Weapon Balance vs "Realism"

[Jack Dant 158]

2- Even in real life Mosin would win long range engagements. 

Maybe. Someone suggested that at 300m+ the mosin would win. Patently false. Standing still I may not be able to put every shot in the 10 ring at 300m with my M4 (although I probably could, my M4 in real life has a magpul handguard which as I'm sure you're aware increases accuracy by 100000%) but I could certainly hit a human sized target 100% of the time.

If you can do that standing, off hand, with a factory M4, well, you should probably go for the olympics. With a competition rifle you would probably win.

 

 

3- 5.56 lacks sufficient stopping power/7.62 is a better man stopper

What? The 5.56 round packs around 1500 ft-lb of force depending on the load. The 7.62x39 is around 1700 on average. This might be the stupidest argument against the M4. Do you have any idea what EITHER round would do against an unarmored target?

And the 7.62x54 has over 3500J (~2600 ft-lb) of muzzle energy, a good 70% more than an M4.

 

But muzzle energy is a very bad measure of stopping power. It places a lot of emphasis on the muzzle velocity, since it depends on its square, making small and fast rounds seem more effective than big and slow ones.

 

Yet, the people who actually need a lot of stopping power, those who hunt animals that don't take kindly to being hunted, they usually go for the opposite. Big slow cartridges, and heavy for caliber bullets inside that. Bullet momentum is a better approximation of stopping power. And you can take it further by including bullet diameter.

 

By those measures, the 7.62x39mm is a good 50% better than the 5.56x45mm. And the mosin miles ahead.

[asgar 23]

Nope that is simply what the gun was shooting with the surplus ammo I used.

 

It has nothing to do with me being American or not heck there are probably more mosins in American homes than there are in Russian homes.

 

The simple fact is that it is a 100 year old rifle design a very robust rifle but its not a tact driver. Its a well made rifle that can do the job but from what I have personally shot it is not very accurate at all.

 

4 inch groups at 100 yards is satisfactory but nothing to write home about.

ok, i shot the Mosin, the Modell 98, the Swiss Carbine, and a lot of the Carbines that were produced after the design of the Modell 98. And the Modell 98 would be my first choice over any other rifle out there. it's design is 125 year old design, but it's the best design on this planet. which is why the americans stole the design and the rest of the world produced it in license.

and if you can't get a better result than a 4 inch group on 90m with any of these rifles...you're doing it wrong

[gibonez 3633]

ok, i shot the Mosin, the Modell 98, the Swiss Carbine, and a lot of the Carbines that were produced after the design of the Modell 98. And the Modell 98 would be my first choice over any other rifle out there. it's design is 125 year old design, but it's the best design on this planet. which is why the americans stole the design and the rest of the world produced it in license.

and if you can't get a better result than a 4 inch group on 90m with any of these rifles...you're doing it wrong

 

Different mosins from different regions have different characteristics.

 

Mosin I shot was a  russian made one made in 1943 with a hex receiver .

 

Mosins are simply not that accurate after doing a little bit of research I can safely say it was not user error but the gun is just inherently inaccurate as you would expect out of a mass produced war time weapon that is over 100 years in design.

 

Looking online a bone stock mosin the best group I can find is just under 3 inches at 100 yards. Worst group is daam near 7 inches.

Edited February 10, 2014 by gibonez

[Jack Dant 158]

Mosins are simply not that accurate after doing a little bit of research I can safely say it was not user error but the gun is just inherently inaccurate as you would expect out of a mass produced war time weapon that is over 100 years in design.

Design age is mostly irrelevant to accuracy. Today many custom hunting rifles are made with mauser 98 pattern rifles, be they actual recycled military actions, or newly built ones. And they are as accurate as any modern design. The tolerances, bedding, and barrel wear matter a lot more. Not to mention ammo.

 

The mosin's current accuracy, by the way, seems about right judging by Gews' thread. It's the compensator and bipod increasing accuracy directly instead of recoil and sway that's broken. And rocket has already said that's a temporary thing (for the compensator and I assume the bipod too).

 

But it seems very likely Bohemia will introduce a CZ 550/557 at some point. Czech companies sticking together and all that. Those should be more accurate than the mosin, as they are IRL.

