I HATE playing 3rd person servers.

[Dagwood 680]

I've broken this level playing field argument before, and I'll do it again. Listen closely.

You claim that players on 3rd person servers, while having access to a massively game altering mechanic, are all on the same playing field. I agree. This is true.

So you ask, "y'all have your own hive? Why not let us play our way and you can play your way?" A valid question.

The answer: because teenage boys make up the majority of the population that plays this game, and they will choose the route of least resistance. When learning to play dayz, doing so on 3rd person is easier. Therefore, more beginners play regular servers and ultimately more total players play regular.

The reason the "hardcore" players dislike this trend is because of supply and demand. Say what? Let me explain:

I want to host my own server but I don't want to play just by myself, so I need to implement features on my sever to attract other players. In the mod this lead to "pay to win" servers, 10000 vehicle servers, etc. would you put a lot of work into building and hosting a server that nobody played? Nope. Unsurprisingly there were hardly any fpv only servers.

I wanted to play fpv only servers, but I didn't want to play by myself. My demand for player interaction was higher than that for fpv only gameplay. As a result, I played on 3pp enabled servers.

It's like if you were playing cs or battlefield and half of the servers had no anti-hack of any kind, and linked sites that supplied free hacks. As a result, 90% of the player base uses these hacks and plays on these servers. "Hacks/mods are allowed on these servers, it's not cheating".

True, but the gameplay is mutated from the way it would be played without these hacks. And because 90% of the player base uses these servers, the majority of the developer and server hosting resources are expended on catering to these players' needs and desires.

In reality, battlefield and counter strike DO have hacking protection and the player base happily plays without them.

Separate but equal could only be equitable if both parties had access to the same resources. As I mentioned in an earlier post, segregation proved that this policy doesn't work when power (or in our case population) is unevenly distributed between the two groups.

Yes, we have our own hive and can play how we would like. However, in our opinion (which we have logically been able to defend), the community as a whole would be better off if new players were not confronted with this segregated cyberscape.

Think about it. How many times have you seen a thread titled "tried fpv, never going back!"? Probably a few.

"Tried 3pv for the first time today: screw fpv servers!"?

A baby born addicted to crack will cry for more crack. A baby who hasn't tried crack won't cry for it.

Do you need more analogies?

[Ineedscoffee 464]

I still support manning up, and have fun on both, which hardly anyone seems to be capable of

[makomachine 263]

I have no dog in this hunt - I personally like 2nd person servers. Finding them is tricky though.... :)

[finalstraw 193]

Look simple as it is and you missing the whole point. Stop comparing 3rd person with 1st person and stop comparing the realism between it. 3RD person is not realistic and not been placed for realism already in the first place, so pointless to argue over it. No brainer, everyone already know it.

 

You are on a server 3PP vs 3PP (Not 3PP vs 1PP) so everyone out there know that someone can see around corners or has wider field of view, since they already aware of its flaws and they adapt their behaviour to it.

I could understand if 3PP hive and 1PP hive was sharing the same hive but it's not.   People who play Regular, they are 100% aware of it and if they want to play it even regards of its flaws, it means they don't bother and adapt to it.

 

So knowledge of the angle  provides equal gameplay as you accepted to play by knowing the facts. It's not like someone using ESP and you don't have it.

 

Let me make it clear that realism only comes into the discussion because realism brings a natural balance to 1PP. Players truly are equal in player viewpoint/perspective terms.

 

The problem with 3PP is that is has very negative effects on the gameplay, which at the end up the day matters the most. 3PP changes the entirely dynamic of the gameplay and even player behaviour (more prone to camping for example). You can watch 10mins of any DayZ 3PP video footage and point of examples and situations that are artificially altered by the 3PP perspective. Players always exploit the camera subconsciously or not.

 

From a pure gameplay viewpoint, 3PP in it's current form gives players unnatural and artificial advantages in given situations over other players. Players in 3PP are not equal in viewpoint/perspective terms.

 

So basically if you want purely skilled based PvP then don't play normal mode.

Edited March 24, 2014 by -lOldBoyl-

[casper1 44]

@DagWood

 

The thing is, choosing 3RD person servers have multiple reasons and noone can actually accurately claim that it has one reason ,just because it has huge field of view/exploit angle. There are tons of customization for this game,from detailed hats to shoes. This game also has RP player base and 3PP player base along with it, which shouldn't be ignored.

