Ballistics damage?

[hiniberus 122]

Hey there guys!

 

Just a quick question, I'm trying to understand the way how DayZ's current gun damage works and how it'll (hopefully) be improved in the future. Now mind you, I'm a novice when it comes to guns, bullets and calibres but I've read up enough to understand a little bit to not feel like a total moron on this topic. 

 

Something I find very underwhelming are the pistols, primarily. Each and every time I've tried to use them the results were hardly as expected. I remember plugging someone with four shots of an FNX right in the back, the guy had a backpack, assault vest and shirt. Though the only thing that could've protected him would be the backpack's contents at best (I hid under the stairs of a com's tower a month ago or so after hearing the guy shoot someone just above me) and he just turns around and kills me. 

 

Primarily, I'm thinking that had it been anywhere as real as it should be, at least two of the shots would've done some serious damage (saw him bleeding /heard him shouting in pain character wise) but wouldn't that have killed him? 

 

Even more recently, I was in the small military base (forgot the name of the town it's connected to, but it's at the far-west side of the map near green mountain) and someone plugged me with 4 magnum shots (about 2 weeks ago) but I just bandaged myself up and tossed aside a ruined assault vest. I'm pretty sure that would murder just about anyone, the distance was about 30~ish meters I'd guess. 

 

While the rifles got a fair bit of attention in topics, people seem to brush off the accuracy/damage issues of the pistols. Personally, I'd love to just do away with rifles and keep a pistol only on me to give me more of that 'true survivor' feel or at most, have a Blaze Double rifle. Though I feel with the strength and accuracy issues with the pistols at the moment, I find it a bit saddening. 

 

What are your thoughts, forum?

[preacherlr 614]

The pistols are quiet under powered at the moment, I can deal with the medium - Low damage, But the accuracy is what drive me crazy. They are at least a little better than they were in the mod though, The spread is unrealistic as shit... The shotgun also need a little buff, at 25 m or so the spread is atrocious. 

[Greenpants 10]

Well if you're talking realism then a .45 round through a backpack, into a ballistic vest might actually do little to no permanent damage. Maybe he got text like "my back really hurts" afterwards. 

 

The magnum one does seem more odd though.  Are you sure you got hit all 4 times?

 

Either way, since it's a video game, 4 hits of anything should be serious trouble at the least IMO. Even the .22!

[hiniberus 122]

Yeah and I agree with you entirely. I've since tried the FNX and magnum a few times only to see how terribly inaccurate they are (unrealistically so) at even just 25~50m which is just about the 'basic range' of any pistol. Literally I think it's just some numerical tweaks to the accuracy/spread ratings, why are they just so bad atm?

 

Also considering how the Magnum only has 6 bullets, it really should be 2 hit kill at most and still be accurate to about 100m (saw a video of a colt python being shot of the same calibre and hitting the target clearly at 150~ish meters range) yet these are such simple tweaks that it kind of gets to me that about 5~ish minutes of work isn't being done or at least, not announced to even be considered! I don't want this to be a negative/rant topic by any means, I just thought that either the pistols really are weak as shown (which I highly doubt) or that their implementation needs work (early access alpha, thus far more understandable) so why don't they just fix it? Considering the amount of topics requesting the guns to be fixed, shouldn't they be somewhere up on the priority list before coding/implementing other weapons?

[hiniberus 122]

Well if you're talking realism then a .45 round through a backpack, into a ballistic vest might actually do little to no permanent damage. Maybe he got text like "my back really hurts" afterwards. 

 

The magnum one does seem more odd though.  Are you sure you got hit all 4 times?

 

Either way, since it's a video game, 4 hits of anything should be serious trouble at the least IMO. Even the .22!

 

 

It wasn't a ballistic vest, it was an assault vest. The ballistic vest is a different item in the game. The assault vest just seems to be cloth + pockets without any actual protection behind it (unlike the press-vest that is supposed to grant moderate protection).

 

I'd understand if the pack had taken most of the damage but the shock/impact/energy of the bullet would pass through it I'd think and considering organ placement and the interruption to water/blood within the body it'd cause shock/unconsciousness. 

 

I'm pretty sure about the magnum one, though I think it was during the time when the damage was really messed up. When the clothes were almost like armour on their own, so that could be the reason?

