Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[27 others 102]

What you are explaining is an extremely complex direct solution to a problem that needs a simple indirect solution. Remember the mouse is a u-n-co-n-v-e-n-t-i-o-n-a-l analogue for translating your entire body and its mechanics.

 

I know. I dont think the devs will ever adapt 1:1 input, tho. Its just too convenient for a game like DayZ. The devs try to go as far away as possible from Cod etc. 

The solution i wrote is more of a compromise. 

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Yes that sounds quite difficult, but please understand that the mouse is an unconventional analogue which needs an unconventional (indirect) solution. Expansion of the reticle and dispersion is an acceptable solution.

 

Acceptable for whom? It's really odd when a person speaks in facts and absolutes when discussing something that's very obviously a matter of opinion and design aesthetic. 

[27 others 102]

 

Now strap 40 pounds of gear to your back, hold an actual weapon instead of just pretending to hold one, and then do the same. Observe that you can no longer "jump and spin" quite as effectively, that the turn takes longer and that the end of your rifle is absolutely out of control all over the place during this maneuver.

 

 

Yes. I actually did that. Those circumstances affect your movement. But they do not affect your movement as much as they do in Dayz.

This restriction actually makes it way harder to move, feels more clunky, and IS more unrealistic than raw input for a reason/goal that was not achieved.

While in raw input games you play like a super-strong ballerina on extasy, in DayZ you play as a physically impaired fat retard.

 

Mouse input absolutely needs improvement, but 1:1 raw input is inappropriate for DayZ. 

 

 

I think so too. 

Edited January 30, 2014 by 27 others

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Yes. I actually did that. Those circumstances affect your movement. But they do not affect your movement as much as it is in Dayz.

 

Right, which is what I said in my post. I don't think the current implementation is a good analogue for human movement. It is too slow at the moment and the behavior when you move "too fast" is really strange. But, I absolutely do not think the proper solution is to go to 1:1. Raw input in my opinion will not only feel incredibly unrealistic, it will look completely odd to see people move in that way from an observer's perspective.

 

Plus, there are enormous implications for gameplay. Expanding reticle or not, in close quarters the ability to spin 180 degrees in what is essentially an instant completely changes the dynamic of position and movement in combat. Right now it's a huge advantage to sneak up behind someone, or to engage them from the rear. That advantage almost completely goes away if people can correct their orientation with the flick of a wrist.

[sidwulf 69]

Acceptable for whom? It's really odd when a person speaks in facts and absolutes when discussing something that's very obviously a matter of opinion and design aesthetic. 

 

Modern first person shooters realistic or not often employ indirect solutions such as expansion of the reticle and dispersion (Can you not agree?) hence it appears to be an acceptable solution.

[sidwulf 69]

Right, which is what I said in my post. I don't think the current implementation is a good analogue for human movement. It is too slow at the moment and the behavior when you move "too fast" is really strange. But, I absolutely do not think the proper solution is to go to 1:1. Raw input in my opinion will not only feel incredibly unrealistic, it will look completely odd to see people move in that way from an observer's perspective.

 

Plus, there are enormous implications for gameplay. Expanding reticle or not, in close quarters the ability to spin 180 degrees in what is essentially an instant completely changes the dynamic of position and movement in combat. Right now it's a huge advantage to sneak up behind someone, or to engage them from the rear. That advantage almost completely goes away if people can correct their orientation with the flick of a wrist.

 

Consider the scale of Day Z and the freelook/third person views which already invalidate the advantage of sneaking up on anyone. Yes, mouse movement looks unrealistic with raw input but does it feel intuitive? does it convey that mind-character connection? In Day Z we want immersion and the added immersion of having 1:1 mouse input makes up for those unrealistic side effects.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[27 others 102]

Plus, there are enormous implications for gameplay. Expanding reticle or not, in close quarters the ability to spin 180 degrees in what is essentially an instant completely changes the dynamic of position and movement in combat. Right now it's a huge advantage to sneak up behind someone, or to engage them from the rear. That advantage almost completely goes away if people can correct their orientation with the flick of a wrist.