[gibonez 3633]

The mosin's current accuracy, by the way, seems about right judging by Gews' thread. It's the compensator and bipod increasing accuracy directly instead of recoil and sway that's broken. And rocket has already said that's a temporary thing (for the compensator and I assume the bipod too).

 

 

 

Yea this is my biggest pet peeve and yes even the bipod increases the guns accuracy in standalone.

 

They need a new system.

[sabaka (DayZ) 70]

If you can do that standing, off hand, with a factory M4, well, you should probably go for the olympics. With a competition rifle you would probably win.

 

And the 7.62x54 has over 3500J (~2600 ft-lb) of muzzle energy, a good 70% more than an M4.

 

But muzzle energy is a very bad measure of stopping power. It places a lot of emphasis on the muzzle velocity, since it depends on its square, making small and fast rounds seem more effective than big and slow ones.

 

Yet, the people who actually need a lot of stopping power, those who hunt animals that don't take kindly to being hunted, they usually go for the opposite. Big slow cartridges, and heavy for caliber bullets inside that. Bullet momentum is a better approximation of stopping power. And you can take it further by including bullet diameter.

 

By those measures, the 7.62x39mm is a good 50% better than the 5.56x45mm. And the mosin miles ahead.

 

 

-My M4 has a 3 point sling, a magpul handguard, and a primary arms red dot optic. Hitting a stationary human sized target while standing still at 300m would not be a particularly difficult shot for you, me, or anyone else with experience with the gun. It's the newer generation Colt law enforcement series with the monolithic upper and full floating barrel so quite frankly the gun is far more accurate to ranges up to and far beyond 300m than I will ever be as a shooter (Colt claims effective range of 600m on their website, and I have to believe that handguard, sling, and optic increases that)

 

-Did you not read what I posted after the muzzle energy numbers? Would you rather be run over by a truck going 70 mph or a train going 70 mph? It doesn't matter. You won't notice the difference. If bringing down a charging rhinoceros is ever part of this game you might have a point, but we're talking about shooting humans. 5.56 has plenty of stopping power. Anyone who thinks that taking a center of mass hit from 5.56 won't immediately incapacitate you has been playing too many video games and almost certainly never seen a 5.56 round or fired a rifle in that caliber.

 

edit: gratuitous gun porn: (both the rifles on the top right are mine. When zombie time comes if I can only have one the bolt gun is getting left behind.)

Edited February 10, 2014 by sabaka

[Tuktanuk 4]

It's funny. people talk realism and ballistics in a game.... They talk about the Mosin vs SKS vs M4. In reality, anyone shot by any of the 3 is not getting up after one round hits center mass. @ 300 meters; all are deadly. If not for the Hydro static shock of bullet impact then certainly from an exit wound. In the case of the M4's 5.56 ammo. The bullet it very lightweight and therefor collapses and tumbles inside; acting like a saw ripping through tissue and organs. Now..... Ballistics and gun behavior is being touted.... and while the in game physics is a fair representation; it does not nor will it ever match perfectly. There are far too many factors.... as many as there are different types of ammunition. I do not know (or claim to) how many of you have actually shot and killed anything in RL. Well; I shot and killed a Coyote  from ~250 yards with my Mini-14 (5.56 ammo). 1 shot placed right behind the right shoulder. I was shocked when I saw what happened next..... The bullet had completely blown off the leg on the exit and left a massive hole. For anyone to say that the 5.56 does not have enough energy to take anything out is just completely full of Beans.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Tuktanuk

[Admiral_69 78]

Sweet idea Sabaka!

Charging zombie rhinoceros!!!

[rybo 171]

If you can do that standing, off hand, with a factory M4, well, you should probably go for the olympics. With a competition rifle you would probably win.

 

And the 7.62x54 has over 3500J (~2600 ft-lb) of muzzle energy, a good 70% more than an M4.

 

But muzzle energy is a very bad measure of stopping power. It places a lot of emphasis on the muzzle velocity, since it depends on its square, making small and fast rounds seem more effective than big and slow ones.

 

Yet, the people who actually need a lot of stopping power, those who hunt animals that don't take kindly to being hunted, they usually go for the opposite. Big slow cartridges, and heavy for caliber bullets inside that. Bullet momentum is a better approximation of stopping power. And you can take it further by including bullet diameter.

