Just 2¢ from someone who has used these weapons in his day job

[Robert Allison 33]

I am not saying that DayZ is a military sim or that the weapons need to be accurate to life. I am new to this game and just wanted to share some thoughts. 

 

M4A1

The M4 and M16 series weapons are pretty excellent all-around.  Nearly the most common-sense and ergonomic way for a warrior to engage point targets to ~500m, which has got to be farther than the vast majority of shooting in DayZ.  That being said, not sure why the in-game M4 lacks accuracy. Really not doing the poor rifle justice depicting it in such a way.  Even if the weapon was sitting out and not cleaned for a long time, the issue would be more jamming than accuracy.  I have also noticed that the Magpul stock seems to increase the accuracy of the weapon.  A stock is a stock and as long as it is not a wire or folding stock, it is really not going to have an impact on the accuracy of the weapon.

 

If Mr. Hall wants a less accurate weapon, he should probably go with an AK.  While the advertised range for these weapons is mid 300-400m, they aren’t very well made and the sights are pretty bad.  For an M16 series weapon, the user can adjust the sights any way he needs just by using a 5.56 round.  Not so for the AK series; to adjust windage (the left-right) you need a special tool that looks like a C block with a screw on it.*  Whenever I have worked with people who use AK series weapons, they have never seen the tool and their windage is usually way off. In fact, I have had to buy windage tools made in America, since AK users almost never have one.  In this DayZ “survivor” scenario I could see a bunch of people walking around with jacked up AK sights that can’t really shoot straight.  As for type, I don’t think you would see many AK-47s or AKMs. You seem to pick these things up at military bases so it would be an AK-74M or AK-100 series, or an AN-94 if the base housed a high speed Russian unit.  Still though, I am not sure these weapons would be as inaccurate as the M4 seems in game.

 

Mosin-Nagant

When using bolt-action rifles, you can just feel the accuracy. You can take brand new shooters to a range and you will see that they are often more accurate already with a bolt-action weapon, there are just less moving parts and they feel like more solid weapons. It could also be that people take more time when they know they have to work the bolt after the shot instead of just cracking off rounds.  That being said, the M91/30 is of fairly poor quality but it should be accurate to 90% of the distances people seem to shoot to in DayZ.  The real problem is not the weapon but the ammunition. 7.62x54 Rimmed ammo is of wildly different quality. Wildly. Even batches from the same company will shoot different and it is so damn dirty (corrosive) that you really have to clean well after extended firing. Many Eastern European lots will have cracks in the individual casings and you will get a face of hot gas.  Not preferred ammunition to be working with.  With the addition of the weapons cleaning kit in-game, this is one you would want to clean often.

 

“Magnum”

Haven’t used it much in game but seems pretty true to form. These large caliber revolvers are just solid metal and there aren’t many moving parts or much to clean on them.  As far as the in-game weapons cleaning kit, the revolver shouldn’t really need it. You would carry a revolver over a semi-auto pistol only if you wanted first shot reliability every time (or if you couldn’t get anything else).  Great to shoot and with crisp triggers, they are a nice kind of weapon.  I would pick a more specific name though, “Magnum” is just Latin for “more” and is a marketing term to denote rounds that are usually larger (normally lengthened instead of increased diameter).

 

FNX45

In-game I have heard it does not do much damage.  A .45 caliber pistol round is pretty serious stuff as far as pistols go.  I can’t really get a fix for how accurate the pistols in-game are, but these weapons are good for the last 10 feet. Anything beyond that is really dicey, especially if someone is not well trained.  I think this would help in a game where you don’t want guns to be too powerful (if that is a game design goal, I don’t know)

 

Primary & Secondary

The idea of having a secondary weapon is mainly to use when your primary goes dry and you don’t have time to reload or you are in very tight spaces.  However, in DayZ, the time it takes for me to reload seems to be quicker than pulling out a secondary.  I feel like this really defeats the purpose of the sidearm; after spending the time scrounging for multiple weapons, you don’t feel armed to the teeth, you feel like you have a series of individual weapons that don’t really work together as a system and are not interchangeable as the situation becomes fluid.  As long as your primary has a sling and your secondary is holstered or even in a pocket, you drop the primary as fast as possible and take out your secondary ready to shoot with a fresh magazine.  The M4A1 would most likely have the sling with it if you were looting it from a military base, while the M91/30 may not for a million reasons if you were looting it from a civilian area.  But still, I think faster transitions would add to the game.

