How to fix KoS and banditry with this great system

[phoboss 224]

You can't! Because it's not broken. And you can't fix whats not broken.  :P

 

Ok sorry for the baiting thread title, but since I already have you here, I would greatly appreciate if you took 5 minutes and read this post. 

 

For the lazy: The short version of this post is, I don't believe banditry is a problem that needs ANY kind of fixing or a system to change it in any way. I do however believe that KoS is a problem in DayZ and it should be addressed. Not with any kind of sanity or conscience system or what ever else has been suggested here on the forums. But simply through the necessity of teamplay and the need to actually think before using a firearm (on another player)

But KoS does harm the game because it leaves a lot to be desired. Human interaction being one of them. 

 

 

But let me explain. 

 

What is a bandit? In my opinion a bandit is someone who plays the game for PvP purposes, who likes to fight against other players and who kills others for their gear. He stalks and observes his victims and awaits the perfect moment for an attack.

 

KoS, obviously, stands for Kill on sight. Which means a KoSer is someone who kills every other player he sees for no reason other then the killing itself.

 

If these "definitions" are 100% accurate or correspond with your idea of the two shall be irrelevant for the sake of the argument and this thread. Please continue reading. 

 

Because every suggestion about a bandit/hero or a sanity/conscience system is answered with the almighty "realism card", I will do the same.

 

Of course we have to take the realism with big grain of salt, because, ... well, zombies aren't real. But this is a game about a zombie apocalypse. So everything else (aside from the zombies) is supposed to be as close to the real world as possible. 

 

With the argument of realism in mind it becomes obvious that banditry is not a problem in the game. Because in real life bandits exist. Bad people do bad things! And if you take into account that everyone's life is in danger, people become ruthless pretty fast. Its kill or be killed. 

(edit: Also once the "combatlog-protection" gets implemented, it gets more likely that bandits will start robbing people instead of killing them)

 

BUT there are also things called empathy, compassion, sympathy and a conscience that most people, even in a apocalypse have. So while there are a lot of bad and crazy people out there, people also do good things and help each other. They bond and try to survive together.

 

Which makes KoS totally unrealistic! Because even under the most harsh circumstances, the amount of people who'd run around killing every other person they see would not be this high. You'd try to avoid contact with people you don't know instead of killing them, simply because your conscience would rob you of your sleep if you killed 30 or more people.

 

The big problem on the forums right now is, that people try to battle banditry and KoS with the same system. Which obviously won't work for two reasons. First, Like I said, banditry is not a problem, its realistic and has a place in the game. And secondly, banditry and KoS are not the same, thus can't be "fixed" with the same system. 

 

As I mentioned before, the most common suggestions is a bandit/hero system like in the early days of the mod or like DayZ Origins has. This can pretty easily be countered with the "realism card", because in real life you could never spot a good or bad person by their looks. Also this would remove one of the great new things about the SA, clothing diversity. And it would remove the possibility of lying and backstabbing people. Because if they knew beforehand who they're dealing with, you could never get close enough to maybe steal from them or something like that.

 

edit: Also some other points have been made, that stuff like loot respawning isn't realistic and that it needs to be there to facilitate gameplay. That is true, but loot respawns for everyone. Thus facilitates everyone's gameplay equally. A bandit/hero system would not facilitate everyone's gameplay the same way. It would favor the heroes more than the bandits. That is another reasons why this is not a desirable solution. 

 

The other suggestions is the sanity/conscience system. Which would work in the way that your conscience kicks in after you kill someone. This is not a bad idea in theory, because it has a certain level of realism to it. Like I said, most people have a conscience and killing countless people would make them go insane. So while this wouldn't necessary be a bad idea to counter all the KoSing, it would also punish the people who chose to play as bandits (in the way I described at the top). So this won't work either.

 

So where does that leave us and what do I suggest?

 

Well again, for me, banditry does not need fixing. In the current state bandits are the only real threat players face and they have a place in the game. Which brings me to how I think KoS can and should be fixed. (edit: Of course you can't really "fix" KoS/banditry because they're not "broken" in a traditional sense but like I mentioned before, I think KoS got way out of hand and needs to be addressed. See below for more details as to how I believe it can be addressed.)