 

Those people want to see their character while gaming and want to see the animation of a character all together which gives some sort of enjoyment for 3PP player base. It's like choosing Action RPG over First person RPG.

Prime example Old Elder Scroll series vs New Skyrim or Others. You just can't limit the playerbase by assuming " They play it because it's easy or has exploits".

 

It has exploits which needs a fix and in alpha prolly takes time. Hopefully they do fix it because it effects  3PP Gamers negatively than any other. If they won't fix it or re-adjust it ,then shame on them because it's broken as its current state.

 

Also, i don't think it makes it easier  playing on 3PP servers as it makes you get spotted pretty quick, vice versa. So in a server that provides same angles, there isn't any decrease in diffuculty vs other players. 

It's only easier vs zombies, i must admit.

Edited March 24, 2014 by =1PARA=Prime=C.O=

[Ineedscoffee 464]

Let me make it clear that realism only comes into the discussion because realism brings a natural balance to 1PP. Players truly are equal in player viewpoint/perspective terms.

The problem with 3PP is that is has very negative effects on the gameplay, which at the end up the day matters the most. 3PP changes the entirely dynamic of the gameplay and even player behaviour (more prone to camping for example). You can watch 10mins of any DayZ 3PP video footage and point of examples and situations that are artificially altered by the 3PP perspective. Players always exploit the camera subconsciously or not.

From a pure gameplay viewpoint, 3PP in it's current form gives players unnatural and artificial advantages in given situations over other players. Players in 3PP are not equal in viewpoint/perspective terms.

So basically if you want purely skilled based PvP then don't play normal mode.

Hardly even close to the proper truth. It's blatant, ignorant fanboyism like this that poisons communities. You are not better for playing on a first person. You may sharpen up to a certain standard, but that's where it stops. The same standard is met on third person as well. You adapt to the situation, and become equally as skilled, in your chosen environment.

I play both, one play style does not make me better then the other. I learn after each encounter, on each style. I take each lesson learned and use what I can, where I can. What's sad, is you actually believe that you are better then every single third person player. Your not, and not will you be.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Ineedscoffee

[Weedz 1105]

Hardly even close to the proper truth. It's blatant, ignorant fanboyism like this that poisons communities. You are not better for playing on a first person.you may sharpen up to a certain standard, but that's where it stops. The same standard is met on third person as well. You adapt to the situation, and become equally as skilled, in your chosen environment.

I play both, one play style does not make me better then the other. I learn after each encounter, on each style. What's sad, is you actually believe your better then every single third person player. Your not, and never will be.

^All of this^ The only difference I find between 1st and 3rd is you get scared by zombies and people coming around corners in 1st person. It's pretty much the same game as when I play 3rd I always go into sights to shoot people anyway unless I come around a corner and are touching them. But that said if you spend all your time corner camping on 3rd person servers you probably aren't going to be as good as someone who doesn't.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Weedz

[finalstraw 193]

Hardly even close to the proper truth. It's blatant, ignorant fanboyism like this that poisons communities. You are not better for playing on a first person.you may sharpen up to a certain standard, but that's where it stops. The same standard is met on third person as well. You adapt to the situation, and become equally as skilled, in your chosen environment.

I play both, one play style does not make me better then the other. I learn after each encounter, on each style. What's sad, is you actually believe your better then every single third person player. Your not, and never will be.

 

Hold your horses.

 

Skilled players play both modes, but the difference is that one mode is offering more information to the player than the other. So basically if you only want skill to factor in on the gameplay stick to HC.

[Sebidee 167]

dont play 3pp servers bro, done

It is so f'ing stupid to complain about third person view when there is a game mode with plenty of servers without it...

It just boggles my mind.

 

The reason is that all the friends I play with and 90% of the community play in 3pp. I don't want to be left out.

 

On the subject of cheat peeking. I hate doing it and I don't want to do it but in a regular server I feel like I HAVE to do it. If I don't then the enemy will and I'll be screwed.

[casper1 44]

The reason is that all the friends I play with and 90% of the community play in 3pp. I don't want to be left out.

 

On the subject of cheat peeking. I hate doing it and I don't want to do it but in a regular server I feel like I HAVE to do it. If I don't then the enemy will and I'll be screwed.