 

No that advantage does not completely go away, due to the element of surprise. If you see him spin around, shoot him, if you refuse, its your own fault. And i also dont think that realism should suffer because of gameplay-reasons like the one you describe. It has so many negative side-effects.

Edited January 30, 2014 by 27 others

[minime1000 78]

Now strap 40 pounds of gear to your back, hold an actual weapon instead of just pretending to hold one, and then do the same. Observe that you can no longer "jump and spin" quite as effectively, that the turn takes longer and that the end of your rifle is absolutely out of control all over the place during this maneuver.

 

Mouse input absolutely needs improvement, but 1:1 raw input is inappropriate for DayZ. It is not human movement and in my opinion it is major hit against, not for, immersion. One of the major reasons I never considered playing The WarZ was observing it's movement mechanics and how they mirrored games like Counterstrike where players feel weightless.

 

 

 

The goal is not only to simulate realism with respect to weapon accuracy. It is to attempt to simulate realism with respect to actual human bodily motion, and that's something "every other game" doesn't concern itself with. When I play DayZ, I want to feel like a person, not a weightless superhuman avatar.

The realism argument falls apart because the game is full of unrealistic stuff.

Secondly, how does a game know how trained I am in real life or how much experience I have with moving about in full gear and holding a firearm. 

 

If it was "REALISTIC" then why does my character know how to dial a scope or change gun stocks in a second? how does he know what a proper shooting stance is? and a whole lot of other things.

 

Just like 3pp say, it is after all a game. You cannot accurately convey real life movements into a game when all you have is a mouse vs whole body.

Edited January 30, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Window Licker 504]

Edit: some days it's better not to post at all

Edited January 30, 2014 by Window Licker

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Once and for all people! Download Mark C's mousefix. How many times do I need to say it. Download that shit. Follow instructions. Enjoy 1:1 mouse movement. End/thread

 

If you were all spending less time bitching and more time looking for solutions you'd have found this like I did many many weeks ago.

 

If you're going to say "once and for all" and tell people to stop bitching, post something that's relevant. I can 100% confirm that this registry tweak does absolutely nothing to the negative acceleration in DayZ, confirmed using a G400S with no hardware based prediction or acceleration whatsoever at 4000 DPI and 2560x1440 resolution.

[SyL3X 51]

@OP I support you all the way man. Don't pay attention to those who oppose your suggestion.

 

Most people here doesn't know about real gaming.

 

For example this Abbo tool Irenicus spamming all the time about mark's mousefix, though he doesn't know that in order to get this fix work you have to able to turn on raw input and a lot of other parameters. We can't even disable mouse acceleration. lol

 

I'm telling you dude this community destroys the game because of their ignorance.

 

Combat log timers, bad mouse response and a lot of other goodies destroying the game thanks to their suggestions.

[Judopunch 523]

I dont have a problem with the game taking a base and making it slower. But when I use alt to look around and move just a bit to fast, my head spins so fast it would snap my neck, than I have a problem.

[MakeThemListen 51]

I agree with OP. For everyone who disagrees, disregard guns at least for one second. Why does this mechanic apply to turning my head in free-look mode? Surely holding a rifle should not affect my ability to accurately snap my head in one direction or the other upon hearing a sound or noticing something in my peripheral, there is nothing weighting down my head...

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

@OP I support you all the way man. Don't pay attention to those who oppose your suggestion.

 

Most people here doesn't know about real gaming.

 

For example this Abbo tool Irenicus spamming all the time about mark's mousefix, though he doesn't know that in order to get this fix work you have to able to turn on raw input and a lot of other parameters. We can't even disable mouse acceleration. lol

 

I'm telling you dude this community destroys the game because of their ignorance.

 

Combat log timers, bad mouse response and a lot of other goodies destroying the game thanks to their suggestions.

