Knife damage, Knife type, Knife grip

[cj14 189]

I'm pretty sure we all know how shitty the melee system is, and adding the fact that the Firefighter Axe is the ONLY melee weapon that's worth the loot, is even shittier...but I love knives, and I'll drop a Mosin with LRS, Compensator, Bipod and ammobox for a knife  :rolleyes: I found a combat knife once, took me a lot to kill just one zombie, but I managed to slash him to death.

 

The thing with knives here is that they don't deal enough damage...take The Walking Dead or Resident Evil Remake as examples...where you can stab a zombie in the head and instanlty kill it quick and silently. We now grab our knives like this

But we should be able to grab it like this as well...

 

To a quick and firm stab to the head...slashing just feel very unnatural. I know it's just an alpha and it going to TAKE TIME

 

And about the different values for the knives I know it would be tricky to sort out, we don't want another Fire Axe monopoly. So I was thinking about Attributes. Let me explain with pictures

 

-Military Knife: We already have this implemented (but it need a damage boost and what I said about stance) but it could have a more powerful but slower attack than the other knives. Have a small chance to bleed (Attribute: High power, possibly a one stab kill like the axe)

 

 

-Pocket Knife: Common knife used to protect yourself, should deal a little amount of damage, have a regular chance of bleeding and have a fast attack speed (Attribute: Small size on inventory, fast attack speed)

 

 

-Hunting Knife: Powerful knife used to hunt animals, Gutting animals with this knife is a lot faster that with any other. Deals regular damage, regular chance to bleed and has a slow attack speed (Attribute: Fast gutting speed)

 

 

Kitchen Knife: We have this one as well. Attack Speed and power are fine, but this should have a higher chance to bleed (Attribute: Highest chance to make your enemy bleed)

 

 

Survival Knife: Upgraded version of the Pocket Knife. Fast attack speed but deals a little bit more damage, like the Hunting Knife. Low chance to bleed (Attribute: Most resistant knife)

 

Obviously they all should be able to be holded like the picture above. Damage value should vary not too much from each other, so that way any knife could be a proper weapon and people could choose their weapon of choice by they preference or convenience. Not for being the only GOOD melee weapon out there.

 

 

PS: Excuse my horrible presentation for this thread, I wrote it two times and there were some errors regarding the internet explorer and the image extensions, so I am a little bit tired of this shit <3

[mithrawndo 166]

I like the idea though my suggestion would be to also add knife stances as an addition, rather than replacing the current orientation.

 

Right click to swap between under and over arm stances?

[-Gews- 7443]

I don't agree with different "chances to bleed" (all knives make you bleed). Getting stabbed with a Kabar will have the same end result as being stabbed with an 8-inch chef's knife, so it shouldn't be "military knife = 1 shot kill" while other similar knives (kitchen, hunting, survival, etc) are weaker. As well the differences in weight are irrelevant for speed. The advantage of the Kabar is the more secure grip and the stronger blade.

A razor sharp knife will cause more damage much easier than a dull knife will, sharpness along with blade length should be the main factor for damage, but even a dull knife stabs well.

[cejota14 130]

I don't agree with different "chances to bleed" (all knives make you bleed). Getting stabbed with a Kabar will have the same end result as being stabbed with an 8-inch chef's knife, so it shouldn't be "military knife = 1 shot kill" while other similar knives (kitchen, hunting, survival, etc) are weaker. As well the differences in weight are irrelevant for speed. The advantage of the Kabar is the more secure grip and the stronger blade.

A razor sharp knife will cause more damage much easier than a dull knife will, sharpness along with blade length should be the main factor for damage, but even a dull knife stabs well.

 

This is an MMO, every item here have stats...currently the machete has a higher chance to bleed than the Firefighter Axe, the Hoodie has a better protection against bleeding than the raincoat and so on. Knives that are already in-game have different chances values just as any other weapon in the game

[cj14 189]

I like the idea though my suggestion would be to also add knife stances as an addition, rather than replacing the current orientation.

 

Right click to swap between under and over arm stances?

 

 Excellent Idea my friend :D

 

 

 

This is an MMO, every item here have stats...currently the machete has a higher chance to bleed than the Firefighter Axe, the Hoodie has a better protection against bleeding than the raincoat and so on. Knives that are already in-game have different chances values just as any other weapon in the game

 

Exactly, there's already different chances to bleed according to the weapon and it's status. Anyway, it was JUST AN IDEA...details must be checked by the devs if this suggestion is ever considered...I'll leave all that to their judgement :)

[fewwdragon 2]

A few thoughts the hunter/combat knife/kitchen/survival knife can probably should have similar damage  they are all long fixed blade knifes. The only difference is speed and durability,  the blood grove present in the combat style knives so maybe it would just be faster to swing (assuming stabbing not slashing) the kitchen knife should wear very quickly like one grade for each kill. I would ditch the survival knife idea, unless it could also be a one slot container. Or included a compass which work very well how you mentioned to hold the blade. I think the small pocket knife should be very quick, very low damage and should be abundant along with the kitchen knife.  