 

Yea thats the problem with the game itself and not the overall 3PP content. Game is in alpha , even in first person you can see through walls and ceiling. (Wonder why noone mentioned it)

Edited March 24, 2014 by =1PARA=Prime=C.O=

[Ineedscoffee 464]

Hold your horses.

 

Skilled players play both modes, but the difference is that one mode is offering more information to the player than the other. So basically if you only want skill to factor in on the gameplay stick to HC.

As I said before, one offers a lack of information, and the other offers to much information. Both require equal footing to overcome the situations. Sure, on third, you can see around walls and corners at your prey. He can do the same to see you. Information is vital, and on third, your not the only one with it.

This first person requiring more skill then third is no more then a biased opinion. You need to give every ounce of effort given to a first person, into a third. Only then will you come out with the understanding that both present their own challenges, advantages, and experiences. Both are equal. Neither is the better.

[finalstraw 193]

The reason is that all the friends I play with and 90% of the community play in 3pp. I don't want to be left out.

 

On the subject of cheat peeking. I hate doing it and I don't want to do it but in a regular server I feel like I HAVE to do it. If I don't then the enemy will and I'll be screwed.

 

This is the problem and why it's perfectly justified for HC players to criticise normal mode gameplay. When one mode is essentially easier to play and can be exploited as it is then of course the other mode is going to be far less popular and why HC servers are becoming less populated with time.

 

If you give players the easy option, they will take it. So the 'freedom' to choice between them eventually becomes void and we have no freedom to choice at all.

[Weedz 1105]

Epoch is to vanilla mod what 3rd person is to hardcore servers.

[casper1 44]

As I said before, one offers a lack of information, and the other offers to much information. Both require equal footing to overcome the situations. Sure, on third, you can see around walls and corners at your prey. He can do the same to see you. Information is vital, and on third, your not the only one with it.

This first person requiring more skill then third is no more then a biased opinion. You need to give every ounce of effort given to a first person, into a third. Only then will you come out with the understanding that both present their own challenges, advantages, and experiences. Both are equal. Neither is the better.

 

Yea here is why the word comes "Adaptation" . Hence why we get trainings for multiple environment as soldiers along with adaptation to new tech.

Edited March 24, 2014 by =1PARA=Prime=C.O=

[Rauchsauger 94]

The reason is that all the friends I play with and 90% of the community play in 3pp. I don't want to be left out.

 

On the subject of cheat peeking. I hate doing it and I don't want to do it but in a regular server I feel like I HAVE to do it. If I don't then the enemy will and I'll be screwed.

 

They should not make any changes without consulting the playerbase.

(And by playerbase I do not mean the forums)

 

I personally don't care how 3pp looks like in the end - but look at it this way:

 

If most people prefer 3pp and if the prefer being able to peek (which you can do in almost all 3pp games) then it means that most people (as you said it yourself) play on 3pp.

So by changing that without consulting what the players want they risk alienating players and furture players.

Since players are customers that would result in less money.

Less money means less development.

Less development means less features / bugfixes for 1pp and 3pp.

 

Last but not least there are the c***s that want to dictate how others should play the game. And I would vote against their ideas (even if I like them) just on the offchance that I could piss those condescending entitled brats off.

[Rauchsauger 94]

This is the problem and why it's perfectly justified for HC players to criticise normal mode gameplay. When one mode is essentially easier to play and can be exploited as it is then of course the other mode is going to be far less popular and why HC servers are becoming less populated with time.

 

If you give players the easy option, they will take it. So the 'freedom' to choice between them eventually becomes void and we have no freedom to choice at all.

 

Yawn just read what you wrote and realise the steaming pile of bullshit that is.

There are enough hardcore servers to play on and enough full ones also (maybe you are filtering the full ones? or you are just bullshitting)

If everyone would leave hardcore (which will not happen) you could also change or quit playing - that is how democracy works...

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rauchsauger

[finalstraw 193]

As I said before, one offers a lack of information, and the other offers to much information. Both require equal footing to overcome the situations. Sure, on third, you can see around walls and corners at your prey. He can do the same to see you. Information is vital, and on third, your not the only one with it.

