[Discussion] What is needed to make hardcore, properly hardcore?

[rickyriot 1009]

Ok, so we've all read the lamecore/hardcore debates, and that's all for the lulz and of course I'm more than happy to indulge in a little bit of jesting to oil the wheels, however what is needed in order to make the hardcore variant the sort of realistic survivalist shooter people want?

 

I used to play a lot of CoD (when it was good) and the difference between hardcore and lamecore tended to be based around damage and hit range. Clearly with DayZ being based around a military simulator that's not really something that will be a defining factor as all the bullet physics and damage algorithms are going to be the same; ie you are not going to hurt less from falling the same distance dependent on the server type. So what do we need in order to make hardcore a real challenge?

 

Obviously in hardcore the 3PP viewpoint is removed, that's a given so we don't need to discuss that (no.. really we don't, so let's not). We know that certain things will need to be improved in general (sound effects, for example) but those will be improved for both game types. Here are a few ideas aimed specifically at the hardcore mode:

 

 

1) First off I would like to see the aiming cursor removed. I've always felt it's been left in as part of the Alpha test build and will disappear sooner rather than later.

 

2) All water sources are infected. There might be a case where some pumps or ponds are not infected in the non hardcore server, although we've yet to find that out, however for hardcore I'd like to see all of them infected. You can only gain liquid from cans or boiling/purification. Rain collection would be a nice addition to this, but that's open to debate on whether that source would also be infected.

 

3) Colder, or at least a greater difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures based on the environment (sunny, cloudy, windy, etc)  I'd like to see clothing take on a much bigger role. It did so in the mod and I'm sure it'll make an appearance as the Alpha trundles along, but in general I'd like to see the ambient temperature being much less resulting in the need to find more/warming clothing and the need to keep clothing repaired. Food intake would also need to be upped as you would be burning more calories. Fires and other heat sources would be important as would cover and the insides of buildings - it would be particularly nice if we could use the already existing fireplaces of those buildings for our own fires. I don't want to move it so far as the possibility of burning houses down as I feel that would be a step too far (plus just about all the map would be burn out by over zealous kiddies!).

 

4) Fatigue. I don't want it so you need to stop every 5 minutes but I think fatigue should be more effective. A soldier can run for miles with a full pack and still have no problem processing the information around them and fighting enemies. Thing is in the game we are not soldiers, we are joe public and our bodies should react like joe public. If this means that female characters react differently then perhaps that's a Pandora's Box we should open (no smutty pun intended!). I am all for equality but the fact of life is that on average women have less muscle strength than men, does that mean they can withstand less pain, no not necessarily - after all they go through childbirth. You could also argue that the average female body is smaller and lighter which might be an advantage in certain circumstances.

 

5) Recovery. We clearly need recovery, and it'll never be realistic in comparison to real life (ie: a character taking months to get over a leg break), but I think it needs to be ramped up somewhat in hardcore. Currently you can go from near death in a gunfight to being almost full health in roughly 30 minutes if you have enough food and water. I'd like to see a case where you take (in game) maybe 10 or 12 hours between that transition.  It would provide more to the dynamic of an encounter if you needed to factor in the current state of your character and what possible outcomes if your player suffered more lasting after effects.

Edit: I'm going to add a "6" here, apologies to those who have answered only quoting the 5.

6) The inability to see how many bullets you have in a clip from the HUD/inventory. You either count your shots or interact with the gun (removing the clip) to see how many you have left.

 

 

Ok, so those are just some of the ideas off the top of my head. I'm not trying to indulge in any flaming here in regard to the different server types so let's leave that for the other threads I'd be interested to see if we could get a consensus on the way forward for hardcore.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ricp

[elLoCo 154]

1) YES

2) Not all, why should a well that pours water ground level be infected?

3) ABSOLUTELY!

4) It's a social construct, give women the possibility to enhance their strength and they will

5) I'm for this

 

you have my beans, Sir!

[punkvegita 44]

One thing I think to truely make hardcore a hardcore experience is add lives. Say maybe 3 lives a week, after those three deaths you wouldn't be able to play until the next week. You now that feeling you already get if you think your going to die and lose all your shit, it will be ten times that.

