Weapon Balance vs "Realism"

[sabaka (DayZ) 70]

This forum has numerous M4 vs. Mosin vs. SKS threads, and even unrelated threads often get comments about M4 accuracy, or viability, or which gun to choose. How does this make any sense in a game with a premise of realism with respect to ballistics and weapon physics?

 

I admit I may be biased because I happen to own a Colt M4, but I just don’t understand how this can be a serious discussion in a “realistic” game. In many games with a variety of weapons the developers buff or nerf certain weapons to achieve balance, and if that’s the end goal here that’s certainly fine (there’s even a poll about it on this forum) but I’ve never seen anything posted to the effect that that is a goal. In the responses to that poll there are numerous comments about how each gun is situational, and in certain situations each gun is best, etc. This seems to be true in the current game.

 

-The Mosin was designed in 1891. It has an effective range of 500m, 800m with optics, a 5 round magazine, and a rate of fire of 10 rounds/min.

 

-The SKS was designed in 1944. It has an effective range of 400m, a 10 round magazine, and a rate of fire of 35 rounds/min.

 

-The M4 was designed in 1994. It has an effective range of 500m, magazines obviously are extremely variable (the game has numerous 60 rounders) and a rate of fire of hundreds of rounds a minute.

 

The M4 is 100 years more modern than the mosin, 50 years more modern than the SKS, and in use by modern militaries all over the world today. The only possible reason to carry one of the other guns in a real life situation would be ease of finding ammo or spare components (if you’re in Russia when society collapses carry an AK, America carry an AR-15, etc.) but that isn’t the case in game. Ammo and guns are basically equally easy to find. Nobody sensible should have anything but an M4 (unless roleplaying or specifically looking for a challenge) but the game doesn't seem to reflect that reality. Why is that?

 

Additionally, why would you carry a bolt action gun, knowing that some encounters may end up up close and personal and you may not be able to do anything about it? I own a Remington 700, beautiful optics, bipod, 7.62x51, most accurate gun I own, but if I had to live in a world like dayz and could only have that or the Colt it would be one of the easiest decisions of my life. The only exception to this is if you always play in a group and someone else has the M4, but for solo play it's really silly.

 

tl;dr The M4 is a modern military weapon. The fact that a modern military weapon is not categorically more powerful than antique civilian weapons makes no sense in the scope of this game and its quest for realism.

Edited February 9, 2014 by sabaka

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Don't rely on damage levels and accuracy at the moment, they are bound to change over time.

 

But, its always good to keep the discussion going, I too would favour the M4 as my general go to weapon, but that mosin does pack a heck of a punch no matter its age.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[gibonez 3633]

The way they handle weapons in standalone is horrific.

 

They need to just make the weapons as realistic and true to life as possible and if a weapon is deemed overpowered they can simply control it with the new loot system.

 

Real life has a way of balancing itself. In order to do this they need to completely redo the way accessories work.

 

no more

 

- Bipods affecting accuracy

- hand guards and stocks affecting accuracy

- compensators and flash hiders affecting accuracy

 

Just give the stock gun the same accuracy that it has in real life with its most common load.

Only allow attachments that are realistic and make sense aka no mosin nagant with a 2k dollar variable power optic.

 

Above all adopt weapon handling in the same manner that ACE does this results in realistic and satisfying gunplay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKG-x0lIEE

[frosti 2165]

 

The M4 is 100 years more modern than the mosin, 50 years more modern than the SKS, and in use by modern militaries all over the world today. The only possible reason to carry one of the other guns in a real life situation would be ease of finding ammo or spare components (if you’re in Russia when society collapses carry an AK, America carry an AR-15, etc.) but that isn’t the case in game. Ammo and guns are basically equally easy to find. Nobody sensible should have anything but an M4 (unless roleplaying or specifically looking for a challenge) but the game doesn't seem to reflect that reality. Why is that?

 

Additionally, why would you carry a bolt action gun, knowing that some encounters may end up up close and personal and you may not be able to do anything about it? I own a Remington 700, beautiful optics, bipod, 7.62x51, most accurate gun I own, but if I had to live in a world like dayz and could only have that or the Colt it would be one of the easiest decisions of my life. The only exception to this is if you always play in a group and someone else has the M4, but for solo play it's really silly.

 

Very, very good points.