 

Reloading

The “60” round M4 magazine consists of two 30 round magazines taped together…you would still have to release and reload the magazines.  Magazines larger than 30 rounds tend to have feed issues due to spring performance.  As far as Mosin reloading goes, the weapon allows you to reload rounds individually.  I haven’t used it much in-game but my buddy is telling me it treats everything as a stripper clip of 5. A stripper/charger is not needed for reloading the weapon and it does not have to be in a series of 5 rounds.  I would have to actually use it in-game to see what the exact problem is though.

 

X+1

The weapons with detachable box magazines in the game (M4A1 and FNX45) can carry an extra round.  You would load the weapon, cock it, and then place a fresh magazine in.  This gives you 30+1 (30 in a full magazine + 1 in the chamber) for the M4 and 15+1 for the FNX45.  Can make a difference.

 

 

* As an aside/off topic, the windage tool goes back to the original AK-47 and I think it is an interesting social commentary about the Soviet Union. The idea was that this tool would be kept at a central location (the armory) and the armorers would correct the windage before issuing the rifle. This is clearly a bad idea because windage can change (especially on something manufactured as badly as an AK) and you are putting your life in some armory bubba’s hands who has 500 of these rifles to get out the door. I don’t even know if Russian armories have co-located ranges so the armorers can test windage. However, this does centralize power in the chain of command, as you cannot get an accurate rifle without going through “the official process” of getting a weapon. Contrast this to the M16, which allows the user to adjust everything he needs on his own.

 

This is similar to the Russian method of designing early jet-fighter aircraft cockpits – contained within the body of the aircraft with low visibility. The pilot was supposed to rely on a central air command and control center to order them where to go and when to shoot. This obviously does not work well in a fast paced dog fight. The Americans very early on designed the bubble cockpit, raised from the fuselage with maximum visibility so the pilot can see everything around him and make informed independent decisions.

 

You can see how even for weaponry designed for the military, the Soviets did not trust their own people. There always had to be an element of control somewhere. The Russians decided to sacrifice some measure of effectiveness in order to subordinate the individual to the collective. The Americans took the opposite philosophical approach, maximizing the effectiveness of the individual. 

[applejaxc 2500]

The M4s are inaccurate because (and this is Dean's/the forum's justification not mine) somehow a less-than-pristine stock causes your bullets to fly at 30 degree angles. I've used firearms extensively in real life as well, and I agree that there is a lot of ridiculousness in DayZ (right now).

 

I would also like to see X+1 loading.

 

Edit after reading more:

 

I'm glad there's someone that's willing to criticize the "Master Gun" AK47. There's too many people that have been told that it's great and left it at that. It's crap, and the only situation it is any good in is to supply under-trained soldiers, who themselves decrease the already shoddy effectiveness of an AK47.

 

But that isn't the point. The point is, The AK47 should benefit the most from a weapon repair kit as it is very easy to strip and clean. The M4 shouldn't take these ridiculously significant impacts to accuracy which each level of damage.

The FNX is a beautiful gun chambered for a beautiful caliber from a beautiful company. It's rather underappreciated in DayZSA.

 

(How long until there are M1911As, 10mm pistols, and Russian shotgun-revolvers?!)

 

 

Edit after finding a picture of the DOG-1 12.5x32mm revolver:

 

OTS 22 9mm machine pistol? http://www.firearmsworld.net/russain/smg/ots22/z-2.jpg Russian anti-crime weapon?

Drotik 5.45x18mm? (Burst fire machine pistol or automatic; I can't remember) http://24.media.tumblr.com/71d6209f5bf37534e4762b653e2e3634/tumblr_mo0hidHRA81qdrno0o1_500.jpg

 

Or that one Russian pistol that fires 9x21 (I think?), that gets near-.357 performance out of a 9mm round? Designed to shoot into vehicles and through body armor?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Applejaxc

[wud 143]

like the chambering +1 thing
indeed we had that in othergames as well so .. 
agreed

[Scofflaw 73]

Trying to hit anyone beyond 100m with the M4 can be difficult sometimes.  I stopped using it, because even in full pristine, it's very unreliable for anything beyond short range.