This first person requiring more skill then third is no more then a biased opinion. You need to give every ounce of effort given to a first person, into a third. Only then will you come out with the understanding that both present their own challenges, advantages, and experiences. Both are equal. Neither is the better.

 

The problem is 3PP is that's it's actually does makes skill somewhat less important because of the unnaturally increased situational awareness. Skilled players in normal mode will still dominate other players, but the perspective is doing lots of the work for them and is a real deciding factor.

 

People's ego seems to get very bruised is you imply that normal mode doesn't require skill. Skill still does factor into outcomes, but trying to deny (which many do) they the 3PP perspective plays no part in it is delusional.

[Rauchsauger 94]

The problem is 3PP is that's it's actually does makes skill somewhat less important because of the unnaturally increased situational awareness. Skilled players in normal mode will still dominate other players, but the perspective is doing lots of the work for them and is a real deciding factor.

 

People's ego seems to get very bruised is you imply that normal mode doesn't require skill. Skill still does factor into outcomes, but trying to deny (which many do) they the 3PP perspective plays no part in it is delusional.

 

Since 1pp and 3pp are selfcontained your argument about "skill" (ahahahaha) is not relevant.

(people want to play easy? good for them. people want to play hard? have at it)

As long as the difficulty in context is the same for everyone it is just a matter of choice.

 

(but we all admire your mighty epeen :rolleyes:  such awe!)

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rauchsauger

[Dagwood 680]

I've broken this level playing field argument before, and I'll do it again. Listen closely.

You claim that players on 3rd person servers, while having access to a massively game altering mechanic, are all on the same playing field. I agree. This is true.

So you ask, "y'all have your own hive? Why not let us play our way and you can play your way?" A valid question.

The answer: because teenage boys make up the majority of the population that plays this game, and they will choose the route of least resistance. When learning to play dayz, doing so on 3rd person is easier. Therefore, more beginners play regular servers and ultimately more total players play regular.

The reason the "hardcore" players dislike this trend is because of supply and demand. Say what? Let me explain:

I want to host my own server but I don't want to play just by myself, so I need to implement features on my sever to attract other players. In the mod this lead to "pay to win" servers, 10000 vehicle servers, etc. would you put a lot of work into building and hosting a server that nobody played? Nope. Unsurprisingly there were hardly any fpv only servers.

I wanted to play fpv only servers, but I didn't want to play by myself. My demand for player interaction was higher than that for fpv only gameplay. As a result, I played on 3pp enabled servers.

It's like if you were playing cs or battlefield and half of the servers had no anti-hack of any kind, and linked sites that supplied free hacks. As a result, 90% of the player base uses these hacks and plays on these servers. "Hacks/mods are allowed on these servers, it's not cheating".

True, but the gameplay is mutated from the way it would be played without these hacks. And because 90% of the player base uses these servers, the majority of the developer and server hosting resources are expended on catering to these players' needs and desires.

In reality, battlefield and counter strike DO have hacking protection and the player base happily plays without them.

Separate but equal could only be equitable if both parties had access to the same resources. As I mentioned in an earlier post, segregation proved that this policy doesn't work when power (or in our case population) is unevenly distributed between the two groups.

Yes, we have our own hive and can play how we would like. However, in our opinion (which we have logically been able to defend), the community as a whole would be better off if new players were not confronted with this segregated cyberscape.

Think about it. How many times have you seen a thread titled "tried fpv, never going back!"? Probably a few.

"Tried 3pv for the first time today: screw fpv servers!"?

A baby born addicted to crack will cry for more crack. A baby who hasn't tried crack won't cry for it.

Do you need more analogies?

Tell me how I'm wrong!!!

[Weedz 1105]

Since 1pp and 3pp are selfcontained your argument about "skill" (ahahahaha) ist invalid.

See we can all agree that oldboy doesn't know what he's talking about at least!

 

 

if you're playing against people on the same "difficulty level" as you than you're skill will not change one way or the other based on what perspective you're server is set to. You gain skill be getting beat by people who are better than you and learning from your mistakes.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Weedz

[sabaka (DayZ) 70]

Literally every single solitary argument I hear for third person servers (it's easier for me, it's user friendly, mass market appeal, less restrictive AND ESPECIALLY you have your own hive so go play on it and shut up) would also be 100% true and valid if there were a set of servers that removed perma-death. "You died, respawning with full gear in 10, 9, 8..."