 

 

Haha, what a self-serving pile of horseshit. "Ignore people who disagree with you and I'm super awesome and everyone else is totally lame." That you were able to type it out is one thing; that you actually managed to click 'Post' and walk away thinking, "Yeah, I totally told them," is downright hilarious.

[dsi24 227]

@OP I support you all the way man. Don't pay attention to those who oppose your suggestion.

 

Most people here doesn't know about real gaming.

 

For example this Abbo tool Irenicus spamming all the time about mark's mousefix, though he doesn't know that in order to get this fix work you have to able to turn on raw input and a lot of other parameters. We can't even disable mouse acceleration. lol

 

I'm telling you dude this community destroys the game because of their ignorance.

 

Combat log timers, bad mouse response and a lot of other goodies destroying the game thanks to their suggestions.

This was a clever troll, but the bolded gave it away.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Dsi1

[BL1P 252]

Needs looking at but your 1:1 suggestion is bad.

twitch gaming is 1:1 and is not wanted here

[PhillyT 554]

Look, Sidwulf, i understand your argument, but the thing is... This game, or atleast the Mod/Arma is a milsim and hopefully it stays true to it's roots.

That means it tries it's best to mimic real humans doing those thing you do ingame. No human in real life wields a 4kg assault rifle as nimbly as one wields a mouse, right? So we need to balance that out somehow. When you do wield a weapon, you do NOT jerk it wildly around etc. You handle the weapon in a precise controlled manner. Doing shit "real fast" only slows you down. The neg. acceleration tries to reward steady controlled handling and procure a penalty for hasty uncontrolled/unrealistic handling. Does this start to make sense to you? At all? The negative movement also rewards the player that keeps his cool and control in a tight spot and penalizes the the twitchy scared player.

Now... Ofc there would be BETTER way to do this i'm sure. For example heavy momentum to weapon movement would be best imho. Player trying to move too quickly in a fast situation would aim well past of his target again and again or spray blindly, which would produce a MASSIVE recoil if the gun is on the move while shooting etc. Hopefully we get there at some point but for the time being, we are stuck with this way of handling things. Understanding shit makes them easier to accept, wouldn't you agree?

Now..

 

 

Really? Check this out:

Does that look like BF4 to you? Does it look like a fucking Jackie Chan movie? No - People ARE sluggish and slow. These guys aren't wearing but a light gear, no pack and sure as shit aren't doing this the first time around. Flat clear space. I bet no-one's even keeping count of the score on target...

I agree that there's a lot work to be done with the movement at this point but you really should not compare it to your average FPS game since moving in those games is about acquiring a new target. In this game it's a tactical instrument you should learn how to use, as in most combat situations in real life.

Just... Use your head.

edit:grammar

 

Great.  So if my guy were carrying a light machine gun, he will be slower.  How about when my guy is standing upright with a tee shirt and jeans?  Moves almost exactly the same.

 

No, this isn't an effective attempt to simulate reality, it is a poorly designed engine trying to mimic human response.  We all know the ARMA engine is garbage, lets not pretend it is garbage with the intent to simulate reality.

 

I have time and training with pistols and assault weapons in tactical situations.  Nothing about movement in ARMA is accurate in terms of limiting movement.

[NicoBaloira1357 24]

I will disagree with you. I get along just fine with the mouse input as jank as it is right now. There are about 20 other things I would rather have fixed over raw mouse input fixes. (some of which are going to be in the next patch)

 

Zombie walling

Combat logging

Server hopping

The ridiculous FPS killing sun rays of doom

Wall glitching

Fall damage (or lack thereof sometimes)

Zombie AI (which won't come until much much later im afraid)

Footstep audible consistency (or lack thereof right now)

Wall "seeing"

The NE airfield hanger glitch

Data networking between players for PvP (I.e. when you see him die and when he actually died)

DE-SYNC ISSUES

 

These are some of the examples of stuff I would put above Mouse input right now, because mouse input I can adapt to. Most of this stuff is completely out of my control as far as game play is concerned. 

