The Official Unofficial Bandit Removal Petition

[The Killing Joke 43]

Rocket,

I wanted to let you know that I love your mod, and it has renewed my enjoyment of gaming. I haven't played much of anything in the past five years, and until now, I haven't found ANY GAME that has focused my attention, since my years of playing EvE Online, as much as DayZ.

That being said, I have found only one glaring issue with the gameplay itself, and that is the issue of HUMANITY. For me, who likes to become an entirely new character when I play this game, this is the only limiting factor I can see.

From the standpoint of immersion, you cannot effectively be a sinister, backstabbing bad guy, when you suddenly "change" into a completely different looking player. This severely limits the ability of a player to integrate themselves into a team, and then, do anything against those players. This is the epitome of sinister, and would happen if the zombie apocalypse was upon us.

In my opinion, you should have free will to choose what you look like, and have no limitation on how you are perceived in-game. The current bandit system is broken, in the fact that players are being unfairly judged for their actions. You may want to be a horrible villain one day, and be a fantastic good guy the next. This can't exist, when players are being shot on sight.

In EvE, I knew a guy who integrated himself into a corporation, rose through the ranks, and spent MONTHS with others. He spoke with them on chat, supported them in battle, and became one of the most trusted people in the corp. Then, one day, he stole EVERYTHING that the players had amassed over a two year stint in game. Players petitioned the GM's to return their stuff, and to ban the player. They DECLINED. They told them that this was the way the game was MEANT TO BE PLAYED, and that you can't just overtly trust everybody, all of the time.

I think your game could be just as innovative, just as immersive, and as enjoyable, if we did away with the bandit system altogether. In my opinion, it's unfair to a certain play style, it's limiting in the way players are denied support, and it should go.

Thank you for reading.

(To all, I invite any and all supporters and detractors from this conversation to join me in making our views known. I would have put this into the PvP thread, but it's so it's own beast now, that it deserves more visibility.)

TKJ

[SensenmanN (DayZ) 5]

I like the idea of being branded a bandit / murderer for life, but I think it should reset on death, like everything else.

Say I want to do a playthrough as a complete asshole, and just kill everyone. I can do that, and then next time I come alive, I can go through as a saint, being helpful and nice. I know there are ways to restore humanity, but once your branded as a bandit, it's impossible to find anyone who won't kill you on sight. If you are lucky enough to play with a friend, you can have him do it, but most of us don't always have friends online.

The problem with the branded for life system is that you can't decide to start playing nice, because you're still branded evil from your last time playing.

It would also be nice if the game recognized a self defense kill, vs. a murder. If the game was able to look at both players, and see who shot first, and who killed who, it could judge the situation better. As in, if you get shot first, but kill the guy, it should be self defense, not murder.

[oktyabr 53]

I like the idea of being branded a bandit / murderer for life' date=' but I think it should reset on death, like everything else.

[/quote']

You know that's probably the most reasonable solution I've heard yet. +1

I was also considering what adjusting the humanity system some more might do to the game. Have humanity improve over time but on a curve and perhaps not even start to improve until one good deed is done. Start off very slow and accelerate the rate of improvement gradually so that if the player hasn't killed anyone in an hour or two they loose the skin. This would keep the routine killers in the skin, for the most part, and let the "self defense" guys walk away clean if they prove themselves.

Regardless, TKJ, you should know better. This isn't the section for this kind of thing. I'm moving it to General but I won't shovel it on top of the PVP heap as long as this thread stays clean and constructive. If you want it moved to the Bandit Campfire section or something I can do that too... but unless you have a concrete, *unique* suggestion (and a title that reflects it), this one can't stay here. Sorry.

[Swineflew 480]

I personally enjoy the fact that your actions have consequences and stick with you. I feel like the current system needs tweaks, but the community doesn't really like my ideas, so I'll keep them to myself to prevent the "lol codboy" crowd from ruining the thread.

Eve is a bad example because corp history, sec-status, your name are all things that you keep with you for the life of your character. If you become a corp thief, you're labeled one for the rest of that characters life, and if you kill people there is a harsher penalty than just changing your skin, and you have to do a huge grind to get back into good graces.

I am torn because of the persistent life, and when you die you lose everything theme. So I guess I'm on the fence about this issue tbh.

[SensenmanN (DayZ) 5]

I like that taking a life has consequences, I just think those consequences should be linked to your life (the life that dies when you die and lose all your loot)

I think I feel that way because I play differently every time. Sometimes if I'm just playing to have fun right now, I player kill, but other times when I'm playing the long game, or with friends, I like to be Mr. Humanity, helping people and playing safe.

I just don't think people are always player killing assholes, or always saints who help others. People are complex, but the penalty for player killing makes it hard to be complex.

[KevinsLunchbox 7]

I'm against removing bandits, they're a part of the game, part of the immersion and part of the realism. Learn to outplay them.

[soLch 1]

I completely agree. It takes away from the game in a sense.

Doing away with the bandit system would be a good thing in my opinion.

