48?

[yorkmorgan 191]

I feel a bit like this thread has served its purpose. It was very interesting when the devs were responding and I got all the answers I was looking for but now it seems to have turned into a discussion about 3pp (for reasons that are beyond me) and how we all want to remain free citizens and not live in an Orwellian state ruled over by the Dayz devs...

 

WTF is this thread even about anymore? 

Please discuss cheese, and its possible addition to DayZ.

 Can this thread please be ended/return to the actual discussion/become a discussion about cheeses. I would like stilton.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

how we all want to remain free citizens and not live in an Orwellian state ruled over by the Dayz devs...

We're discussing the pros and cons of different ways of "dealing with" third-party comms, just because you don't like the arguments in favour of them doesn't make them off topic. Christ.

[yorkmorgan 191]

We're discussing the pros and cons of different ways of "dealing with" third-party comms, just because you don't like the arguments in favour of them doesn't make them off topic. Christ.

Its just that if you read the earlier posts one of the devs emphatically stated that nothing will be done about third party comms in dayz. So I do find a purely theoretical discussion about the legalities of a program that closes third party comms programmes to now be irrelevant as this is all about Metagaming in Dayz.

[DMack 60]

I remember Punk Busters used to kick people running Nvidia GPU monitoring software in certain games because it would draw your FPS on the screen and applications that are detected drawing things on your screen could be hacks. Same concept.

[Valadain 270]

It's a discussion on Metagaming in DayZ and third person is clearly metagaming so It's not entirely off topic, however I do agree that this shouldn't become another 3pp argument, as you said we do have another thread specifically for that element, this one is more general.

 

Third person is not meta-gaming. Meta-gaming is using knowledge gained external to the game or tools external to the game to provide an advantage in the game. Third Person does not fit this definition. It is a mechanic in the game. Pushing your camera through walls isn't even meta-gaming, it is "exploiting".

 

People are trying to define "unrealistic" as meta-gaming, which isn't the case. If there was an intentional mechanic in the game that let you fly in the air and auto-shoot other players, it would be entirely unrealistic, but not meta-gaming. If there were a USB controller that allowed you to do that, which the game never intended, that is meta-gaming.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Its just that if you read the earlier posts one of the devs emphatically stated that nothing will be done about third party comms in dayz. So I do find a purely theoretical discussion about the legalities of a program that closes third party comms programmes to now be irrelevant as this is all about Metagaming in Dayz.

You might find it irrelevant, but those theoretical discussions are still on topic when it comes to discussing metagaming and third-party communications. Frankly I will respond to every single dumb argument I can with regards to blocking them, just in case any of the devs do think "hmm, that's not a bad idea".

I remember Punk Busters used to kick people running Nvidia GPU monitoring software in certain games because it would draw your FPS on the screen and applications that are detected drawing things on your screen could be hacks. Same concept.

I think that's more to do with PunkBuster being a piece of crap more than anything. Edited April 16, 2014 by DarkwaveDomina

[kichilron 8550]

Are you retarded or something?

 

 

You don't want to use that word around here. If you do, it might get you a warning pretty quickly.

 

 

As for the rest of this thread:

 

blocking third party voiceprograms isn't going to happen, please don't get in massive arguments over it derailing the entire thread and ignoring all other points made.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

blocking third party voiceprograms isn't going to happen, please don't get in massive arguments over it derailing the entire thread and ignoring all other points made.

Can I quote this when people keep suggesting ways you guys should make the game control my PC, or should I just hit the report button?

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Third person is not meta-gaming. Meta-gaming is using knowledge gained external to the game or tools external to the game to provide an advantage in the game. Third Person does not fit this definition. It is a mechanic in the game. Pushing your camera through walls isn't even meta-gaming, it is "exploiting".

 

People are trying to define "unrealistic" as meta-gaming, which isn't the case. If there was an intentional mechanic in the game that let you fly in the air and auto-shoot other players, it would be entirely unrealistic, but not meta-gaming. If there were a USB controller that allowed you to do that, which the game never intended, that is meta-gaming.

