Debating slow vs. fast zombies: A love letter to the undead

[SirToasty 2]

Hey there, part time forum lurker here.

 

I've been trying to gather information on what the official zombies are supposed to be like for the finished version of DayZ. So far the only things I've found on them are that the developers are planning on releasing more in future updates and a couple posts that explain they're akin to the 28 days later style "infected", which means still alive but hostile and unable to feel pain. Considering that they're supposed to be a major gameplay factor (when more are added) I'm surprised the issue isn't being brought up in more posts. As a fan of the zombie genre from all forms of media, that all support their own versions of a walking cannibal, I thought I’d throw this out there:

 

I want to see slow, undead, destroy-the-brain-to-kill zombies in this game.

 

Before you start hate posting against this idea, read my suggestions carefully and then give constructive criticism and ideas on how you think zombies should be in the finished product. Realism is also dealt with.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not at all in a position to know how hard any of this is to implement into an actual game from a developers standpoint, but this version of a zombie seems like an easy AI to create compared to enemies in other games.

 

Psychology and Biology

Let's get the basics out of the way

 

Zombies are by all definition "dead", in that they do not breath, need food or water or anything except brain function to exist. They do not feel pain. This also means they are able to stay under water indefinitely and are able to have limbs crippled and/or blown off. They have no interest in anything but finding and killing/consuming living beings. Zombies do not "bleed" as living organisms do but instead emit thick black ooze that prevents infection from blood splatter. A Zombie bite has a 100% mortality rate- it will kill then turn an infected host. Infection will only turn humans into zombies, bitten animals only die. Infected flesh is highly toxic and kills anyone who eats it. A Zed subjected to cold temperatures will slow and eventually freeze without “dying”, and become active once again after it thaws. A Zed that is lit on fire will not die or even slow down until the fire destroys its ability to walk or destroys the brain.

 

Zombies either randomly wander or stay completely still until visual or audio stimuli alerts them to nearby prey. They will then investigate the source of the stimuli until prey is located, in which case they will let out an audible moan to alert other zombies in the area and begin attacking the prey. If contact is lost with their prey, a zombie will wander towards its last known location until it loses interest or is attracted by other stimuli. A zombie has no concern whatsoever for its well-being and will walk off the edge of a cliff if it saw prey located on the other side.

 

Zombies do not run but 'shamble' towards its prey, increasing in speed when excited (close proximity) which can be described as a slow jogging.

 

Zombies are also known to wander around in packs, or 'hordes' (Already being implemented into the game).

 

How This Will Affect Gameplay

 

Having this type of zombie helps keep them a threat without being totally overwhelming (runners) and still manageable enough when looting and dealing with other players. Zombies should not be incredibly dangerous unless you play stupidly or they come at you in numbers. Headshots also effectively make every zombie a walking tank unless you aim for the weak spot, eliminating the option for “spray and pray”. In my opinion being surrounded by zeds would be a lot more challenging and rewarding if you're aiming instead of firing in a zombie’s general direction and watching it drop. This would separate experienced marksmen from unexperienced players.

 

These types of zombies will also affect bandits and working together. Players will have to weigh the consequences of firing at another player depending on the amount of Zeds in the area that would be alerted. Working in groups is a more viable option for players to clear out highly infested areas and defending outposts, while keeping it a danger to travel in large groups and convoys that would attract attention. Remember, just because a Zed loses sight of you doesn’t mean is still can’t hear the sound of you running or whatever vehicle you happen to be travelling in, and will still head in your last know direction. Hordes will also allow players to “herd” Zeds to a player’s base, making for some very interesting gameplay.

 

Note: While typing this I’ve realized a lot of these instances can also be applied to the concept of a “running zombie”, albeit at a faster pace. The purpose of “slow/headshot zombies” is to keep the game at an even pace while still being a challenging enemy. It’s only a suggestion and is open to fresh ideas.