 

Like I said earlier, KoS can only be "fixed" fought by making the game harder, forcing people to play together and thinking about every shot they take. This means, zombies come from all around town when they hear a gun shot, basically making any shot inside a city a death warrant if your alone. A medical system that relies on a second person to help you (even more than it does now). Make food and water unevenly distributed, so that you actually have a reason to at least try and trade with other players. And a lot of other stuff to make human interaction actually valuable.

(edit: Also making your life more valuable will help a lot. Because if you have a broken leg and you need someone else to help you fix it, you'd usually just suizide. But if your life has more value than your items, you'd try and find help. How this would actually get implemented is another story. Dean talked about the possibility of your character getting better at certain things over time, thus making your char more than just gear. And I think this would help a lot. Because if I'm about to be held up by some bandit and I know my gear is gone either way, I'd still try to fight my way out of it, rather than just giving up. But if I have more to lose than just gear, I might way my options first.)

 

So this being an early access alpha and Dean being the guy he is, I have complete faith that the KoS Problem will get resolved over time. 

 

In the end this isn't so much a suggestion as an attempt to put an end to all this whining and discussing about this topic. Because a lot of players, especially new ones, can't quite understand why the veterans respond to their ideas, about sanity-, morality-, or banditsystem, in the way they do. 

 

If you're still reading, thanks for your time, and feel free to refer every person who thinks he has the ultimate solution to a problem that isn't really a problem to this thread :D

 

Also I appreciate any form of constructive criticism.

 

edit: I also made a thread about a possible hero/bandit system that would basically be implemented by the players themselves. It's just a rough outline at the moment. But I'd appreciate your input. http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/165503-herobandit-system-made-by-the-players/

Edited January 21, 2014 by phoboss

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

Was going to say, the only way to 'fix' KOS is for Dean to go into the code and turn OFF PVP (everyone on one team, Friendly Fire:off)

[LegitOldSchool 261]

What would us good guys have to do without bandits to kill? HEROES NEED LOVE TOO!

Edited January 16, 2014 by EchoZeero

[svisketyggeren 662]

Any particular reason why mods dont merge all these KOS threads?...daily ppl make new threads about the KOS topic. Its getting annoying and its cluttering up the forum.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Yeah! OP needs to suck it up and deal with the KOS situation. Stop cluttering up our forums phoboss!

 

 

 

 

 

;)

[phoboss 224]

Any particular reason why mods dont merge all these KOS threads?...daily ppl make new threads about the KOS topic. Its getting annoying and its cluttering up the forum.

You obviously have not read the post, (for which I don't blame you, its a lot of text, and I usually don't read posts that long), so do me a favor and read the first and last couple of sentences ;)

[Shogun_1 3]

You can't! Because it's not broken. And you can't fix whats not broken.  :P

 

Ok sorry for the baiting thread title, but since I already have you here, why don't you continue reading.

 

For the lazy: The short version of this post is, I don't believe banditry is a problem that needs ANY kind of fixing or a system to change it in any way. I do however believe that KoS is a problem in DayZ and it should be addressed. Not with any kind of sanity or conscience system or what ever else has been suggested here on the forums. But simply through the necessity of teamplay and thinking before firing a weapon.

But KoS does harm the game because it leaves a lot to be desired. Human interaction being one of them. 

 

 

But let me explain. 

 

What is a bandit? In my opinion a bandit is someone who plays the game for PvP purposes, who likes to fight against other players and who kills others for their gear. He stalks and observes his victims and awaits the perfect moment for an attack.

 

KoS, obviously, stands for Kill on sight. Which means a KoSer is someone who kills every other player he sees for no reason other then the killing itself.

 

If these "definitions" are 100% accurate or correspond with your idea of the two shall be irrelevant for the sake of the argument and this thread. Please continue reading. 

 

Because every suggestion about a bandit/hero or a sanity/conscience system is answered with the almighty "realism card", I will do the same.

 

Of course we have to take the realism with big grain of salt, because, ... well, zombies aren't real. But this is a game about a zombie apocalypse. So everything else (aside from the zombies) is supposed to be as close to the real world as possible. 

 

With the argument of realism in mind it becomes obvious that banditry is not a problem in the game. Because in real life bandits exist. Bad people do bad things! And if you take into account that everyones life is in danger, people become ruthless pretty fast. Its kill or be killed. 

 

BUT there are also thigns called empathy, compassion, sympathy and a conscience that most people, even in a apocalypse have. So while there are a lot of bad and crazy people out there, people also do good things and help each other. They bond and try to survive together.