I can't simply be trusted if I want to play a 'nice' guy today, due to the fact that I look like a bandit. I could raise my humanity but it takes a while =[

In a post apocalyptic world, you really wouldn't be able to trust anyone, nor would anyone be wearing a sign that says 'Hi, I will kill you if you let me in and take your stuff'

It really would add to the immersion if you weren't branded for life as a bandit for killing someone, even if that kill was in self defense.

Do away with the bandit system I say!

[hhslf 0]

I think that people should be given a number of different skin choices based on their humanity levels, and that when you mouse over another player it shouldn't identify them as a bandit.

[Alex (DayZ) 8]

I'm against removing bandits' date=' they're a part of the game, part of the immersion and part of the realism. Learn to outplay them.

[/quote']

Hes talking about removing bandit skins not bandits. I'm in full support for removing bandit skins and adding new skin choices based on humanity levels.

[SensenmanN (DayZ) 5]

I'm against removing bandits' date=' they're a part of the game, part of the immersion and part of the realism. Learn to outplay them.

[/quote']

I don't think it should be removed either. I just think it should be wiped clean with death, like everything else.

[Sonicle 2]

There is a huge flaw with your reasoning, what skin a player has is irrelevant of his play style.

Simply put. X does not imply Y.

[mkrrr 3]

i don't like the idea of "bandit skins" at all

it's not realistic

it's TOTALLY unrealistic that when u see a guy u instansly know who he is - a good guy or a murderer

i think we must decide whether to trust that guy or not. and who he is. and know people just look at skin and instantly shoot a guy if he is a bandit or maybe leave him alive if he is not

it's not interesting i think. that game would be much better without all that

[xytaglyph 7]

I agree with op. I think that everyone should start out and choose their character skin and it should chajge regardless of their humanity. I think that if your humanity stat would stay hidden and not change your appearance it would make the game more realistic. However it should stay that you are a bandit if you kill people just have it hidden to others so if you are killed by another player and you do indeed have negative humanity it would count as a bandit kill rather than a murder.

[Katana67 2907]

Bandits should totally be left in. They should be tweaked maybe a bit, but certainly not removed. They're a really fun and realistic aspect of this game, and while I don't actively try to be one... it is fun to me to constantly trying to outsmart both bandits and zombies.

Perhaps, like others have said, Humanity should reset upon death. That seems reasonable to me.

However, if there is a "morality" system... I think there needs to be a pro/con dynamic to being a bandit or survivor. On one hand, there should be some actual downside to lighting up every innocent person you see (Like a server-wide "civilization" rating that would determine good loot spawns and how serious the zombie problem is). But on the other, there should be a tangible benefit for being a bandit. Mostly, I think this is already included in the nature of banditry... because you killed that player, you can now loot their stuff.

What I -do- see as a problem, is the static nature of banditry. Most bandits that I've seen are to be found around military installations and large cities. This is the nature of a video game with multiple lives, one can just find where the good loot spawns... and camp it until survivors come. I think, like the Deer Stands, loot needs to be spread out more in order to relieve the complete and almost exclusive reliance on airfields and military installations to get good loot.

Conversely, I think things such as light and noise discipline should be emphasized for the survivor. Not only should you attract the attention of zombies, but you should be more apt to draw attention from bandits if you're broadcasting your position. Example, I recently spawned on the coast at night and ran straight up to Stary Sobor on foot... in a straight line... with a flare and chemlights active on my person. I wasn't seen (I believe) or shot at during this entire time. This is why I think the maximum draw distance needs to be extended, as light doesn't carry as far as it should.

Furthermore, and this is where I think shelter should actually play a role, if a player is taking shelter during the night and is using some form of illumination... it should be able to be seen from pretty far off. As of now, you just have to happen upon people lighting up a barn with chemlights... there's no, "Hey, that barn is glowing! Let's check it out". It's only "Holy crap! This barn we're ten feet away from is glowing!".

Back on topic however, I think banditry as an action is perfectly worthwhile and adds something to both the survivor experience and obviously the experience of being a bandit. I do feel a need to discourage the deathmatching and camping of loot-able areas, by spreading the loot out more and giving new players more incentive to head inland rather than remaining on the coast.

[SensenmanN (DayZ) 5]

There is a huge flaw with your reasoning' date=' what skin a player has is irrelevant of his play style.

Simply put. X does not imply Y.

[/quote']

That would be a flaw with the game.

My reasoning isn't how players with a skin act, it's how other players react to a skin. People shoot bandit skin on sigh, generally even if you say friendly.

Also, with your line of logic, why even bother having skins?

[Napoleon Solo 10]

With friends and foes having the same skin it's impossible to know who's who. Many servers disable the name tags (good, because I don't want to see hidden people and so on), but there has to be a way of identifying people. More clothes in that case.

[Jester. 6]

Those who say it's realistic, what's so realistic about the bandit skin?

---

Regardless' date=' TKJ, you should know better. This isn't the section for this kind of thing. I'm moving it to General but I won't shovel it on top of the PVP heap as long as this thread stays clean and constructive. If you want it moved to the Bandit Campfire section or something I can do that too... but unless you have a concrete, *unique* suggestion (and a title that reflects it), this one can't stay here. Sorry.

[/quote']

What in the world are you talking about? How is this *not* a suggestion?