[Leo Balzac 190]

Interesting analysis Robert. I must say that I've shot a ton of different 7.62x54R in both surplus (Chinese, Czech, Russian) and newly made (mainly Sellier & Bellot, MFS or Priv Partisan) and have yet to come across actual cracked casings. In terms of dirtyness, definitely the corrosive primers make some of the ammo "dirtier" but I personally have not seen a huge discrepancy between surplus ball ammo from different nations. 

 

You're bang on with the ammo accuracy though, certain grain bullets just seem to perform better than others, especially with different firearms. My 91/30 loves 165-175 gr ammo but my SVT fill have FTF malfunctions with anything less than a 203 gr (and this is with gas regulator adjustment). I'm just not sure how bogged down into reality we need to get here though.

 

Anyway, great input!

[enforcer1975 1111]

You should know that the AK series wasn't meant to deliver accurate fire but just volumes of lead towards the enemy right? It's basically treated as a smg with a powerful cartridge. Why else would they put auto before semi on the selector switch? On second thought if you look inside it can be changed if you do some adjustments ( not just a few tbh ).

Afaik soldiers are trained not to fully load their magazines in order for them to work properly. And why would you want to adjust windage on an assault rifle all the time, wouldn't kentucky windage work faster in the long run?

 

It seems they did a gamey thing on the stock if what you say is true. All the stuff you put on a gun is useless if the user is a DAU. While an adjustable stock could make it more comfortable for you to aim and shoot it doesn't justify better accuracy like they do in the cod style shooters. Maybe all your experience is just imagination because it's a game and it feels a lot different than actually holding a firearms and shooting. Throwing is a good example, while you have a perfect feel what you do IRL it's kind of like you have a muppet on strings and you try to make it move. And ranges for weapons are just numbers of what the weapon is actually capable to do, it all comes down to the shooter's skill in the end. One squeezes a few extra meters on a handgun the other one can't even hit the broadside of a barn with a shotgun. All in all i think the game has good balistics compared to "shooters" even if they are a bit off from reality, there are a lot of factores to be considered of and you already mentioned it above, not only the russians make bad ammo, every weapon can be picky about ammo even if it's of high quality. And some content of you post is quite biased imo especially in the end. You forgot the MiG 9 from 1946 and the MiG 15-19 which had bubble cockpits, how do they fit in your concept of total russian control? The russian doctrin is completely different from the western ones i think you left out some valuable information regarding that.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Enforcer

[-Gews- 7443]

Fun fact: all the M4A1s in the game, even with pristine Magpul parts, would fail to pass the military accuracy requirement... which itself is pretty lenient.

 

The exception to that is when using the magic bipods.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

AK-74M is already confirmed as coming. I'm hoping it will entirely replace the M4A1, if only from an authenticity point of view, but at least then any wildly inaccurate shots could be easily explained away with iffy sights 'n' stuff and it might stop the gun buffs whining so much about it.  :P

 

It'd be nice if no two rifles fired the same way too, so you'd have to learn the quirks (i.e always shoots low and right) of the rifle you have found/borrowed/pried off that cooling corpse. It would add an element of randomness to each weapon so that people have to learn the quirks before being able to squeeze off accurate shots at range. I guess that would depend on whether each weapon would have a unique ID and therefore unique variables or not.

[RebelCowboySnB 20]

I think the M4 in game has less range an accuracy than my AR-15 chambered in .22.

[Gugolas 228]

Always remember guys that weapon dispersion (and not only this) is likely to be changed, and maybe that will happen also for M4A1.

This just happened the last patch for the FNX45. Everything is a work in progress, it's too early to judge these non-core aspects, in my opinion :)

[Bits (DayZ) 3]

Biggest problem with sights on the AKs is sight radius; just too short for precise work.  I'd say they're good for MoM out to 200m, past that you're using The Force.

 

The biggest problem with M4s is they don't like getting dirty.  Save your cleaning kit for the M4, because the AK only needs a good rinse every thousand rounds or so.  :)

 

Every nugget was issued with a canvas sling.  It's not as good as an American '07 leather sling for support, but it's better than nothing.  Aside: Shooting supported with a sling seems to be an American thing, I've never seen or heard of other militaries doing it.

 

AK and nugget slings are intended just for carry.  If you want a fast transition to your pistol, either go Italian (throw it on the ground) or get an M4 with a single-point sling.

 

+1 loading (or lack thereof) doesn't bother me.  As I understand it, the game doesn't keep track of rounds in a mag, and a tactical reload will make the game lose the rounds in the mag being replaced.  I'd say fixing that would be more important.