 

In real life zombie apocalypse happening my weapon of choice from those would be mosin all day erry day becouse of reliability. Simple weapon, bolt action, perfect for living in da woods.

 

In game I will server hop until I find m4 in office building, becosue factors like dirt, jamming, weight etc. etc. does not exist, even value of my character life besides my gear do not exist.

 

All weapons besides m4 and eventually SKS are trash. That's sad and would be nice if something would be done about it.

 

Maybe by adding additional factors like weapon reliability or by making this poor mosin to be 1 shot kill or at least 1 shot uncoucious.

[Fear The Amish 40]

Well i own an SKS and my friend owns an M4 while. While he can put out more rounds down range then i can in a short period of time. My rounds will always hit almost exactly were i want them. For pure accuracy at medium range 200-300 meters the SKS is hands down a much better rifle. Also with the 7.62 x 39 is a MAN STOPING round, as opposed to the 5.56 which while yes will drop you takes a few more hits to take you completely out of a fight. This is exactly why we have these three guns in right now, each has a niche it excels at. If i am sitting on a hill providing overwatch i am going to want a Mosin with a LRS, and Bipod. If i am at Medium range covering a firing lane i want an SKS with a PU. If i am CQB i want an M4 with CQB settup. As you already pointed out your Remington is a much better choice for longer range fire in real life, just like the Mosin is a much better long range option in DayZ.

[kaix12 34]

Well in chernarus it is post soviet state, so SKS's are going to be way more common than M4's as they may still be used in second-line service by the armed forces. Also the Mosin is a better hunting rifle = more common in the poor-ish Farming/ heavily wooded country of chernarus.

 

Also the calibre pays a big role, the M4 lacks the accuracy of the SKS and the round doesn't hit as hard against un-armoured targets, I would much prefer the 7.62 as why would I need armor peircing capabilitys against zombies? 

 

Also Ammo is easier to find and the SKS/mosin is more reliable, I don't care about attatchments when I can't use the gun because I can't clean it due to not finding a weapon cleaning kit and using bad-grade ammo, meanwhile a SKS would last a lot longer without cleaning (Piston FTW)

 

Also M4's can make people use more ammo than they should if it isn't set to semi auto only, as people are likely to switch to full auto if there are zombies close up and just spray, semi-auto and bolt actions would make people more cautious due to not having the spray and prey power and slow down their fire rate, meaning they will try harder to make every shot count. Thats why I choose the SKS over the countless M4's I found, I didn't need to find mags which take up to much room, Ammo was easier to find, It made me use less ammo due to better power and accuracy and if Dayz had realistic weapon reliability, it would be way more reliable as well.

[gibonez 3633]

There is absolutely no situation where I would want a mosin nagant over an ar15 in real life.

 

If anyone has shot a mosin they would know its not the most accurate weapon out there my ar is far more accurate.

 

The only reason anyone would ever get a mosin is for the sheer amount of cheap ammo.

[Fear The Amish 40]

There is absolutely no situation where I would want a mosin nagant over an ar15 in real life.

 

If anyone has shot a mosin they would know its not the most accurate weapon out there my ar is far more accurate.

 

The only reason anyone would ever get a mosin is for the sheer amount of cheap ammo.

 

I have fired several Mosin's in my time and found them to be very accurate. I would rate them similar to a Lee Enfield or a Springfield when it comes to accuracy. There is a reason they were used as the go to USSR sniper rifle up until the 60's.

[SwarfwgaHead 45]

It really all comes down to the situation in which you're using the weapon, surely? I'd agree that the M4 is without doubt a more advanced and versatile rifle in real life, despite my general lack of enthusiasm for AR series weapons. And while not directly translatable, the same is pretty much true in game. The Mosin is just a more reliable and sure option when engaging over increased distance, and  the 7.62 doesn't mess around when it comes to dropping people dead. I'm not sure what you mean by "categorically more powerful", but the truth of the situation seems to be that the M4 is a very good all-purpose weapon, but the Mosin excels over greater ranges. I mean the only arguement for the Mosin being empirically more powerful kind of falls apart when you consider two, hypothetially identical, evenly matched players facing off over a <100m distance. The M4 will win out, barring luck, just due to the increased firepower it carries. But ranges 300m+ the Mosin will probably take the cake. As usual, it's more down to the person using the weapon, rather than the weapon itself. I don't think it's really applicable to say that the Mosin is "more powerful" than the M4 because they serve different purposes.