[rickyriot 1009]

you have my beans, Sir!

Thank you.

2) Not all, why should a well that pours water ground level be infected?

 

Not so much a why. You could ask the same question why should it be colder? I'm purely putting it forward to make the game more challenging.

4) It's a social construct, give women the possibility to enhance their strength and they will

 

Even then, I think it's unlikely in general that women would have more body strength (and everything that is associated with that, for example controlling the kick of a weapon). I am in no way suggesting they are inferior. Not at all. They are different though. Providing more dynamics to the character we play would be, imo, and interesting addition.

[Nicko2580 398]

Yes to all except the water. 

In reality you're going to find plenty of potable water. Any water that's coming up from underground and being filtered through rock or sediment is likely to be drinkable. Stagnant water obviously would be a very high risk. Clear, fast running streams with rocky bottoms would generally be okay to drink from as would wells (we're immune to the virus and there's no reason that wells would carry much in the way of risks otherwise. They're dug in places where water is drinkable for a reason). 

Perhaps instead of poisoned wells, many of them could be completely dried up instead, or the pumps themselves could be stuffed, forcing you to move to a new area to find water. 

In regular though, I have routinely drank from pools and stagnant ponds without getting sick - the chances of getting sick should be much much higher from certain types of water source. 

I'd love to see rain gathering introduced. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by Nicko2580

[xRann 126]

Even then, I think it's unlikely in general that women would have more body strength (and everything that is associated with that, for example controlling the kick of a weapon). I am in no way suggesting they are inferior. Not at all. They are different though. Providing more dynamics to the character we play would be, imo, and interesting addition.

It depends on the person. Seen plenty of males and females equally suck and shoot well. When it comes to physical strength, generally speaking males out do females, but I've know plenty of "amazons" and they'd give you a run for your money.

[slizzedy 70]

Ok, so we've all read the lamecore/hardcore debates, and that's all for the lulz and of course I'm more than happy to indulge in a little bit of jesting to oil the wheels, however what is needed in order to make the hardcore variant the sort of realistic survivalist shooter people want?

 

I used to play a lot of CoD (when it was good) and the difference between hardcore and lamecore tended to be based around damage and hit range. Clearly with DayZ being based around a military simulator that's not really something that will be a defining factor as all the bullet physics and damage algorithms are going to be the same; ie you are not going to hurt less from falling the same distance dependent on the server type. So what do we need in order to make hardcore a real challenge?

 

Obviously in hardcore the 3PP viewpoint is removed, that's a given so we don't need to discuss that (no.. really we don't, so let's not). We know that certain things will need to be improved in general (sound effects, for example) but those will be improved for both game types. Here are a few ideas aimed specifically at the hardcore mode:

 

 

1) First off I would like to see the aiming cursor removed. I've always felt it's been left in as part of the Alpha test build and will disappear sooner rather than later.

 

2) All water sources are infected. There might be a case where some pumps or ponds are not infected in the non hardcore server, although we've yet to find that out, however for hardcore I'd like to see all of them infected. You can only gain liquid from cans or boiling/purification. Rain collection would be a nice addition to this, but that's open to debate on whether that source would also be infected.

 

3) Colder, or at least a greater difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures based on the environment (sunny, cloudy, windy, etc)  I'd like to see clothing take on a much bigger role. It did so in the mod and I'm sure it'll make an appearance as the Alpha trundles along, but in general I'd like to see the ambient temperature being much less resulting in the need to find more/warming clothing and the need to keep clothing repaired. Food intake would also need to be upped as you would be burning more calories. Fires and other heat sources would be important as would cover and the insides of buildings - it would be particularly nice if we could use the already existing fireplaces of those buildings for our own fires. I don't want to move it so far as the possibility of burning houses down as I feel that would be a step too far (plus just about all the map would be burn out by over zealous kiddies!).

 

4) Fatigue. I don't want it so you need to stop every 5 minutes but I think fatigue should be more effective. A soldier can run for miles with a full pack and still have no problem processing the information around them and fighting enemies. Thing is in the game we are not soldiers, we are joe public and our bodies should react like joe public. If this means that female characters react differently then perhaps that's a Pandora's Box we should open (no smutty pun intended!). I am all for equality but the fact of life is that on average women have less muscle strength than men, does that mean they can withstand less pain, no not necessarily - after all they go through childbirth. You could also argue that the average female body is smaller and lighter which might be an advantage in certain circumstances.