The mouse input might not be a deal breaker for you but I know that there are a lot of CS players around (including myself) and they rely incredibly on muscle memory to aim, so when I go to aim in this game it does the contrary ofd what I want to do and yes, I kinda get over it after a while, but then when I go back to CS I wonder why my aim is crap on the first couple of games, and no it's not enough to make me not play DayZ, but it is really uncomfortable to play that way, and if it is going to get fixed anyways, the sooner the better imo

[sidwulf 69]

Needs looking at but your 1:1 suggestion is bad.

twitch gaming is 1:1 and is not wanted here

It is impossible to simulate weighted weapons correctly using the mouse as a much simpler analogue to the human body. Any direct method would create unintuitive controls and would be a complex undertaking. The accuracy and suitability of such a method would also constantly be of discussion. The only solution is to find a method that accounts for the real world problem of weight/skill/strength in an indirect way. An example of this is the expansion of the reticle and dispersion while panning around the view port or moving. The mouse input should never be modified to work against the player as any direct method would be doing. The mouse is the interactive connection between man and machine and needs to accurately translate your unconventional hand movements into 1:1 view panning.

 

Day Z does not equate directly to twitch gaming because of 1:1 view panning. Consider the scale of Day Z and the open air world of Chernarus also keep in mind the characters movement speed including the Inability to shoot on the move. These aspects of the game drastically limit arena style gameplay.

Edited January 31, 2014 by SIDWULF

[sidwulf 69]

Original post edited for clarity.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I've been using CPL Mouse Fix and variations of CPL Mouse Fix since 2000. Every time I format, it's one of the first things I get going. Even with the mouse fixes, DayZ:SA still feels like you're wading through water. If you move your mouse fast, your character barely moves. If you move it slowly, he almost does a 180. It's terrible. Additionally, my in-game sensitivity is literally one sliver of the bar. If I move it up even an 1/8" it feels way too fast.

 

Worst part of the alpha for me. (So far.)

Edited January 31, 2014 by Grimey Rick

[minime1000 78]

Needs looking at but your 1:1 suggestion is bad.

twitch gaming is 1:1 and is not wanted here

Do you even know what twitch shooting means?

 

Guns are for CoD and and is not wanted here. Remove all guns from the game.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Needs looking at but your 1:1 suggestion is bad.

twitch gaming is 1:1 and is not wanted here

 

Says who? Do you think you're the guy in your avatar or something?

 

Personally I don't think 1:1 mouse movement would turn DayZ in to a twitch shooter, not with all the other aspects of the gameplay taken in to account (even simple things like moving around). I'd just be happy with a reduction in the negative acceleration but it seems like anything would be better than how it works now.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Ulfhedjinn

[wild_man 4442]

I don't think mouse need to be same like for every game and windows etc :huh:

 

feel of mouse movement in dayz is give weight to character :)

 

is make me need to adapt how I using mouse and change style but is ok for me this

 

I don't rely on muscle memory alone :huh:

 

when I play counter strike or CoD etc I like twitch style because is quick fix pvp games :D

 

but dayz don't need this, is deeper game with more realism feel and mouse movement is play important role here :thumbsup:  ;)

[Element47 2480]

i dont care about "twitch shooting"

i dont care what causes it - and i am not going to install a regfix on OS level for ONE SINGLE GAME, when i'm fine with all the other games.

 

fact is, moving - not combat - just moving, walking into houses, basically playing the game - is horrible with the current input solution. its nauseating. its inconsistently changing. it feels like playing while having drunk too much, you know, the point where every movement is untolerable and you just want to lay down, close your eyes and fucking stop moving.

 

and its persistent through every single second of gameplay, while all other issues are situational.

 

yes, IMHO this is currently the largest issue in the game.

edit:

feel of mouse movement in dayz is give weight to character :)

so why does it change from agile-like-a-ferret in the center of a room to immobile-like-a-dead-whale when standing 1m closer to a wall?

Edited January 31, 2014 by e47