[Nicko2580 398]

This is a suggestion forum so anyone that yells alpha in here is in the wrong place. If this was in General I could get it, but this is the place for suggestions for future additions to the game. We all know it's alpha.

Otherwise, yeah I am all for new stuff like this. It would be cool, especially having different animations for attacks rather than just a slash. I've never understood why pretty much all FPS games have a slashing animation for the knife, when you can't ever actually have a proper knife fight with anyone (parries etc).

Lastly, just wanted to point out that the Splitting Axe is also a great weapon currently if you can't find the Fireman's Axe. 

[-Gews- 7443]

This is an MMO, every item here have stats...currently the machete has a higher chance to bleed than the Firefighter Axe, the Hoodie has a better protection against bleeding than the raincoat and so on. Knives that are already in-game have different chances values just as any other weapon in the game

That doesn't make much sense either, but axes and knives are two different things... all these knives are essentially the same thing. One knife shouldn't act completely different than another knife just because it happens to be called "military" or has a black-coated blade.

Any difference in damage should be rooted in reality, ie: blade is sharper, blade is bigger, blade is heavier. Other differences should come down to durability and ease of carry.

Here are two knives. Top is a Khyber knife made for killing people - bottom is a kitchen knife made for cutting food.

Note the similarity.

With equal sharpness and size, is there going to be a large difference between the damage these two knives do? No. Should there be a large difference between these knives in a game? No.

Same logic applies to DayZ. If a kitchen knife is nice and sharp is it quite formidable.

[cj14 189]

That doesn't make much sense either, but axes and knives are two different things... all these knives are essentially the same thing. One knife shouldn't act completely different than another knife just because it happens to be called "military" or has a black-coated blade.

Any difference in damage should be rooted in reality, ie: blade is sharper, blade is bigger, blade is heavier. Other differences should come down to durability and ease of carry.

Here are two knives. Top is a Khyber knife made for killing people - bottom is a kitchen knife made for cutting food.

Note the similarity.

With equal sharpness and size, is there going to be a large difference between the damage these two knives do? No. Should there be a large difference between these knives in a game? No.

Same logic applies to DayZ. If a kitchen knife is nice and sharp is it quite formidable.

 

We all know that. But this is a GAME, not a simulator...so we MUST have things to be variants even with items that should act similarly. In that case, why do we have so many vest with different values? or why do we have 2 axes that deal practically the same damage? anyway, this was just an idea as I said before... not a complex one I might add

[-Gews- 7443]

We all know that. But this is a GAME, not a simulator...so we MUST have things to be variants even with items that should act similarly.

 

I disagree, I don't like looking at something in-game and realizing "that doesn't make any sense". There are plenty of other differences that could be made between the different types of knives.

[- Karma - 75]

I disagree, I don't like looking at something in-game and realizing "that doesn't make any sense". There are plenty of other differences that could be made between the different types of knives.

 

Yeah I'm with Gews on this one.  I would say the melee system as it regards knives and damage should be broken down something like this:

 

- straight blade or serrated blade? serrated should do more damage, usually (for puncturing it can be better to not have a serrated blade for ease of blade sliding through "meat" to produce deeper wounds)

 

- size of blade? larger blade should do more damage (the actual wound from a kitchen knife puncture would be larger than a pocket knife, right?)

 

- grip/attack type? slash/cut attack vs thrust/stab attack would be important; I would say the swinging arc of a cut attack would be easier to hit with due to a larger area of attack, but do less damage; a thrust attack would/should do more damage but have a very narrow area of attack.

 

I think this is more what Gews means (apologies if putting words in your mouth Gews, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong :) ), rather than just saying "Combat Knife=damage 100" vs "Kitchen Knife=damage 50".

[cj14 189]

Yeah I'm with Gews on this one.  I would say the melee system as it regards knives and damage should be broken down something like this:

 

- straight blade or serrated blade? serrated should do more damage, usually (for puncturing it can be better to not have a serrated blade for ease of blade sliding through "meat" to produce deeper wounds)

 

- size of blade? larger blade should do more damage (the actual wound from a kitchen knife puncture would be larger than a pocket knife, right?)

 

- grip/attack type? slash/cut attack vs thrust/stab attack would be important; I would say the swinging arc of a cut attack would be easier to hit with due to a larger area of attack, but do less damage; a thrust attack would/should do more damage but have a very narrow area of attack.