 

This will also make projectile weapons (crossbow, bow and arrow, high powered slingshot), silencers, and hand to hand combat more desirable. It will make guns that switch between semi-auto and auto fire highly desirable in order to deal with both accurate head shots on Zeds and spraying down players.

 

But Muh Realisms

 

The idea of a zombie apocalypse is not a realistic concept. Yes there are diseases that exist in real life that closely resemble the symptoms of a zombie. But a hyper aggressive cannibalistic disease that makes you immune to pain? No. Not yet, at least. Realism aside, DayZ is still a game, and the main enemy of a game has a dramatic impact on how it is played. What is and what should only be realistic in DayZ is the world and how the player reacts to it. Zombies are there because zombies.

 

Besides, do you expect me to believe 1000+ infected humans can survive more than a week in a world where thinking players are supposed to have a hard time without starving or freezing to death? Undead, at least in this instance, makes more sense and is much more interesting.

 

Last Thoughts

There is a whole world of zombie fiction out there to draw inspiration from, but most of these concepts are largely based on both the Walking Dead series (comic and TV) and the World War Z book (the movie butchered just about everything in the book) which in my opinion explains in great detail exactly what a zombie should be and the tactics against fighting them (ex. RS (reinforced square) formation). I highly suggest you at least look into how World War Z (book) explains their concept of a zombie, I found it extremely interesting.

 

[dudemaster 4]

i would much prefer slow zombies if they were handled in the classic style:  

 

- dumb and helpless, almost pitiful (as opposed to feral and menacing, making it easier to hate and kill them)

- unrelenting, no losing them through line of sight.  Each zimbler would simply follow you until one of you died, period.  Any lead you got on them or shelter you found would merely delay the final conclusion of which one of you ended up dying.  

- strength in numbers is worth more than a kill count.  The more zimbletons the less effective your shelter.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think adequate bandwidth or personal computing power exists to make this feasible, and especially not in the arma2 engine.  Still, we can dream.

Edited January 23, 2014 by dudemaster

[Shodex 15]

I don't agree with them never losing you, that's unrealistic. But the shambler makes for a more interesting game than the runner. The zombie isn't the meat and potatos of DayZ, we all know this. It's more the gravy, but you don't want too much gravy. Slow zombies aren't a test of skill, they aren't an immediate threat. It's a battle of attrition. They'll attack in droves, and never lessen in numbers. You can outwit them, outrun them, outgun them, out maneuver them. But you can NEVER outnumber them, and thats what makes them scary. It's not the mad dash through the city, it's the slow wait as they shamble their way up the stairs and into the room you're trapped in.

[King of kong 1117]

Feral fast ones FTW. Slow zombies just don't provide the same scare/fear factor. I find the fast ones to be much more believable. Considering slow "Zombies" are too slow and stupid, it would be impossible for them to destroy the Chernarussian Army. Slow ones don't pose a threat in rural environments. You wouldn't be as frightened by a sudden moan as you would a yell of rage. You could simply weave between them and jog away. Fast zombies provide a believable and more frightning experiance. These are insane people. Not mentally retarded old men. Please refer to this video. If those were slow zombies the group would be out of that house in less than 5 Mins, safe n' sound

I Think DayZ should keep these ones because not many games actually go for them.  Fast zombies fit massive rural places, and it feels more tense getting ruhed in a city

 

[King of kong 1117]

I don't agree with them never losing you, that's unrealistic. But the shambler makes for a more interesting game than the runner. The zombie isn't the meat and potatos of DayZ, we all know this. It's more the gravy, but you don't want too much gravy. Slow zombies aren't a test of skill, they aren't an immediate threat. It's a battle of attrition. They'll attack in droves, and never lessen in numbers. You can outwit them, outrun them, outgun them, out maneuver them. But you can NEVER outnumber them, and thats what makes them scary. It's not the mad dash through the city, it's the slow wait as they shamble their way up the stairs and into the room you're trapped in.