 

5) Recovery. We clearly need recovery, and it'll never be realistic in comparison to real life (ie: a character taking months to get over a leg break), but I think it needs to be ramped up somewhat in hardcore. Currently you can go from near death in a gunfight to being almost full health in roughly 30 minutes if you have enough food and water. I'd like to see a case where you take (in game) maybe 10 or 12 hours between that transition.  It would provide more to the dynamic of an encounter if you needed to factor in the current state of your character and what possible outcomes if your player suffered more lasting after effects.

 

 

Ok, so those are just some of the ideas off the top of my head. I'm not trying to indulge in any flaming here in regard to the different server types so let's leave that for the other threads I'd be interested to see if we could get a consensus on the way forward for hardcore. 

 

1) Yes crosshair needs to be removed.

 

2) I dont quite agree on wells always being infected. Ponds - definitely since it's standing water. But wells feed from ground water, which is generally much cleaner than water from a pond or a river. But making wells not infectant at all would make it too easy. So I'd suggest giving them a very low chance to be infected.

 

3) Lower temperature at night would be nice, so you would have to wear warm clothing. But let's see what effect the rain will have, should be in the next updates if I remember correctly.

 

4) I actually think the way it's done at the moment is alright. Dont go over the top with realism, if you make a game 100% realistic it'll be a pain in the a** to play. ^^

 

5) Yes recovery should be slower on hardcore mode. Maybe also longer lasting effects from broken bones? At the moment you just use a morphine and you're good to go. For broken legs I'd like to see limping for some time, broken arms a bit more shaky view, even after treatment. Effects could be countered by painkillers?

[PJSleaze 111]

To add to number 3: not just fireplaces- Ability to use stoves in some of the houses, though you never know how much gas they have. Use them to cook and to heat the room. It's a way to keep yourself warm without all of the light and smoke. Can make some houses- even ones without loot- very valuable and worth defending.

[rickyriot 1009]

I suppose there is an argument either side regarding water, as we don't know what it is that has caused the outbreak. Could it be in the water table already? If that was the case then pumps would be infected. I add it in not so much as a realism element (although we would agree that for realism standing water should be infected) but to make the game harder.

[punkvegita 44]

 

4) Fatigue. I don't want it so you need to stop every 5 minutes but I think fatigue should be more effective. A soldier can run for miles with a full pack and still have no problem processing the information around them and fighting enemies. Thing is in the game we are not soldiers, we are joe public and our bodies should react like joe public. If this means that female characters react differently then perhaps that's a Pandora's Box we should open (no smutty pun intended!). I am all for equality but the fact of life is that on average women have less muscle strength than men, does that mean they can withstand less pain, no not necessarily - after all they go through childbirth. You could also argue that the average female body is smaller and lighter which might be an advantage in certain circumstances.

 

 

 

 

Ok, so those are just some of the ideas off the top of my head. I'm not trying to indulge in any flaming here in regard to the different server types so let's leave that for the other threads I'd be interested to see if we could get a consensus on the way forward for hardcore. 

I like all your other ideas and I can see them work, this one though I do not see it being implemented. your basically saying that all men are tougher and stronger than all women, when in reality it varies. Personally I do not see how making one better than the other would make hardcore a better experience.

[deebz1234 243]

its simple

 

just take the physics and concepts from Insurgency and you have THE ultimate hardcore mode.

 

so hit points, insane recoil, bullet drop, dispersion, scope aim/zoom principles and the zoom fog idea

 

i would love a proper proper hardcore mode..honestly that would rock. but so hard to do!
 

look at insurgency, its a total souce engine but done for the mature/patient/tactical crowd and optimized to the absolute tits. 200 fps in that game its unreal. its done so fucking well and i have yet to see COD kids playing it.

Edited February 28, 2014 by deebz1234

[Nicko2580 398]

I suppose there is an argument either side regarding water, as we don't know what it is that has caused the outbreak. Could it be in the water table already? If that was the case then pumps would be infected. I add it in not so much as a realism element (although we would agree that for realism standing water should be infected) but to make the game harder.