[frosti 2165]

It really all comes down to the situation in which you're using the weapon, surely? I'd agree that the M4 is without doubt a more advanced and versatile rifle in real life, despite my general lack of enthusiasm for AR series weapons. And while not directly translatable, the same is pretty much true in game. The Mosin is just a more reliable and sure option when engaging over increased distance, and  the 7.62 doesn't mess around when it comes to dropping people dead. I'm not sure what you mean by "categorically more powerful", but the truth of the situation seems to be that the M4 is a very good all-purpose weapon, but the Mosin excels over greater ranges. I mean the only arguement for the Mosin being empirically more powerful kind of falls apart when you consider two, hypothetially identical, evenly matched players facing off over a <100m distance. The M4 will win out, barring luck, just due to the increased firepower it carries. But ranges 300m+ the Mosin will probably take the cake. As usual, it's more down to the person using the weapon, rather than the weapon itself. I don't think it's really applicable to say that the Mosin is "more powerful" than the M4 because they serve different purposes.

 

How about we take mosin and ar15 on the trip to forest with rain and mud for few months, then we smash drop those weapons on the ground couple of times and then we try shooting?

[SwarfwgaHead 45]

How about we take mosin and ar15 on the trip to forest with rain and mud for few months, then we smash drop those weapons on the ground couple of times and then we try shooting?

I honestly don't know enough about firearms to know which would start to show faults first, but I reckon the Mosin would be much easier to clean/fix up afterwards :p I don't know how much the AR design has improved over the years, but some tales from their early implementation in Vietnam would suggest they don't hold up to well under long-term exposure to harsh enviroments.

I guess the only real way they could exoress this in game would be to have the Mosins condition degrade much slower, and maybe have cleaning kits be more or less useful depending on which weapon you use them on.

[gibonez 3633]

I have fired several Mosin's in my time and found them to be very accurate. I would rate them similar to a Lee Enfield or a Springfield when it comes to accuracy. There is a reason they were used as the go to USSR sniper rifle up until the 60's.

 

when I shot it  firing from a bench best we managed to do was a 4 inch 5 round group at 100 yards.

 

Then again we were not shooting match ammo or commercial ammo but bulk spam can surplus ammo.

 

4 moa out of a 1940s surplus rifle is pretty good.

 

The mosin is not a tack driver but it does the job great rifle .

[rickenbacker 190]

tl;dr The M4 is a modern military weapon. The fact that a modern military weapon is not categorically more powerful than antique civilian weapons makes no sense in the scope of this game and its quest for realism.

 

Three words: Cone of fire. This bullshit game mechanic has made semiauto and bolt action rifles more accurate than full auto weapons for decades now, and I wish people would stop using it.

[rickenbacker 190]

How about we take mosin and ar15 on the trip to forest with rain and mud for few months, then we smash drop those weapons on the ground couple of times and then we try shooting?

 

If you didn't clean them (or at the very least cleaned the bore) before firing, I'd expect both to fail. If you did the very minimum of maintenance, I'd expect both to work fine. 

[Celt (DayZ) 30]

Three words: Cone of fire. This bullshit game mechanic has made semiauto and bolt action rifles more accurate than full auto weapons for decades now, and I wish people would stop using it.

If they used sway/recoil, they wouldn't have to. Set the gun to semi auto and recover your aim after each shot and you're set. Full auto... well, you're going to be all over the place, but it's good for suppressive fire or panicked close-quarters fighting.

 

The M4 should definitely be a better weapon. It's got a decent effective range, and though its round isn't the most powerful, it can still do some damage. It's useful in almost every situation; close-quarters, it can be used like a submachinegun. At longer ranges, it can hold its own against full-size assault rifles.

 

It should be a lot rarer, though, and if you have one you should have to clean it and care for it thoroughly and frequently so it doesn't jam. It should be a high-maintenance, but potentially very useful, weapon. Same goes for most NATO weapons, honestly.

 

It forces you to make the choice: do you want a good-enough, low-maintenance durable weapon with relatively common ammo, or do you want to invest some time and effort into getting ammo for your high-tech military weapon and into cleaning it up after every fight?

 

The AK is the best of both worlds, really. I think that if durability was factored in, I'd choose the AKM over any other weapon. But it's all a personal choice; do you want to hunt players or just protect yourself from the hordes? Do you have the resources to keep your gun working?