That doesn't apply in DayZ, because no one gives a fuck about how many there are, fast zombies still outnumber, they make a tense and believable game. Wars of attrition would be boring as shit, no one would give a crap because they wouln't need to fight. Because this isn't real life so those things don't apply

[akpe 36]

Hello all!

SirToasty, slow zombies, the kind introduced by Romero and also presented by Brooks on his books (judging by your biological analysis you're a fan), were meant to provide social commentary on us, in essence those movies are about humans, not zombies. That's why I personally think they are much more interesting than runners. 

 

However for DayZ, especially in Alpha with very few zombies (I haven't played the mod), making them slower would defeat any element of fear.

 

If somewhere down the road the devs manage to implement hordes of hundreds of zombies, then yes, the slow/stumbling type would probably be much better and make the game more balanced. Imagine having to cross a field with fifty zombies scattered around, with no alternative route, or having to scavenge a small city with a hundred zombies walking around. Wouldn't that be much more challenging and possibly more dangerous for a well armed crew than, let's say, ten to twenty runners? With numbers so high, it's not about their speed any more. You also have to consider ammo, different routes, risk (engaging/avoiding) versus reward (scavenging/starving) different strategies, I believe it would be much more interesting.

 

But, until hordes with huge number of zombies appear (possibly won't happen at all), I'm pretty much happy with the way DayZ SA presents them.

 

A bit offtopic, but biologically speaking, when zombies are presented as dead people (and not living, infected organisms like 28 Days/Months Later), I believe the slow, slouching type is much more "realistic", considering tissue and muscle necrosis, disintegration and whatnot. The Zombie Survival Guide by Brooks provides interesting information on this subject.

[Demoth 366]

That doesn't apply in DayZ, because no one gives a fuck about how many there are, fast zombies still outnumber, they make a tense and believable game. Wars of attrition would be boring as shit, no one would give a crap because they wouln't need to fight. Because this isn't real life so those things don't apply

Runner zombies are good for games where there are fewer zombies. Shamblers are good for games with lots of zombies.

A shambler is good because people tend to underestimate them until they swarm you and you trap yourself.

Runners are hard to shake, and you don't want to tango with them too long because more than three will murder you.

In a game like DayZ, having hordes of runners will spell certain death for anyone who runs into them except for someone with a $5,000+ machine. Even then, you'll probably still die unless you have an assault rifle with a bottomless mag.

In other words, making hordes of runners won't make this fun to play, it will make it unplayable.

[Demoth 366]

P.S. A good compromise would be to have the majority of zombies shamblers and sprinkle in some runners. That way if you don't separate the runners, by the time you deal with them you'd be surroundedm

[hypermoon 75]

I want to see lots of zombie variety but I want alot of them to run, and fast. Maybe we should have a poll to see what people prefer if it hasn't been done already. I just watched 28 weeks later and I really love the running zombies so much more than the slow zombies from like a resident evil. The dead should pose a big threat. If I look ahead and see a town with zombies in it, I should be worried about that.

 

I want to get chased by the zombies, that will never happen if they are slow and boring. They need to haul ass and put pressure on. Make u run into buildings and board them up. Move fast so they are difficult to shit in the head.

[BattleFairy 27]

lets use the cinema for a moment as example

 

 

the slow classic would support Team work so much....and think about when we can loot zombies!

you see nice teamwork, and alot of ammo is used to kill zombies and not the next best guy

 

and here the fast ones

you heard the man........free for all, no Team work,kill em all......sad

[Jhunt7507 29]

I just want zombies that can't see/run through walls

[cj14 189]

Resident Evil 1,2,4 kinda zombie (I mean the zombies...not the Tyrants or Lickers or all the other bullshit)

[blackberrygoo 1416]

Fast zombies !!! But not as fast as the ones from 28 days / weeks , just a bit slower to make it a balance o playable and challenging .