 

Nugget quality (and ammo quality) can vary widely, but I'd hesitate to call a Nugget "fairly poor quality."  For what it is, and what it was intended for, I'd say it's a damned good rifle.  They are tough as nails, and nearly indestructible (search YouTube for "mosin torture test").  ComBloc ammo is dirtier in general than NATO, and the corrosive primers are kinda irritating... but all you have to do is spray it with Windex... or piss down the barrel.

 

When you scope your nugget, you have to load singles; the scope blocks the clip guide.

 

I've shot an FNX, but it was a .40.  I prefer my Para P-14-45.  I can ring steel at 100yds, and my personal best on Bianchi plates at 10yds is 3.81.  I have also missed plates at 10yds with a 12ga coach gun (funny things happen when you're on the clock and breathing hard).

 

 

You forgot the MiG 9 from 1946 and the MiG 15-19 which had bubble cockpits, how do they fit in your concept of total russian control? The russian doctrin is completely different from the western ones i think you left out some valuable information regarding that.

 

The early MiG (and Yak) jets were designed prior to the Russians developing their centralized GCI, which didn't come into play until after Korea.

[stielhandgranate 480]

I really hate the accepted myth that The M4/M16 series of weapons are more susceptible to cleaning issues than the AKM/AK-74 series weapons and said slav tech doesn't need maintenance when in fact they often fire corrosive ammo and require more detailed cleaning. I doubt anyone spouting such nonsense is old enough to have used a XM16E1 when such issues were valid. Not to mention that repairing or replacing a AK series weapon part like the barrel or fire control group is a major bitch compared to the M4. Dean Hall really fucked up for a former military man as his details on weapons are all wrong in regards to M4 performance.

 

"You should know that the AK series wasn't meant to deliver accurate fire but just volumes of lead towards the enemy right? It's basically treated as a smg with a powerful cartridge."

 

The AK-47 was never designed with inaccuracy in mind, it was one of the first "assault rifles" and thus expected maximum effective ranges weren't determined for a weapon in it's class yet. Also a Sub-machine gun and Assault Rifle fill two different roles.

 

"Why else would they put auto before semi on the selector switch? On second thought if you look inside it can be changed if you do some adjustments"

 

The idea was that a solider in the heat of battle would force the selector all the way down until it reached the semi auto setting. It does no benefit for a solider to waste all his ammo spraying and praying.

 

"Afaik soldiers are trained not to fully load their magazines in order for them to work properly."

 

Myth.

 

"And why would you want to adjust windage on an assault rifle all the time, wouldn't kentucky windage work faster in the long run?"

 

Because rifles are issued are zeroed to the shooter beforehand.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[stielhandgranate 480]

redacted 

Edited January 28, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[Kaydo21 0]

So great post btw. I have been around guns my whole life and have owned several variants or calibers of what is currently in day Z (AK, AR15, .357, .45, and 12 gauge). I completely agree with your argument about AK's and their sights. I myself would like to add a few things when it comes to in game features on this or future weapons.

 

1) Most AK's will not naturally accept modern Optics. You have to customize them a bit. Too have a top mounted RDS for example you need a side mounted bracket that connects to the lower receiver (this is one of several ways it can be done). It would be nice too see this item in the game so Ak's could accept the ACOG or RDS. AK's however typically have factory mounted Iron sights. So finding an AK means it will usually have usable (if adjusted) sights. I have found M4s without sights on the gun so that could be a pro/con type mechanic for the two.

 

2) Why cant we use these guns without the magazines? What I mean is say you find the FNX45 or a M4. You have no magazine but you happened to find some ammo for them. Why can't you single load a round? Its a pain in the ass and in game mechanics could make it take extra time while standing still. Its not impossible to think that if one has a M4 and a hand full of ammo with no magazines that he/she would just use it as a glorified single shot.

 

3) Secondary weapon drawing. This was already mentioned by Robert but from an in game mechanics aspect I have some suggestions. The pistol chest holster replaces the "Tactical Vest" Item slot. So when it comes to inventory the tac vest is a bit better. However an advantage of the pistol holster would be that you can draw your secondary much faster. Also later items could be added that give you a holster on the tac vest or traditionally on your hip.