Metagaming is the use of knowledge that would be unavailable to the character you are playing as.

 

Your character can't see around a corner, you can due to the third person camera angle you can. You're make your choice on what to do based off information which would not be available to your character: This is metagaming, pure and simple.

 

Regardless of if you understand that or not, your failure to comprehend it does not change the fact that 3pp fits under the umbrella of Metagaming. :rolleyes:

Edited April 16, 2014 by TheScruffyBandit

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

I remember Punk Busters used to kick people running Nvidia GPU monitoring software in certain games because it would draw your FPS on the screen and applications that are detected drawing things on your screen could be hacks. Same concept.

 

they didn't get banned for drawing FPS on your screen they got banned for using low level DLL hooks.

[Valadain 270]

Metagaming is the use of knowledge that would be unavailable to the character you are playing as.

 

Your character can't see around a corner, you can due to the third person camera angle you can. You're make your choice on what to do based off information which would not be available to your character: This is metagaming, pure and simple.

 

Regardless of if you understand that or not, your failure to comprehend it does not change the fact that 3pp fits under the umbrella of Metagaming. :rolleyes:

 

Nope, that's something else entirely, not meta-gaming. It could be called "out of character".

[chrismgtis (DayZ) 35]

Lot of people don't seem to know the definition of metagaming.

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Nope, that's something else entirely, not meta-gaming. It could be called "out of character".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming_%28role-playing_games%29

 

You're wrong. Please, in the future take the time to learn what you're taking about before posting on a subject.

 

Acting from out of character information sources is the very definition of Metagaming.

Edited April 16, 2014 by TheScruffyBandit

[Valadain 270]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming_%28role-playing_games%29

 

You're wrong. Please, in the future take the time to learn what you're taking about before posting on a subject.

 

Well, this isn't a role-playing-game, but assuming it were, it still isn't meta-gaming.

 

If it were a fantasy game, and I had a spell called "read mind" and I used it to find out info then use that info, it wouldn't be meta-gaming.

 

This game intentionally implements a third person view that allows visibility over objects, so the use of this mechanic (much like the above spell) is gaming, not meta-gaming.

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Well, this isn't a role-playing-game, but assuming it were, it still isn't meta-gaming.

 

If it were a fantasy game, and I had a spell called "read mind" and I used it to find out info then use that info, it wouldn't be meta-gaming.

 

This game intentionally implements a third person view that allows visibility over objects, so the use of this mechanic (much like the above spell) is gaming, not meta-gaming.

Okay, I get it now. You don't know what you're talking about.  :rolleyes: Silly me, I've wasted my time.

[Daemonkid 493]

WTF is this thread even about anymore? 

Please discuss cheese, and its possible addition to DayZ.

Industrial block of cheese. The ones that are huge. I also want to use it as a weapon.

GET ON IT BI

[Valadain 270]

Okay, I get it now. You don't know what you're talking about.  :rolleyes: Silly me, I've wasted my time.

 

No, you are applying a particular way that you want to play a sandbox game, then calling anything outside of that "meta gaming" which is false.

 

Under your rules there, you need to stop using the inventory screen as nobody can just immediately know where everything is in their backpack and pockets instantaneously nor can they magically swap two things at the bottom of their backpack without messing up the rest of the contents.

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

No, you are applying a particular way that you want to play a sandbox game, then calling anything outside of that "meta gaming" which is false.

 

Under your rules there, you need to stop using the inventory screen as nobody can just immediately know where everything is in their backpack and pockets instantaneously nor can they magically swap two things at the bottom of their backpack without messing up the rest of the contents.

It's nothing to do with how I choose to play the game. If I like 3pp or not does not change it fitting the definition of metagaming. Hell you even confirmed it yourself when you said 3pp should be considered "out of character" which *is* what metagaming is, or do you think you're playing someone standing 5 feet behind the character you see on your screen? Are you role playing as a ghost haunting the poor bastard?