All survivors are immune to the virus, so it doesn't matter if it's in the water - we can't get infected. 

I think making water scarcer is fine, as long as it fits the game - hence my suggestion of broken down pumps. If you can't pump the water up from the well, you can't drink it! :p

[punkvegita 44]

Yes to all except the water. 

In reality you're going to find plenty of potable water. Any water that's coming up from underground and being filtered through rock or sediment is likely to be drinkable. Stagnant water obviously would be a very high risk. Clear, fast running streams with rocky bottoms would generally be okay to drink from as would wells (we're immune to the virus and there's no reason that wells would carry much in the way of risks otherwise. They're dug in places where water is drinkable for a reason). 

Perhaps instead of poisoned wells, many of them could be completely dried up instead, or the pumps themselves could be stuffed, forcing you to move to a new area to find water. 

In regular though, I have routinely drank from pools and stagnant ponds without getting sick - the chances of getting sick should be much much higher from certain types of water source. 

I'd love to see rain gathering introduced. 

 

 

I love the idea of some wells just being completely dried up, and every time the server restarts the location of those dried up wells would also change to keep things fresh and always a mystery.

[darthbane67 92]

All of these things will be added to REGULAR and HARDCORE down the road. I do not see any difference here from regular and hardcore these mechanics are coming to both. The cursor is the only one that will be a difference between the two other than no 3PP. This is a pointless discussions with the points you have raised talk about NEW features that HARDCORE will only have. DayZ is already suppose to be a "hardcore" game in general the different modes are mainly added to get rid of HUD and 3PP. They will not make one have different mechanics and values ie more gun recoil bullet drop and dispersion. That would mean they have to make and test 2 different sets of weapons for all weapons. They will have to write twice the code for no reason since the game is already hardcore. 

 

So think of features that doesn't require them to essentially make 2 different games.

[Valadain 270]

If you die on Hardcore, you die forever and can only then play regular. That would be hardcore.

[rickyriot 1009]

your basically saying that all men are tougher and stronger than all women, when in reality it varies. Personally I do not see how making one better than the other would make hardcore a better experience.

I am not, and in fairness I thought I had gone out of my way to explain where I was coming from that. There are some basic facts though, in general women have less muscle density and less body mass than men. I don't mean that as an insult or as some sort of sexist comment. I am not suggesting that women have a lower threshold of pain, in fact there are studies that suggest the opposite, but you can't argue with evolution which has evolved human females as weaker in strength and in physical endurance than the male counterpart.

 

just take the physics and concepts from Insurgency and you have THE ultimate hardcore mode.

I loved Insurgency when it first came out, a little less with Insurgency 2 but it was still pretty good. I've been looking at the new one and it's very stripped down look and feel certainly looks interesting.

[rickyriot 1009]

All of these things will be added to REGULAR and HARDCORE down the road. I do not see any difference here from regular and hardcore these mechanics are coming to both. The cursor is the only one that will be a difference between the two other than no 3PP. This is a pointless discussions with the points you have raised talk about NEW features that HARDCORE will only have. DayZ is already suppose to be a "hardcore" game in general the different modes are mainly added to get rid of HUD and 3PP. They will not make one have different mechanics and values ie more gun recoil bullet drop and dispersion. That would mean they have to make and test 2 different sets of weapons for all weapons. They will have to write twice the code for no reason since the game is already hardcore. 

 

So think of features that doesn't require them to essentially make 2 different games.

If they were all to be added then good. I would like to point out I don't want different "mechanics" or "physics" between the two, but I feel that the game will reach a point where it thinks it's realistic and hard while some players will wish for a greater level of depth and difficulty.

[punkvegita 44]

All of these things will be added to REGULAR and HARDCORE down the road. I do not see any difference here from regular and hardcore these mechanics are coming to both. The cursor is the only one that will be a difference between the two other than no 3PP. This is a pointless discussions with the points you have raised talk about NEW features that HARDCORE will only have. DayZ is already suppose to be a "hardcore" game in general the different modes are mainly added to get rid of HUD and 3PP. They will not make one have different mechanics and values ie more gun recoil bullet drop and dispersion. That would mean they have to make and test 2 different sets of weapons for all weapons. They will have to write twice the code for no reason since the game is already hardcore. 