[rybec 339]

Mosin-Nagant

...the M91/30 is of fairly poor quality

 

Wrong wrong wrong. A rifle that is poorly cared for is of poor quality. My old 91/30 from 1943 has been through many different hands before mine and they took less care of it than I do. With different suppliers of x54 I can still shoot fairly tight groupings at 300m with irons.

 

Primary & Secondary

The idea of having a secondary weapon is mainly to use when your primary goes dry and you don’t have time to reload or you are in very tight spaces.  However, in DayZ, the time it takes for me to reload seems to be quicker than pulling out a secondary.  I feel like this really defeats the purpose of the sidearm; after spending the time scrounging for multiple weapons, you don’t feel armed to the teeth, you feel like you have a series of individual weapons that don’t really work together as a system and are not interchangeable as the situation becomes fluid.  As long as your primary has a sling and your secondary is holstered or even in a pocket, you drop the primary as fast as possible and take out your secondary ready to shoot with a fresh magazine.  The M4A1 would most likely have the sling with it if you were looting it from a military base, while the M91/30 may not for a million reasons if you were looting it from a civilian area.  But still, I think faster transitions would add to the game.

 

A sidearm shouldn't be solely used as a backup. Say I'm in very tight areas with my 91/30 that still has its sling and I don't have my five meter long bayonet to stick on it and skewer some guy from across the room. I'm not going to use it at that time even though it's my primary. I'm going to switch to a handgun if possible. I'm not going to cycle through five rounds of my nugget and go "Oh, time to switch to my sidearm instead of throwing in another stripper clip."

 

Reloading

The “60” round M4 magazine consists of two 30 round magazines taped together…you would still have to release and reload the magazines.  Magazines larger than 30 rounds tend to have feed issues due to spring performance.  As far as Mosin reloading goes, the weapon allows you to reload rounds individually.  I haven’t used it much in-game but my buddy is telling me it treats everything as a stripper clip of 5. A stripper/charger is not needed for reloading the weapon and it does not have to be in a series of 5 rounds.  I would have to actually use it in-game to see what the exact problem is though.

 

The taped magazines need some work, I like the idea of having two taped magazines save one inventory slot as a bonus though.

 

X+1

The weapons with detachable box magazines in the game (M4A1 and FNX45) can carry an extra round.  You would load the weapon, cock it, and then place a fresh magazine in.  This gives you 30+1 (30 in a full magazine + 1 in the chamber) for the M4 and 15+1 for the FNX45.  Can make a difference.

 

I support having one in the chamber with a full magazine.

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

Great post!

I really agree with you "secondary and primary" part.

If you have a sidearm in a backpack it isn't really a side arm it's just a gun in a backpack.

But, what my idea is, is if you have the pistol strap on and the pistol hotkeyed, then it will become a side arm and you can quickly press the hotkey and immediately switch to it.

I would also like to the pistol strap to allow you to shoot on ladders, in trade of not wearing a vest with double the slots.

Edited January 28, 2014 by TEST_SUBJECT_83

[Bits (DayZ) 3]

Meh.  It's night on the server, no moon, can't see squat.  Guess I'll just camp here.

 

I really hate the accepted myth that The M4/M16 series of weapons are more susceptible to cleaning issues than the AKM/AK-74 series weapons and said slav tech doesn't need maintenance when in fact they often fire corrosive ammo and require more detailed cleaning. I doubt anyone spouting such nonsense is old enough to have used a XM16E1 when such issues were valid. Not to mention that repairing or replacing a AK series weapon part like the barrel or fire control group is a major bitch compared to the M4. Dean Hall really fucked up for a former military man as his details on weapons are all wrong in regards to M4 performance.

 

How about "...in my experience...?" 

 

I can't say that my experience is universal, but I have seen more ARs fail on the line than AKs. 

 

The problem with the original M16s was blamed on three things: the powder used in the cartridges (ball instead of stick), the lack of proper cleaning, and the lack of a chromed chamber.  That last issue exacerbated the first two.

 

Even with chromed chambers and shooting LC ball, I've seen ARs gum up, get cranky, and stop feeding.  You know it's time to hose it out with CLP when the bolt won't go back into battery.  Gets worse when you use a Ceiner (.22LR converter).

 

A friend of mine tried shooting his AR with a suppresor; after 100 rounds or so the gas tube was so clogged it wouldn't cycle.  He had to do a complete tear-down to clean it out.  Granted, he probably hadn't cleaned the gas tube properly for quite a while, but the suppressor only accelerated the failure.