 

:lol:

[WargameKlok 166]

Why have the mods not locked this delusional rant topic?

[p4triot 207]

This is where we disagree, because I don't consider cheat software legitimate and I feel it's within the remit of a developer (be it Bohemia, or Battleye) to prevent clearly malicious software from interfering with their own software. That's what makes it malicious, its only purpose is to intefere with games. To compare TeamSpeak or Skype to cheat software is a complete nonsense and this is why we'll not agree on this issue.

 

What you do consider legitimate doesn't matter. It's legitimate because its legal to have a cheat in your computer, same as having skype. No difference between one or another from a legal perspective.

 

So, if then its legal to make programs refusing to start when you have another program running on background, it is also legal whether it is aimbot3000 v2.0 or skype, ts or fucking Mario Kart. Legally, it is all the same. Remember, this discussion begun when someone said BiS would get sued on courts if they did that. Well, what Im defending, is they would not (or at least they wouldn't lose).

 

2+2=4

 

Rest are just opinions without any legal value.

 

[joe_mcentire 2074]

blocking third party voiceprograms isn't going to happen, please don't get in massive arguments over it derailing the entire thread and ignoring all other points made.

as mentioned before.

 

the premiss of this thread should be:

 

How can we encourage and set incentives to avoid metagaming and use ingame features? that's the poodle's core ;), the litmus test!

Why would i WANT to use an ingame device/object. of course metagaming, especially in MMO's will ALWAYS have their place.

so maybe let's try to focus on that a bit.

Edited April 16, 2014 by joe_mcentire

[p4triot 207]

as mentioned before.

 

the premiss of this thread should be:

 

How can we encourage and set incentives to avoid metagaming and use ingame features? that's the poodle's core ;), the litmus test!

Why would i WANT to use an ingame device/object. of course metagaming, especially in MMO's will ALWAYS have their place.

so maybe let's try to focus on that a bit.

 

One thing that worked fine for my group was that with ingame communications I hear my friends from the direction they are and also volume depends on distance, thus adding additional information when Im trying to locate them (really, at pitch black darkness we can lose each other track even at less than 10 meters away xD).

 

However, we still use TS. This is solely for special situations.

 

How can't you avoid people metagaming using information their character shouldn't know (like where's a body full of stuff - aka your old char-)? you can't.

[AzrailCross 48]

Are you retarded or something?

 

Are you really sugesting that they start blocking people from playing who have skype, mumble, or TS on the background?

 

They aren't even allowed to scan my computer for that, it would be way to invasive and cause a huge privacy uproar in the community.

 

I can already think of the headlines now

 

You REALLY should read a whole post before you bother quoting it and making some big uproar.

 

Yes. They CAN. No. They won't. It's not illegal, and I'd thumb up the effort for trying! ... and promptly went on to say better solutions - making the in game options more appealing than trying to ban Third Party Software while playing DayZ and that my girlfriend is in the same room, it's not like they can stop me from looking at her screen, or using our smartphones to skype friends.

 

My god man, RELAX. XD Even if they DID decide to scan and disable joining servers while third party VOIP were open - you could get around it easily enough; it'd send a message they don't want you using them, but it wouldn't stop a thing, nor would it be illegal, and yes, it'd be a silly cry-baby uproar about privacy even though that has nothing to do with it - since just scanning for software and preventing access to a program due to third party software (done by pretty much any MP game with a anti-hack software ever, like it or not. Your running programs have been scanned and in some cases even installed programs that aren't running, but in 99.9% of cases are not reported back to the creators unless it's hacking software tampering with the game itself, by almost every game you've played online. Some only protect the program from tampering, but most do a literal search of the system for known programs they don't want running. Look up a history on it, some programs in the past have refused to work just because X program was installed on the system, didn't matter if it was running or not.) does not equal a breach of privacy: unlike reporting what software is in use/installed by exactly who, what's been typed or said while the software is active, collecting truly private personal information, having someone personally view that information, storing said information, selling the information, or anything else that would be a true breach of privacy.