[SGT. Kalme 106]

My guess would be that it is somehow connected to the damage done to zombies - maybe the damage altering is done to the weapons themselves, not players and zombies separately (As I understand it, goal is to make zombies harder to kill, that just may be that the players become harder to kill as well)..

 

I don't know thou, just a thought.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Ballistics and terminal ballistics are quite a science since if you change one factor by a tiny fraction you get a totally different result IRL. And you can't count in those factors in a video game since you don't usually give items properties like the basic .22LR and 5.56x45mm vs. wooden fence => 5.56x45 penetrates. It barely possible to calculate the resistance of the contents of a backpack since it always varies and you also have to take the current velocity of the bullet into account. Just as an example saying 7.62x39 does the same amount of damage at 300m as a .357 at 25m isn't enough. While IRL values are all over the place with the same conditions you can only have fixed values you can work with in a game. I doubt someone wants to add a formula to the game that calculates damage every time something is hit...could take a while.

[Greenpants 10]

The UK assault vest may have ballistic protection properties and may protect the wearer from projectiles up to 7.62mm in diameter.

That's what the standalone wikia says. Also says unconfirmed. *shrug*

I'm surprised nobody has done in game damage testing yet. Probably because of the horrid spawn distances you can get. Maybe once vehicles are introduced...

Edited April 11, 2014 by Greenpants

[gibonez 3633]

 

Even though the bullet is stopped by a vest, it still causes nasty internal injuries.

 

Hope the game simulates that with the new cool hurt animations in exp.

 

I mean just look at Al wizzle here . He gets shot with a .25 acp round a tiny baby round and look at the damage it left to his skin.

 

 

Anything bigger would have surely atleast taken his air out if not caused internal bleeding.

[enforcer1975 1111]

FPS Russia shot 5 buckshot into an older police vest at 20? yards. The vest was inside the chest of the dummy showing how much force was behind it. Even one shot could have killed the wearer just by the force of the impact, imagine you have 9*.30 pellets traveling at high speed towards you...quite a burst. 

[gibonez 3633]

FPS Russia shot 5 buckshot into an older police vest at 20? yards. The vest was inside the chest of the dummy showing how much force was behind it. Even one shot could have killed the wearer just by the force of the impact, imagine you have 9*.30 pellets traveling at high speed towards you...quite a burst. 

 

We have to make a distinction however between a cermaic plate carrier and soft body armor.

 

A plate carrier would have shrugged off that buckshot and rifle rounds without any injuries to the user, because the ceramic plate or steel plate inside takes the full force of the shot.

 

Soft body armor however stops penetration but at the same time spreads the kinetic energy over the surface area of the vest so those vest do cause nasty injuries to people.

[SGT. Kalme 106]

We have to make a distinction however between a cermaic plate carrier and soft body armor.

 

A plate carrier would have shrugged off that buckshot and rifle rounds without any injuries to the user, because the ceramic plate or steel plate inside takes the full force of the shot.

 

Soft body armor however stops penetration but at the same time spreads the kinetic energy over the surface area of the vest so those vest do cause nasty injuries to people.

 

Ceramic/steel plate has the same effect, just on a lot smaller scale.

[enforcer1975 1111]

We have to make a distinction however between a cermaic plate carrier and soft body armor.

 

A plate carrier would have shrugged off that buckshot and rifle rounds without any injuries to the user, because the ceramic plate or steel plate inside takes the full force of the shot.

 

Soft body armor however stops penetration but at the same time spreads the kinetic energy over the surface area of the vest so those vest do cause nasty injuries to people.

 

Where did that soldier go who was shot in the chest with a SVD...it left him with one or more broken ribs, lacerations and the force of the impact threw him to the ground although the plate saved his life.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Enforcer

[chekovp 89]

Ceramic plates are useless after a few impacts because they break from the shots, steal plate on the other hand will not, but these plates are not in the game. Closest thing to plates in game right now are books.

Kevlar armor will stop 9mm rounds at best while still causing serious injury, but it won't stop any rifle round, even a .22 at close to medium range.

Adding a resistance value to all items doesn't seem like it would be that hard and neither does it affecting ballistics at any velocity. Current velocity - resistance = damage. I could be wrong though.

[Greenpants 10]

even a .22 at close to medium range.

 

You sure about that?