 

Best policy for AR: clean it, clean it, clean it, and run it wet.  Then clean it some more.

 

Of all the AKs I've worked with, I've never had one fail to go "bang" when I pulled the trigger.  Dirty or not, wet, dry, ComBloc ammo, didn't matter.  They're so over-gassed that a little crud seems to make 'em happy.

 

I've built ARs from 80% lowers and AKs from blanks.  No argument about the ease of changing a barrel on an AR (especially vs an AK).  FCGs are same-same.

 

An AK is much easier to clean.  Pull the cover, pull the bolt, and hose it out.  An AR has too many nooks, crannies, and crevices; it's a PITA to clean.  If anything, an AR needs to be cleaned in detail, not an AK.

 

All firearms need regular maintenance to function properly, but not all firearms function equally well when they haven't been properly maintained.  AKs will take a tremendous amount of abuse before they quit, but an AR will not.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica 19]

Meh.  It's night on the server, no moon, can't see squat.  Guess I'll just camp here.

 

 

How about "...in my experience...?" 

 

I can't say that my experience is universal, but I have seen more ARs fail on the line than AKs. 

 

The problem with the original M16s was blamed on three things: the powder used in the cartridges (ball instead of stick), the lack of proper cleaning, and the lack of a chromed chamber.  That last issue exacerbated the first two.

 

Even with chromed chambers and shooting LC ball, I've seen ARs gum up, get cranky, and stop feeding.  You know it's time to hose it out with CLP when the bolt won't go back into battery.  Gets worse when you use a Ceiner (.22LR converter).

 

A friend of mine tried shooting his AR with a suppresor; after 100 rounds or so the gas tube was so clogged it wouldn't cycle.  He had to do a complete tear-down to clean it out.  Granted, he probably hadn't cleaned the gas tube properly for quite a while, but the suppressor only accelerated the failure.

 

Best policy for AR: clean it, clean it, clean it, and run it wet.  Then clean it some more.

 

Of all the AKs I've worked with, I've never had one fail to go "bang" when I pulled the trigger.  Dirty or not, wet, dry, ComBloc ammo, didn't matter.  They're so over-gassed that a little crud seems to make 'em happy.

 

I've built ARs from 80% lowers and AKs from blanks.  No argument about the ease of changing a barrel on an AR (especially vs an AK).  FCGs are same-same.

 

An AK is much easier to clean.  Pull the cover, pull the bolt, and hose it out.  An AR has too many nooks, crannies, and crevices; it's a PITA to clean.  If anything, an AR needs to be cleaned in detail, not an AK.

 

All firearms need regular maintenance to function properly, but not all firearms function equally well when they haven't been properly maintained.  AKs will take a tremendous amount of abuse before they quit, but an AR will not.

The M4 is usually depicted as a unreliable inaccurate weapon. Both, are incorrect. The AK47 IS inaccurate but is made to not have to be cared for or cleaned. U.S soldiers clean and care for their weapons so unreliability isn't as big of an issue as it seems. AR platform WILL fail more than AK47, but if its in the hands of someone who cleans their weapons with the newly added (Weapon Cleaning Kit) than they should experience a reward of accuracy and reliability. I agree AR's will not take as much abuse. This is why i think non-pristine parts on an AR should effect it more. BUT, the AR should be much more accurate, lighter, more customizable than the reliable AK. Just my thoughts.

[stielhandgranate 480]

The problem with the original M16s was blamed on three things: the powder used in the cartridges (ball instead of stick), the lack of proper cleaning, and the lack of a chromed chamber.  That last issue exacerbated the first two.

 

Even with chromed chambers and shooting LC ball, I've seen ARs gum up, get cranky, and stop feeding.  You know it's time to hose it out with CLP when the bolt won't go back into battery.  Gets worse when you use a Ceiner (.22LR converter).

 

A friend of mine tried shooting his AR with a suppresor; after 100 rounds or so the gas tube was so clogged it wouldn't cycle.  He had to do a complete tear-down to clean it out.  Granted, he probably hadn't cleaned the gas tube properly for quite a while, but the suppressor only accelerated the failure.

 

Best policy for AR: clean it, clean it, clean it, and run it wet.  Then clean it some more.