Edited February 9, 2014 by Celt

[Celt (DayZ) 30]

If you didn't clean them (or at the very least cleaned the bore) before firing, I'd expect both to fail. If you did the very minimum of maintenance, I'd expect both to work fine. 

 

I'm not so sure about that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiXFyIbOZw

[Jack Dant 158]

 

tl;dr The M4 is a modern military weapon. The fact that a modern military weapon is not categorically more powerful than antique civilian weapons makes no sense in the scope of this game and its quest for realism.

But, realistically, modern military weapons are designed for maneuvrability and rate of fire. Certainly not cartridge power nor long range accuracy.

 

The 5.56 round sacrifices the stopping power and long range of 7.62x51 or 30-06 for lower recoil and rate of fire. This is because the military decided full auto was essential in the modern battlefield. At the same time, the M4 sacrifices some extra range and accuracy of the full length M16, because they decided they didn't actually use those, but a shorter weapon was more useful in urban and close range combat. How much do those assumptions apply to DayZ?

 

Anyway, how do you think it should it be more powerful? Stopping power? You will find plenty of discussion on how the 7.62 bullets have more stopping power in real life. Rate of fire is fine. Accuracy is wrong, but I have reason to believe that's just a placeholder until there's proper sway mechanics.

 

Guns are situational. The M14 was designed shortly after the SKS, and its technology is not that different. Yet it's been used in a variety of military roles. Snipers still use bolt action rifles that are not that different to a mosin-nagant. Bolt action design peaked with the Mauser 1898, and most "improvements" since then have been cost cutting measures.

[gibonez 3633]

Three words: Cone of fire. This bullshit game mechanic has made semiauto and bolt action rifles more accurate than full auto weapons for decades now, and I wish people would stop using it.

 

Absolutely funny how this doesn't require any of those bs methods of balance.

 

[Jack Dant 158]

I'm not so sure about that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiXFyIbOZw

Amazing video. But to be fair, they did make sure the barrel was clear before any of the tests. Even in part 2, after covering it in mud.

[Atheon 31]

Why is the M4 in the game anyway? Shouldn't it be the AK-47? 

[asgar 23]

There is absolutely no situation where I would want a mosin nagant over an ar15 in real life.

 

If anyone has shot a mosin they would know its not the most accurate weapon out there my ar is far more accurate.

 

The only reason anyone would ever get a mosin is for the sheer amount of cheap ammo.

let me guess...you are american...and your american media told you the mosin is inaccurate...and it has to be true since it's a russian rifle...right?

[gibonez 3633]

let me guess...you are american...and your american media told you the mosin is inaccurate...and it has to be true since it's a russian rifle...right?

 

Nope that is simply what the gun was shooting with the surplus ammo I used.

 

It has nothing to do with me being American or not heck there are probably more mosins in American homes than there are in Russian homes.

 

The simple fact is that it is a 100 year old rifle design a very robust rifle but its not a tact driver. Its a well made rifle that can do the job but from what I have personally shot it is not very accurate at all.

 

4 inch groups at 100 yards is satisfactory but nothing to write home about.

[gibonez 3633]

let me guess...you are american...and your american media told you the mosin is inaccurate...and it has to be true since it's a russian rifle...right?

 

After like 2 seconds of research you can see that the Mosin nagant is indeed not a precision rifle nor is it a rifle capable of the 1400m shots that are seen in dayz atleast not bone stock using surplus ammo.

 

http://www.thebangswitch.com/precision-mosin-nagant-on-a-budget-stage-1/

 

Read that article .

 

 

That is a 3 shot group at 100 yards. That is one massive group.

 

 

Massive 8 shot group at 25 yards.

 

The mosin is a fine durable readily available rifle but it is by no means a precision rifle at least not now in their current condition using old surplus ammo.

[Celt (DayZ) 30]

Depending on quality, a Mosin can range from pretty accurate to... not so much. They're pretty old rifles and they were built to outfit armies, not a handful of elite snipers. The Russians handpicked the most accurate of what they made for their snipers, but the vast majority were only battle rifles.

[frosti 2165]

I would not care about accuracy during zombie apocalypse. When weapon shoot ok at 200 meters then it's fine.

 

What matters is that the gun to require minimal maintenance to be able to shoot.