 

[enforcer1975 1111]

You sure about that?

 

Here's something nice, too bad he didn't try a .22 LR round. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

It also depends on the type of vest used. i'm pretty sure a good jacketed .22LR that travels over 1400ft/s will penetrate a lvl 1 vest at "combat ranges" ( maybe up to 50m but not over 100m ) and multiple shots will leave a couple of "dents" in the wearer. Kevlar or body armor in general isn't a magical armor that nullifies the effects of a bullet impact.

[TheWanderingMan 170]

Pistols are inaccurate IRL, yet so many people on here expect headshots at 100m+. Headshots on a static target on the range may be possible if you're a good shot but translate that into the dayz environment and it's not going to happen like people think it would.

 

Plates may stop the bullet but you'll still be pretty fucked up, most plates only take a few rounds to shatter and the internal damage/broken ribs could easily kill you anyway. Soft body armour may stop shrapnel but not bullets.

 

I still have my CBA and that won't stop a sharp blade.

 

The shotguns we used were 12 gauge and we were told that each pellet hits with the force of a 9mm round. Take five of them to a ceramic plate and I'm pretty sure it would shatter and most likely kill you in the process.

[Greenpants 10]

Here's something nice, too bad he didn't try a .22 LR round. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

It also depends on the type of vest used. i'm pretty sure a good jacketed .22LR that travels over 1400ft/s will penetrate a lvl 1 vest at "combat ranges" ( maybe up to 50m but not over 100m ) and multiple shots will leave a couple of "dents" in the wearer. Kevlar or body armor in general isn't a magical armor that nullifies the effects of a bullet impact.

Good reading. But I still don't think .22 will do anything more than 9mm. Google search shows results in both directions. *reshrug*

[gibonez 3633]

Pistols are inaccurate IRL, yet so many people on here expect headshots at 100m+. Headshots

 

 

 

Complete and totally incorrect ?

 

Due to the lack of support and rigidity shooting a pistol is quite difficuilt but the mechanical accuracy of a pistol is no different from a rifle.

 

In fact most new studies suggest a shorter more rigid barrel is actually far more accurate than a longer barrel because the barrel does not whip or flex during the process of shooting.

 

 

So as you can see pistols are quite accurate so please stop spouting nonsense.

 

The only reason pistols are perceived as being inaccurate is the shooter having to deal with more factors when shooting a pistol + the low ballistic coefficient and low muzzle velocity of pistol ammunition.

So to make it simple no pistols are no inherently inaccurate.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Those are exceptions, you must count the average majority who are just able to aim and pull the trigger. The example above isn't good imo since Jerry Miculek and his colleagues are professional shooters with specialized guns who train 24/7.

You can't call something accurate if you can't repeat it as often as you want to. Hitting 5 shots out of 10 isn't accurate but it shows the weapon system is capable of delivering the power downrange, hitting is another matter and has a lot of factors like f.e. wind, the condition and quality of the weapon used and the skill of the shooter to name a few.

In the end the capabilities of a cartridge are just numbers and are worth nothing without a good shooter behind the gun.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Enforcer

[eleventhavenue 204]

I don't get how the skill of the weapon user, in ANY way possibly can affect the accuracy of the gun itself.

´´But it's there to account for...´´ NO

 

Pistol A is X accurate. It might be wielded by a professional shot, a random person or a halfwitted giraffe, and the gun itself will still be exactly as accurate.

[gibonez 3633]

I don't get how the skill of the weapon user, in ANY way possibly can affect the accuracy of the gun itself.

´´But it's there to account for...´´ NO

 

Pistol A is X accurate. It might be wielded by a professional shot, a random person or a halfwitted giraffe, and the gun itself will still be exactly as accurate.

 

Pretty much.

 

I understand their concerns about the player not being a special forces soldier with 40 years of experience.

 

However the devs can simulate that with how the gun handles thus achieve the same result at the end.

 

You don't need to make the guns fire in a big magical cone or have attachments that decrease the size of the cone to achieve that.

 

- Weapon sway

- Weapon resting

- A stamina system or fatigue system

- Simulated trigger pull Ie. Some weapons with notoriously long trigger pulls have slight delays between mouse clicking and firing the gun.

 

All those can achieve the same result but at the same time the above features would not frustrate skilled players like RNG cone of fires do.