 

Of all the AKs I've worked with, I've never had one fail to go "bang" when I pulled the trigger.  Dirty or not, wet, dry, ComBloc ammo, didn't matter.  They're so over-gassed that a little crud seems to make 'em happy.

 

I've built ARs from 80% lowers and AKs from blanks.  No argument about the ease of changing a barrel on an AR (especially vs an AK).  FCGs are same-same.

 

An AK is much easier to clean.  Pull the cover, pull the bolt, and hose it out.  An AR has too many nooks, crannies, and crevices; it's a PITA to clean.  If anything, an AR needs to be cleaned in detail, not an AK.

 

All firearms need regular maintenance to function properly, but not all firearms function equally well when they haven't been properly maintained.  AKs will take a tremendous amount of abuse before they quit, but an AR will not.

 

Try using M855, Don't use .22 converters as they are junk, the gas tube won't clog with correct preventive maintenance, I'm an armorer and only had to change gas tubes when conducting a barrel swap. For all the talk of how great AKs are I've seen some shitty AKs built out of spec,misaligned sights,fail headspace checks or very vulnerable to rust, the only brand I see live up to hype are MAK-90s or Saigas. Contrary, I've seen beat to hell CAR-15s and M16A1s tear through magazines on full auto with no effort. Even an abused gun can be brought to working order with correct PM, unless it was a terrible gun from the start like some Centry examples or CMMG pot metal crap. Let me end in saying, yeah M4s can go down to lack of care, but this is preventible and AK pattern weapons are vulnerable to the same types of misuse and their ruggedness is often mistaken for invulnerability.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[Bits (DayZ) 3]

The M4 is usually depicted as a unreliable inaccurate weapon. Both, are incorrect. The AK47 IS inaccurate but is made to not have to be cared for or cleaned. U.S soldiers clean and care for their weapons so unreliability isn't as big of an issue as it seems. AR platform WILL fail more than AK47, but if its in the hands of someone who cleans their weapons with the newly added (Weapon Cleaning Kit) than they should experience a reward of accuracy and reliability. I agree AR's will not take as much abuse. This is why i think non-pristine parts on an AR should effect it more. BUT, the AR should be much more accurate, lighter, more customizable than the reliable AK. Just my thoughts.

 

Agree... mostly.  And I think we should probably be a little more clear on when we're speaking about the DayZ game vs Real Life .

 

I wouldn't say that the AR is unreliable... just finicky.

 

I'd say the AR is more accurate than the AK, and has greater accuracy potential at long range, but at "normal" engagement ranges, the AK does just fine, so it shouldn't matter.  With a modern optic, both will reach out to ~500m; at that range the AR will have a better chance of hitting, but the AK will hit with more authority.

 

In game, I'd like to see the M4 be more accurate and degrade faster than the AK, with a significant chance to jam if not cleaned.  The AK should be essentially immune to dirty affects.  Accuracy should not substantially degrade in either case.

 

Since DayZ is set in the middle of a zombie apocalypse, and resources are scarce, the M4 should be a really good gun when pristine, and a jamming POS when dirty and degraded.  The AK should be an okay gun from start to finish.

 

Aside #1:  I've seen two 5.56 SCARS, both had horrendous feeding and reliability problems.  It's a pretty gun, but I'd never own one myself.

 

Aside #2:  I don't enjoy shooting AKs as much as ARs; doesn't seem to matter where I grab an AK, I always burn my fingers.

 

Rule #1 of gunfights:  Bring a gun.

 

Rule #2 of gunfights:  If your gun goes "click" instead of "bang," you brought a club to a gunfight.

[Judopunch 523]

Remember the game takes from real life, it doesnt copy it exactly. The ranges and dispersion discrepancy's you mention are there for game balance. You could make the m4 laser accurate at 500m if you wanted to. But what if some players have trouble with a view distance at 500m? Is it a good game experience to be one-shot from 1000m, with absolutely 0 chance, because you needed to go to a pond, crouch, and hit the F key 30 times? In the game, why should anyone ever be able to hit something at 500M anyways?

 

I probably couldnt and I know how to shoot and have shot various types of weapons, should weapons infact be less accurate because the person firing them is an average jo? Its easy to move a mouse and hit a key, what do you do to mimic real life skill in firing a weapon.