 

By those measures, the 7.62x39mm is a good 50% better than the 5.56x45mm. And the mosin miles ahead.

 

Lulz but they have thicker hide thicker meat etc, etc, weight in at more than a 1000lbs etc, etc...

 

Unless we are hunting literal big game and or Honey Boo Boo's mom then that argument is mute. You don't need to literate Bigger=Better when that is only subject to the size of the critter your trying to bag..

 

Again coming from experience like surprising half the commenter's in this forum that size don't mean shit. It's about shot placement. The bigger the bullet the less skill the shooter needs. Also last tid bit. Most big game is taken at distance under 50yards. Your gonna want a cannon when that Rhino doesn't like the idea of you walking up to it.

[rybo 171]

It's funny. people talk realism and ballistics in a game.... They talk about the Mosin vs SKS vs M4. In reality, anyone shot by any of the 3 is not getting up after one round hits center mass. @ 300 meters; all are deadly. If not for the Hydro static shock of bullet impact then certainly from an exit wound. In the case of the M4's 5.56 ammo. The bullet it very lightweight and therefor collapses and tumbles inside; acting like a saw ripping through tissue and organs. Now..... Ballistics and gun behavior is being touted.... and while the in game physics is a fair representation; it does not nor will it ever match perfectly. There are far too many factors.... as many as there are different types of ammunition. I do not know (or claim to) how many of you have actually shot and killed anything in RL. Well; I shot and killed a Coyote  from ~250 yards with my Mini-14 (5.56 ammo). 1 shot placed right behind the right shoulder. I was shocked when I saw what happened next..... The bullet had completely blown off the leg on the exit and left a massive hole. For anyone to say that the 5.56 does not have enough energy to take anything out is just completely full of Beans.

 

And that's what most do not understand due to lack of knowledge. A .22 will kill you just as fast as a .50 caliber.

 

And I'm glad you brought up the point about shooting a yote and blowing it's leg off with a 556 basically stating how devastating it can be. Cause even though it's the same animal I have shot one with a .308 and watched it run off into the sunset. Why cause mine was a shit shot. If you put a round in anythings vitals even outside the "effective killing range" of said rounds you will still kill it unless it has access to proper medical attention.

 

It would be fantastic if they could find a way to do a vitals hit box. Such as heart/lungs/liver and major arteries. They of course would be small but would provide a very quick bleed out to death or instant death with any caliber.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RyBo

[Leo Balzac 190]

I'm not going to read the rest of this. M4 is more accurate than the Mosin, end of story. M4 is also more complicated than the mosin, end of story. Does the M4 belong in DayZ SA? Absolutely not, but it's here.

 

Would I prefer an M4 over a Mosin in a survival scenario? Probably not. In a post apocalyptic world, I would stay as far away from springs as possible. While not as fast to load/slower rate of fire than an M4, the Mosin, Lee Enfield, Springfield, heck any bolt action will be more reliable in the long run.

 

In the end, does the person/animal you're shooting at care if you can get 1" groups at 500m? no. If a gun can hit a standard dinner plate at 200-300m, it's good enough to do the job.

[sabaka (DayZ) 70]

The original point of this thread was that the M4 in game should be more accurate than the Mosin in game, not wildly less accurate.

 

Also in "a survival scenario" I'm not sure what you'd personally prefer, but in THIS* survival scenario you'd be a fool to not take the M4. The fact that that isn't represented in the gameplay is a reflection of very poor weapon characteristics in this game. The developers need to either state that the intention is weapon balancing to encourage using all of them, or get it right.

 

*This scenario:

-weapons don't really degrade

-ammo is everywhere for every caliber

-zombies

-50% of idiots you meet will try to kill you on sight. An additional 25% will try to kill you soon after. Many of those idiots will have M4s.

-You have to go to cities or towns every few hours or you starve

[frosti 2165]

 

-50% of idiots you meet will try to kill you on sight. An additional 25% will try to kill you soon after. Many of those idiots will have M4s.

-You have to go to cities or towns every few hours or you starve

 

That is untill hunting is in game and

 

And idiots with m4 hang only in big cities

 

But there is plently of smaller villages where there is no idiots with m4 ever.