[Sabre (DayZ) 4]

Remove Bandit skin, and remove the bugged Humanity system. It's broken and serves no good.

Enstead give us the ability to chose our own survivor skins, and perhaps make camo something you can find at military locations. (if possible in Arma2... I know it will be possible in Arma3)

There is nothing realisitc about morphing into a KSK member because you shot someone in the face. Also it doesn't help to address the growing problem with the notorious Deathmatch-Mentality that has ruled this game ever since it became known outside the Arma community.

[qla 0]

I myself would only like to see the humanity factor as a stat that does not effect the game at all, like all the other stats we already have. And then, when and if it is able to be done, let the players choose or better yet, find a "outfit" (changes model). Say, one could find a cherno soldier uniform at the military tents/barracks, a ghillie suit could be a really rare find also.. etc.

[Mutonizer 78]

Totally agree that the skin change when becoming bandit is rather silly, as is the humanity level, but I understand it from a pure game-play perspective.

I mean, without it and since you can't change human nature, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely trust anyone, ever, unless you were already part of a clan and stuff. It's already insanely risky as it is now, but remove that and no two people would ever meet without both trying to instantly run or put bullets in each others.

That said, your entire argument about this is silly. You can perfectly be a good guy for some time, then, once you die, well you're next guy can totally be a bad guy. What you cannot do currently is have the SAME guy do both, at least not reliably.

Also, using the "[..]"become an entirely new character", combined with the EVE experience, AND the fact that you pretty much describe wanting the stuff what most people know of EVE (which is: everyone just scamming everyone else, or trying, whatever the means), well, that sums up to me that you just want a new place to scam, harass and otherwise spend days tormenting people for your pleasure. Soooo, the entire "roleplay" argument doesn't stand up long to that...

All that wall of text done however, I agree that I'm not too fond of the bandit/humanity system and that hopefully someday we'll have "looted" clothes that changes our skin, for more variety.

[oktyabr 53]

What in the world are you talking about? How is this *not* a suggestion?

Here are the guidelines for posting in the suggestion forum, since you obviously couldn't take the time to read them on your own:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1734

There are SEVERAL threads discussing the bandit skin, whether it should stay or not, blah, blah, blah. One of them, 23 pages long and started by rocket himself... and replied to by YOU:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=720&pid=10995#pid10995

I'm leaving this thread alone for the time being because it may actually serve a purpose. If you want to pick a fight with me, fine, but it won't be here.

[Sonicle 2]

That would be a flaw with the game.

My reasoning isn't how players with a skin act' date=' it's how other players react to a skin. People shoot bandit skin on sigh, generally even if you say friendly.

Also, with your line of logic, why even bother having skins?

[/quote']

That is a moot point. X and Y will always react unpredictably regardless of which skin is present, this is an observable fact within the game. A removal of the bandit skin will not change this.

Regardless of the number of skins the same problems will occur. My point has nothing to do with different skins, just the naivety to suggest skins is the problem and not the playerbase.

If OP wants to be a traitor to other players, he can do that regardless of skin.

[therussiandong@hotmail.com 5]

Please.. fix the bandit system..

I had my fun of being a mass murderer now I want to play with other people.

I'm a nice guy now :( I promise..

Hello?

Please respond.

[franklin 3]

I'm honestly not a fan of the bandit skin for a few reasons:

1: Rocket has stated that it was a technical problem for him, and the effort spent on the code for the bandit skin could be placed towards another area of focus with more benifit. That said, I do believe most of the issues have been resolved, though some people are still losing gear when switching from bandit back to survivor skin. I have witnessed this myself just two days ago.

2: The skin itself is contrary to its own purpose. The bandit skin being a more militarized person, utilizing camouflage to help hide himself from other humans. The skin presents the militarized appearance, however the camouflage pattern clashes so horribly with the surrounding foliage, that the camo instead works to help survivors spot the bandits. I could see this being done on purpose to make being a bandit more difficult, but wouldn't that go against the nature of the mod? Isn't the idea to not provide assistance to players in any way, so that the gameplay is real, and raw? Making bandits stand out is a gameplay assistance to survivors, and also let's survivors know that those in bandit skins may be more of a threat.

3: The threshold for becoming a bandit is far too low. One or two kills banishes a survivor to run with the cod pewpew kids. Survivors should be able to defend themselves without repercussions. If the threshold was closer to 8-10 kills it would be a more effective system. If not that many kills, allowing survivors to regain humanity quicker, where bandits can only regain humanity for acts of kindness would work as well. Even with the latter, the threshold for kills should be equal to at least 3 or 4 kills, as many bandits operate in pairs.

4: There is no counter to the bandit other than a survivor. If there is a system to identify who is a cod pewpew kid, we should also be able to identify who is a dedicated good player as well. Most survivors kill just as much as bandits, they just suck too much and get killed more, or shoot last, and so they don't get the loss in humanity. However if given the chance they will kill just as much as any other dedicated bandit out there. There needs to be a (for lack of a better term) postman skin.

[Celetrontmm 5]

Why not just go with resetting it when you die...

It seems pretty unfair to make you stay as a bandit when you die..