[-Gews- 7443]

Remember the game takes from real life, it doesnt copy it exactly. The ranges and dispersion discrepancy's you mention are there for game balance. You could make the m4 laser accurate at 500m if you wanted to. But what if some players have trouble with a view distance at 500m? Is it a good game experience to be one-shot from 1000m, with absolutely 0 chance, because you needed to go to a pond, crouch, and hit the F key 30 times? In the game, why should anyone ever be able to hit something at 500M anyways?

 

I probably couldnt and I know how to shoot and have shot various types of weapons, should weapons infact be less accurate because the person firing them is an average jo? Its easy to move a mouse and hit a key, what do you do to mimic real life skill in firing a weapon.

 

[1] If someone has a trouble with view distance at a mere 500 meters they probably don't even meet minimum specifications and should find another game.

 

[2] Did you ever play the mod? Or ARMA? Because I'm not aware of many 1000 meter kills with the mod's super-duper accurate M16s. I'm not even aware of any at all.

 

[3] Where were all these people complaining M4A1s were unbalanced back in the mod? Oh wait... they didn't exist. They are a product of the new inaccuracy - some people don't like change, some people don't like being shot, and some people think anything Bohemia or Dean Hall types in is sacred and should not be questioned.

 

[4] If you want to argue for less accuracy you have to argue for less accuracy with every weapon in the game. Your average Mosin is not a veryaccurate rifle, your average SKS is not a very accurate rifle, you don't say the M4's inaccuracy is due to the player being "your average Joe" and then completely ignore that for other guns - what, he picks up some old bolt-action and turns into some kind of Daniel Boone shooting feathers off the Indian chief's head at 400 yards?

[jasher11 67]

From a novice weapon user i have fired 1 AK-47 and i shot 30 rounds that is all, your character in game maybe has a but more experience but i doubt they could easily hit targets at 200m i was hitting targets at50m with a bit of difficulty so you guys saying they can hit ~500m that seems a bit extreme for a beginner, i have a lot of experience with the L98A2 (SA80 variant) which is alright but with maintenance you would have no idea what to do unless told so

[Bits (DayZ) 3]

Try using M855, Don't use .22 converters as they are junk, the gas tube won't clog with correct preventive maintenance, I'm an armorer and only had to change gas tubes when conducting a barrel swap. For all the talk of how great AKs are I've seen some shitty AKs built out of spec,misaligned sights,fail headspace checks or very vulnerable to rust, the only brand I see live up to hype are MAK-90s or Saigas. Contrary, I've seen beat to hell CAR-15s and M16A1s tear through magazines on full auto with no effort. Even an abused gun can be brought to working order with correct PM, unless it was a terrible gun from the start like some Centry examples or CMMG pot metal crap. Let me end in saying, yeah M4s can go down to lack of care, but this is preventible and AK pattern weapons are vulnerable to the same types of misuse and their ruggedness is often mistaken for invulnerability.

 

I shoot whatever I have on hand... currently LC XM193.  Never had a problem with it.  Never had a problem with my Ciener, either -- it's the .22 ammo (which is the cheapest crap ever made) that causes trouble.

 

I'm fairly paranoid about the gas tube, so I probably clean it more than I need to (concession to shooting the crappy .22).  More than my friend with the suppressor, anyway. :)

 

I've seen some pretty nasty AKs, too.  Seen a few ARs that were crap as well.  Definitely more crappy AKs than ARs, I'll give you that.  I think that the AK design is more inviting and tolerant of crap builds than the AR.  Not just a persona thing, I think there's just something about a stamped receiver that says, "bubba," and a cheap-and-easy build is going to be more prevalent than something that requires more effort.

 

FWIW, my impromptu poll today of army CI-types resulted in a clean sweep in favor of the AK.  To wit: "As soon as we found a cache of clean AKs, we ditched the A2s" (this from a rag-wearing bearded type). 

 

Within the context of the game... expecting that resources are scarce and the vast majority of people won't know how to take care of a weapon properly... I believe that the AK is a better choice.  Just my opinion.

[SFRGaming 718]

This has mostly been discussed before. 

And I completely agree with you on the AK being fucking inaccurate as hell:

 

Barrel has no support causing it to shudder

Sights have very little distance apart

Loosely made for easier field stripping

 

The M4 really needs to change. And mil-sim or not, the weapons need to be realistic as hell as far as stats go. Because, for people like myself and a few other here on this forum, weapons that aren't true to their real-life capability really take away the authenticity.