[Leo Balzac 190]

The original point of this thread was that the M4 in game should be more accurate than the Mosin in game, not wildly less accurate.

 

Also in "a survival scenario" I'm not sure what you'd personally prefer, but in THIS* survival scenario you'd be a fool to not take the M4. The fact that that isn't represented in the gameplay is a reflection of very poor weapon characteristics in this game. The developers need to either state that the intention is weapon balancing to encourage using all of them, or get it right.

 

*This scenario:

-weapons don't really degrade

-ammo is everywhere for every caliber

-zombies

-50% of idiots you meet will try to kill you on sight. An additional 25% will try to kill you soon after. Many of those idiots will have M4s.

-You have to go to cities or towns every few hours or you starve

I get that, and you are right, the M4 is the better choice for in-game weapon at the moment. I don't use it because I prefer bolt actions IRL and I'm a bit of a RPer.

 

M4 shouldn't be in the game. Lots of AK47's, a few 74's maybe, some other combloc weapons but no NATO/US weaponry should be present, in my opinion. The devs are free to do what they like.

[frosti 2165]

The m4's and other american stuff are left by USA forces that invaded Chernorus.

[rybo 171]

I'm not going to read the rest of this. M4 is more accurate than the Mosin, end of story. M4 is also more complicated than the mosin, end of story. Does the M4 belong in DayZ SA? Absolutely not, but it's here.

 

Would I prefer an M4 over a Mosin in a survival scenario? Probably not. In a post apocalyptic world, I would stay as far away from springs as possible. While not as fast to load/slower rate of fire than an M4, the Mosin, Lee Enfield, Springfield, heck any bolt action will be more reliable in the long run.

 

In the end, does the person/animal you're shooting at care if you can get 1" groups at 500m? no. If a gun can hit a standard dinner plate at 200-300m, it's good enough to do the job.

 

 

I get that, and you are right, the M4 is the better choice for in-game weapon at the moment. I don't use it because I prefer bolt actions IRL and I'm a bit of a RPer.

 

M4 shouldn't be in the game. Lots of AK47's, a few 74's maybe, some other combloc weapons but no NATO/US weaponry should be present, in my opinion. The devs are free to do what they like.

 

 

In the mod I would say the M4 is a must considering the world is littered with HUMMV's and Huey helicopters showing that a NATO force was 110% present in the world before your Bambie spawned magically on the shore.

 

Since we have no evidence other than weapon type to guess if the NATO forces have landed in the SA history it is up for grabs but it's hard to refute the fact that the M4 is present hinting if not out right telling us get ready for more NATO equipment.

 

Just my 2 Cents. Personally think it's more logical too vs the basic argument of "It's Russia, No American guns".  As if America the country that knocks on everyone's door would sit idly by as a Z-Poc was unleashing in Russia...The Lulz I get from the lack of thought going on in this thread. Im surprized we don't also see Chineese weapons or one of the many other nations on the boarder of Russia. Personally I think it would be great if the NWAF is Russian. The NEAF is USA. The SEAF is another country. With the Military bases and check points being a mix based on the distance from the respected airfields.

 

Also with the amount of copy/pasting going on in the SA I fully expect to see the Huey's and HUMMV'S again scattered across the landscape soon enough. Once that finally happens people will stfu...

Edited February 10, 2014 by RyBo

[frosti 2165]

 

  As if America the country that knocks on everyone's door would sit idly by as a Z-Poc was unleashing

[eleventhavenue 204]

Well, I kind of doubt that South Zagoria would be a top priority area if there was a world-wide zed infestation...

I mean, it's not even in central Chernarus...

[Leo Balzac 190]

In the mod I would say the M4 is a must considering the world is littered with HUMMV's and Huey helicopters showing that a NATO force was 110% present in the world before your Bambie spawned magically on the shore.

 

Since we have no evidence other than weapon type to guess if the NATO forces have landed in the SA history it is up for grabs but it's hard to refute the fact that the M4 is present hinting if not out right telling us get ready for more NATO equipment.

 

Just my 2 Cents. Personally think it's more logical too vs the basic argument of "It's Russia, No American guns".  As if America the country that knocks on everyone's door would sit idly by as a Z-Poc was unleashing in Russia...The Lulz I get from the lack of thought going on in this thread. Im surprized we don't also see Chineese weapons or one of the many other nations on the boarder of Russia. Personally I think it would be great if the NWAF is Russian. The NEAF is USA. The SEAF is another country. With the Military bases and check points being a mix based on the distance from the respected airfields.