 

I think this is more what Gews means (apologies if putting words in your mouth Gews, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong :) ), rather than just saying "Combat Knife=damage 100" vs "Kitchen Knife=damage 50".

 

a straight blade deals more damage than a serrated one, the thickness of the blade, the longitude, the curvature and the sharpness are huge variants that determine how easy is to inflict certain amount of damage on a human being or any object. So "stats" on these knives should vary a lot according to those specification. I do not ask for realism, I ask for fun and fair choice of weapon to something of your preference, instead of what deals more damage. A military knife is made to penetrate armor, a kitchen knife is made to slash meat, a survival knife are made to carve wood, dirt and such, a pocket knife is made to rip paper, carton and thing like that and a hunting knife is made to cut skin. Obviously you can give these another use, but each one is made with a clear purpose (that does not mean that can't be used for something else) and trust me...they have a LOT of difference. So they should deal different damage values.

[rickenbacker 190]

Knives are very underpowered at the moment, seems like only the big, heavy weapons do any damage at all. It'll get rebalanced eventually.

 

I like the idea of two knife "stances", though. Could just be switched with space, like every other weapon.

[- Karma - 75]

a straight blade deals more damage than a serrated one, the thickness of the blade, the longitude, the curvature and the sharpness are huge variants that determine how easy is to inflict certain amount of damage on a human being or any object. So "stats" on these knives should vary a lot according to those specification. I do not ask for realism, I ask for fun and fair choice of weapon to something of your preference, instead of what deals more damage. A military knife is made to penetrate armor, a kitchen knife is made to slash meat, a survival knife are made to carve wood, dirt and such, a pocket knife is made to rip paper, carton and thing like that and a hunting knife is made to cut skin. Obviously you can give these another use, but each one is made with a clear purpose (that does not mean that can't be used for something else) and trust me...they have a LOT of difference. So they should deal different damage values.

 

I hate the internet sometimes - I read and reread this message and felt like it was abrasive.  I don't see why though, because I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing so why would it be?

 

I think we're agreed that we would both rather have knives have "roles" in a sense, like all the weapons in this game should, with different strengths and weaknesses.  BUT the first step is brining all of the melee weapons in line so there is not this ridiculously huge gap.  Hell, even a Hacksaw could do a lot of damage to tissue under the right circumstances - it would just be awkward to use.  What my original post was about is lessening the punishment of damage disparity, and making it about something else like range or accuracy.

[irishroy 1347]

 

Hm, a good ol' bowie knife.

 

I'll take the hunting knife.

Looks good and should be good for stabbing animals hearts, etc.

Edited February 22, 2014 by irishroy

[-Gews- 7443]

Hm, a good ol' bowie knife.

 

Ah... the Hibben copy of the Musso bowie. Many people have severe doubts about the authenticity of that knife; in any case it's not a typical example and the design is not very practical either.

 

Some examples of very early "bowies", the Forrest, Searles and Schively/Perkins.

 

 

 

Here's a "bowie" at the Alamo museum, this is actually a trade knife.

 

 

 

Some examples of common fur trade knives.

 

 

 

 

Later the bowie morphed into the form we know today.

 

[Nylrem 12]

I just want to point out that most hunters I know would rather have that pocket knife for gutting than the "hunting knife" you posted.  The reasing being that it can actually be more difficult to gut with a large blade because it's harder to control, and you are more likely to cut organs open which could spoil the meat.

 

I'm trying not to go into too much detail, but the smaller one would be faster, easier, and safer.  Which is why most "gutting" knives that makers sell with that gimmick are no more than 3"  sometimes more but usually your bigger brands such as gerber, sog, coldsteel, and others keep them smaller.

 

And largely blade materials, sharpness, full/partial tang, etc., and training have more to do with damage than the knife itself.  Someone highly training with a 2" karambit could quickly and safely dispatch a zombie better than a housewith with a kabar.

 

Plus why not add in the possibility of cutting oneself?  Even the best trained fighters can hurt themselves on knives, especially if there is no hilt, like most kitchen or pocket knives.

 

My last note is that most real "survival knives" such as the bear grylls gerber that was shown is just a combat or pocket knive rebranded and put at a higher price point to make people think they are special.  And the hollow ones are usually cheap junk that would break if you tried to use it to cut a branch let alone a bone.

[irishroy 1347]

Woo, all these knives!

[kitthegreat 43]

Yep I'd dearly love to see knives implemented properly (and I'm sure they will be). For the sake on context this is the tactical knife/Bayonet of the Czech armed forces.

 

 

Can't imagine a knife I'd rather shove into an undead cranium.