 

So think of features that doesn't require them to essentially make 2 different games.

 

Your obviously on the wrong thread partner, and you sound like your working on the game yourself with all these " facts" your stating.

[darthbane67 92]

Your obviously on the wrong thread partner, and you sound like your working on the game yourself with all these " facts" your stating.

 

Read a damn article or dev blog about the game do some fraking research brother. Even follow dean on twitter these things I said above are all there for you to find on twitter articles dev blogs etc. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by KaserinSmarte67

[Rudette 435]

1) Aiming cursor removed.

Agreed.
 
2) All water sources are infected.

I think the chance for sickness/infection when drinking above ground water should be increased.
The number of wells dispersed across the map however, could be decreased.
 
3) Colder.

Colder nights, and harsher environments in the north.

I would like to see snowy areas  eventually included, perhaps with high-risk high reward loot spawns in them that you would have to spend a lot of time gathering the neccessary equipment to traverse through the cold (insulted clothes, firewood, ect) though this is more of a wish for both modes.
 
4) Fatigue.

I will form an opinion about fatigue after I how they choose to implement a fatigue system.
 
5) Recovery.

There is a fine line between too realistic and fun, I would like to see something tweaked here, but I am no good with numbers and it's a very thin line to tread.

However, I would like to see the same thing as mentioned with water; sickness and infection rates  that are drastically increased over the regular servers. You are punished more for using rags instead of bandages, and for not sterilizing your wounds. Redressing your wounds could also come into play here, causing you to use more of your supplies and/or scavenge more when injured.

6) No Ammo count in HUD

I like it. I would like there to be a notification when you try to stick a bullet into a full magazine.
"It won't budge"  something liek that. I don't know ;p

Edited February 28, 2014 by Rudette

[darthbane67 92]

If they were all to be added then good. I would like to point out I don't want different "mechanics" or "physics" between the two, but I feel that the game will reach a point where it thinks it's realistic and hard while some players will wish for a greater level of depth and difficulty.

Calling for different hit point values having ALL water be infected different fatigue values and recovery values are changing mechanics. The gun thing was aimed at people who said yes change gun values.

[rickyriot 1009]

Read a damn article or dev blog about the game do some fraking research brother. Even follow dean on twitter these things I said above are all there for you to find.

I've got a feeling you might think that I am looking at the Alpha as if the Beta (final?) product will be just a tidied up version of that. Obviously things will be added I am just not sure to the extent. I want a game that is difficult to play as well as realistic, I want a challenge. While the devs no doubt share that desire there is likely to be a point where they will dial back the difficulty in order to maximise the user base.

Calling for different hit point values having ALL water be infected different fatigue values and recovery values are changing mechanics. The gun thing was aimed at people who said yes change gun values.

Where did I call for different hit point values? In terms of mechanics perhaps I am guilty of using the term in it's scientific sense, rather than abstract. In the abstract yes.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ricp

[darthbane67 92]

I've got a feeling you might think that I am looking at the Alpha as if the Beta (final?) product will be just a tidied up version of that. Obviously things will be added I am just not sure to the extent. I want a game that is difficult to play as well as realistic, I want a challenge. While the devs no doubt share that desire there is likely to be a point where they will dial back the difficulty in order to maximise the user base.

 

Was not talking to you at all with that post hence me quoting the guy I was responding to. Also they will not be dialing back on those things they will be dialing up or honing it.

Edited February 28, 2014 by KaserinSmarte67

[rickyriot 1009]

Colder nights, and harsher environments in the north.

I would like to see snowy areas  eventually included, perhaps with high-risk high reward loot spawns in them that you would have to spend a lot of time gathering the neccessary equipment to traverse through the cold (insulted clothes, firewood, ect) though this is more of a wish for both modes.

 

The holy grail for me would be seasons, whether people would be willing to play a server for several months waiting for the spring/summer I'm not sure.

[Rudette 435]

Seasons would be pretty neat!

Being a fresh spawn in winter seems harsh though >.>
I suppose your first order of business would be lighting a small fire in whatever town you're scavenging.
Finding clothes and food.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Rudette