 

Also with the amount of copy/pasting going on in the SA I fully expect to see the Huey's and HUMMV'S again scattered across the landscape soon enough. Once that finally happens people will stfu..

 

All right, I will concede that there may have been US intervention in Russia in this universe; very unlikely, however, but if that's the case, that would mean the Charnaurus would have been a major flashpoint in the 'war on the zeds' meaning there should be significant military hardware all over the place.

 

I wonder if no american vehicles get put in the game if those pro-USA hardware will stfu....I doubt it though.

[Fear The Amish 40]

All right, I will concede that there may have been US intervention in Russia in this universe; very unlikely, however, but if that's the case, that would mean the Charnaurus would have been a major flashpoint in the 'war on the zeds' meaning there should be significant military hardware all over the place.

 

I wonder if no american vehicles get put in the game if those pro-USA hardware will stfu....I doubt it though.

 

There are already blown humvees all over the place, also the trucks are Deuce and 1/2's. While the trucks could be mothballed surplus pulled out the humvee's are not.

[Valadain 270]

I'm not going to read the rest of this. M4 is more accurate than the Mosin, end of story. M4 is also more complicated than the mosin, end of story. Does the M4 belong in DayZ SA? Absolutely not, but it's here.

 

Would I prefer an M4 over a Mosin in a survival scenario? Probably not. In a post apocalyptic world, I would stay as far away from springs as possible. While not as fast to load/slower rate of fire than an M4, the Mosin, Lee Enfield, Springfield, heck any bolt action will be more reliable in the long run.

 

In the end, does the person/animal you're shooting at care if you can get 1" groups at 500m? no. If a gun can hit a standard dinner plate at 200-300m, it's good enough to do the job.

 

The fact that there is even an argument here shows how flawed the random bullet mechanic really is. An M4 is not more accurate than a Mosin. A Mosin is not more accurate than an M4. They both fire a piece of lead down a metal tube in a straight line. The difference is the shooter. Yes, a gun may have things that make it naturally more comfortable to shoot for an average person. But some of the best marksmen in the world were using a Mosin in all its wood-laden glory. Accuracy is about knowing your rifle. Range is about the bullet.

 

If you want the world to be sane to you, the other factors need to come into play. A Mosin is heavy, it will have a bit of sway, it should be found in whatever condition it was in (with or without a scope and/or compensator). An M4 is light, easier to aim, you can attach damn near anything you ever find. But at the end of the day, if you know the zero and when to pull the trigger, either gun will shoot exactly where it is supposed to shoot. Period.

[Judopunch 523]

Though weapon values will change, I am fairly certain that the spawn rate of all weapons is going to be drastically lower. You wont really be able to 'pick' the best one, but rather be thankful for what you can find.

[soulfirez 901]

Though weapon values will change, I am fairly certain that the spawn rate of all weapons is going to be drastically lower. You wont really be able to 'pick' the best one, but rather be thankful for what you can find.

Sounds like a reasonable idea seeing improvised weapons are also coming.. has no one noted that we are in alpha thus testing everything and strangely everytime there is a new weapon is it by strange coincidence that weapon becomes one of or the most common weapon found i think not....

 

every patch weapons seem to change both in spawn rate and in firing characteristics seems to me they are testing to well um get it right????

[Valadain 270]

Though weapon values will change, I am fairly certain that the spawn rate of all weapons is going to be drastically lower. You wont really be able to 'pick' the best one, but rather be thankful for what you can find.

 

Yes, though I expect it to be a short-lived experiment as people realize that it just concentrates power in the hands of those with the least morals. And they realize that melee combat in a first person shooter mode game is always going to be a terrible chaotic glitch-fest.

[Judopunch 523]

Yes, though I expect it to be a short-lived experiment as people realize that it just concentrates power in the hands of those with the least morals. And they realize that melee combat in a first person shooter mode game is always going to be a terrible chaotic glitch-fest.

You should see a weapon in my hands. It enables me to become The Harbinger of Justice, and the Absolver of Sin.