 

Talk about extremes. They already said numerous times over many other threads long before this one it wasn't an option, so calm down regardless; it was a matter of pointing out what they actually can do and pointing out it's flaws (to which they have long said, even long before THIS thread - they'd never do anyway.) and then providing better options that have a far more likely chance of succeeding by making people WANT to use the ingame VOIP.

 

In the end, really, read a damn post and notice the line of thinking before you go on a rampage next time, just makes you look foolish to anyone who bothered actually taking the time to understand the full intent of the post. Also, stop with the assumptions, I wasn't the first to bring it up, I didn't even start the idea. 

 

Edit:

Just to back up with literal fact.. here's EA history for you! I could cite countless other instances across other company's, but google is your friend if you don't keep up with news.

 

What’s more is that according to PC Games and another nifty user investigation (with the original thread from the forum having been removed by moderators, of course), the analysis found that Origin will scan your entire PC and collect certain kinds of data to send data back and forth to EA to check whether serial numbers and product keys match up, whether said keys are up-to-date or whether or not they are legit, as well as activity performed with other software -- apparently for marketing purposes. 

 

Yeah, your not being scanned.. no.. never, no company would ever do such.. that's silly. So silly.. 

 

Want to see just how much your being watched? Learn to monitor exactly where all your bandwidth is going and what it contains with various tools on the net, I won't help you there, but simple google searches and some research and you'll learn your not so concealed in your net activities, what your running in the background or what is installed on your system, even if most of what goes out isn't concerned with whom you are exactly.

 

Also on the topic of metagaming.. 

Yes, it is acting on information your character would not possess.

 

Be that calling your friend up and asking where the sniper is out of the game since you couldn't do it with what you had -in the game-

Using Third Person Perspective to see around the corner, is also a form of metagaming. In a roleplay environment, it'd be the use of spectating around a map to find out Person A is assaulting Person B while Person C is stealing from person Z and you then go around claiming to know about the assault, report the theft your character never witnessed, and laugh about person Z's inability to protect his or her valuables. None of which you should know about, or react to since you weren't there to see it. To be more close the same situation, it'd be like hiding behind a wall never peering around the corner and claiming you saw the face of the person who murdered person X and go on to describe it in detail; even though you obviously - did not see the murderer, or in a more DayZ case.. your behind a wall or on a roof and can't see anyone, don't hear anyone, and have every intention of going inside and looting the building your at: but you switch to 3PP and notice there is someone running around outside; so rather than go further into the buliding your in to loot, you go outside to hunt the person down. Something you wouldn't have done if the game hadn't allowed you to see more than you normally should have been able to. (All without risking your own neck where you normally should have had to - to gather the information your using. So the sniper down the road that'd normally would have had a shot on you.. doesn't and won't because of said metagame.)

 

But the term metagaming does not have to just apply to roleplaying games (to which DayZ sits on a line of being able to be one, somewhat encouraged to be one, without having to be one), and so in the end; the definitive answer is yes - third person perspective in it's current implementation is a form of metagaming, as is external VOIP, and gamma/brightness altering to see more than is humanly possible.

 

My opinions on those three topics have been said enough, so I won't repeat them; but regardless the prior argument it's not metagaming is incorrect, it is. Figuring out what to do about it, if anything, is a whole other matter.

Edited April 16, 2014 by AzrailCross

[sai (DayZ) 137]

I made a topic ages ago about forcing voice chat. Got a lot of hate, not much point continuing it. 

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157878-force-mic-chat-skype-etc-thru-dayz/

 

 

 

 

As for night time, the gamma and brightness setting should be taken out for a start. There is no reason to have them, seeing as you have them on your tv. And idk, but i bet what you can see with just your tv turned up is a lot less. have to do a comparison.