The problem with that is that if servers like that were introduced more people would play them than would play regular, perma-death servers. It would be harder to find full servers the way you like, the devs would spend time and resources catering to that part of the community and fixing issues relating to their needs, AND YOUR GAME EXPERIENCE WOULD SUFFER FOR IT. Just because people have trouble with the harsh, cold reality of a perma-death game does not mean that they should be catered to. You have to decide what type of game this is. Is it a casual zombie shooter? If so then 3pp and respawning with gear all the way. Is it a hardcore survival simulator? 3pp makes no sense.

On that last issue, the crux of the discussion is the question "What is Dayz?" To me it is by definition a hardcore game, not in the sense of 1pp only, but in the sense of the meaning of the word hardcore. It's brutal, it's unforgiving, it's immersive, it's "realistic" (as realistic as surviving the zombie apocalypse while sitting on my butt staring at a monitor has ever been) and it should be played in first person. Every time I can't find a full server, every minute a dev spends fixing graphics or any other type of bug that only applies to 3pp my game experience suffers because someone else can't handle the way the game was meant to be played. Rocket himself repeatedly says that hardcore is better, and I'm sure if he had a time machine he would go back and never create 3pp in the first place.

In the meantime, however, you filthy casuals and your needs take away from the proper game experience (as according to Rocket) and no one has ever offered a coherent argument about why an immersive survival sim needs a magic floating camera in the first place. I get that many people like it, but many people would like spawning with guns. Many people would like perma-death to be removed. Many people would rather play legend of Zelda. All you 3pp people should be arguing just as hard for all of those things.

 

 

edit: tl;dr 3pp is one of many things that makes the game more approachable. The fact that it is vigorously defended, and other ideas WHICH WOULD HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME EFFECT such as no perma-death, spawn with guns, etc. are not argued for seems very arbitrary. Why draw completely random lines in the sand? Either go for making it as hardcore as possible or hey, lets go play planetside 2. 

Edited March 24, 2014 by sabaka

[finalstraw 193]

Yawn just read what you wrote and realise the steaming pile of bullshit that is.

There are enough hardcore servers to play on and enough full ones also (maybe you are filtering the full ones? or you are just bullshitting)

If everyone would leave hardcore (which will not happen) you could also change or quit playing - that is how democracy works...

 

It's not bullshit. Look at the lifespan of the DayZ mod is you want proof. For the first 3-5 months the majority of servers were 1PP only.

 

But as time progressed things just turned for the worse and more so when private hives appeared (to combat hacking). 1PP vanished and it became 3PP only. 24/7 daylight became the norm. Pay2win perks and custom loadouts (for easy deathmatching). Even crosshairs and nameplates on some servers. After a while you could count the no 3PP servers on one hand and it became unplayable.

 

All the community did was prove they can't control themselves and will take any advantage you give them. The whole game slowly devolved into a pointless and slow paced deathmatch. If the devs are not careful history will repeat itself.

[Jamz 253]

This argument is becoming too familiar now. Splitting the hives was the best way to address the communities concerns about the TPV exploit and now it's done, there is no problem. I always see heavily populated FPV servers around, and if peoples friends don't want to play that view then it's up to them to convince them to - likewise if the majority of the DayZ playerbase wants to play TPV then that is their right, removing the option is senseless when there are options to play either view.

Playing on both hives is the best way to enjoy this game as it can give two different experiences, so why not stop covering old ground as everyone just gets worked up?

[Wili 156]

I would like to play 3pp also, but the camera is so exploitable, I think the only think Warz did better than Dayz is making a much less exploitable 3pp camera.

It will become more exploitable I think, when using vehicles like in arma 3, camera will be floating 20 meters above the vehicle.

[Rauchsauger 94]

See we can all agree that oldboy doesn't know what he's talking about at least!

 

 

if you're playing against people on the same "difficulty level" as you than you're skill will not change one way or the other based on what perspective you're server is set to. You gain skill be getting beat by people who are better than you and learning from your mistakes.

 

I think that we could potentially agree on many things and maybe disagree on as many as well.

I still remain adamant that changing existing and accepted gameplay at such a basic level like point of view should be done only after consultation of the playerbase.

(Less basic things can always be changed)

The money from the players of regular also benefits hardcore!

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rauchsauger