 

Which makes KoS totally unrealistic! Because even under the most harsh circumstances, the amount of people who'd run around killing every other person they see would not be this high. You'd try to avoid contact with people you don't know instead of killing them, simply because your conscience would rob you of your sleep if you killed 30 or more people.

 

The big problem on the forums right now is, that people try to battle banditry and KoS with the same system. Which obviously won't work for two reasons. First, Like I said, banditry is not a problem, its realistic and has a place in the game. And secondly, banditry and KoS are not the same, thus can't be "fixed" with the same system. 

 

As I mentioned before, the most common suggestions are a bandit/hero system like in the early days of the mod or like DayZ Origins has. This can pretty easily be countered with the "realism card", because in real life you could never spot a good or bad person by their looks. Also this would remove one of the great new things about the SA, clothing diversity. And it would remove the possibility of lying and backstabbing people. Because if they knew beforehand who they're dealing with, you could never get close enough to maybe steal from them or something like that.

 

The other suggestions is the sanity/conscience system. Which would work in the way that your conscience kicks in after you kill someone. This is not a bad idea in theory, because it has a certain level of realism to it. Like I said, most people have a conscience and killing countless people would make them go insane. So while this wouldn't necessarly be a bad idea to counter all the KoSing, it would also punish the people who chose to play as bandits (in the way I described at the top). So this won't work either.

 

So where does that leave us and what do I suggest?

 

Well again, for me, banditry does not need fixing. In the current state bandits are the only real threat players face and they have a place in the game. Which brings me to how I think KoS can and should be fixed.

 

Like I said earlier, KoS can only be "fixed" fought by making the game harder, forcing people to play together and thinking about every shot they take. This means, zombies come from all around town when they hear a gun shot, basically making any shot inside a city a death warrant if your alone. A medical system that relies on a second person to help you (even more than it does now). Make food and water unevenly distributed, so that you actually have a reason to at least try and trade with other players. And a lot of other stuff to make human interaction actually valuable.

 

So this being an early access alpha and Dean being the guy he is, I have complete faith that the KoS Problem will get resolved over time. 

 

In the end this isn't so much a suggestion as an attempt to put an end to all this whining and discussing about this topic. Because a lot of players, especially new ones, can't quite understand why the veterans respond to their ideas in the way they do. 

 

If you're still reading, thanks for your time, and feel free to refer every person who thinks he has the ultimate solution to a problem that isn't really a problem to this thread :D

 

Well said.  Hell, I just started DayZ last night and understand "what`s up". The fact is, if society really did breakdown and humanity was brought to it`s knees due to a bacteria, virus, war, whatever, there would be a good portion of the population that would "turtle up" and guard what is theirs with lethal force.  

 

I would even bet dollars to doughnuts that quite a few people would go out of their way to kill others for supplies.

 

Not that I`d participate in wanton violence or kos "fun", but in this style of game, you have to kinda expect it.

 

You got my beans.

 

Shogun_1 

[phoboss 224]

Well said.  Hell, I just started DayZ last night and understand "what`s up". The fact is, if society really did breakdown and humanity was brought to it`s knees due to a bacteria, virus, war, whatever, there would be a good portion of the population that would "turtle up" and guard what is theirs with lethal force.  

 

I would even bet dollars to doughnuts that quite a few people would go out of their way to kill others for supplies.

 

Not that I`d participate in wanton violence or kos "fun", but in this style of game, you have to kinda expect it.

 

You got my beans.

 

Shogun_1 

Thats basically what I meant by saying "banditry is absolutly realistic and has a place in the game". Watch the movie "The Road", it's sickening what people do to each other. But you don't see them killing each other for fun, at least not in the amount it happens in DayZ. They do it to survive! And thats a very different thing.

[spartanxapathy 203]

Maybe there's nothing wrong with the game, maybe there is something wrong with the community... :o

[phoboss 224]

Maybe there's nothing wrong with the game, maybe there is something wrong with the community... :o

I'd say it's the game, because it doesn't punish death enough and rewards survival to little. But that will come, give it time. The players just adapt to the games mechanics, and right now, KoS is the easiest way playing the game. If that changes, then so will the players.

[svisketyggeren 662]

You obviously have not read the post, (for which I don't blame you, its a lot of text, and I usually don't read posts that long), so do me a favor and read the first and last couple of sentences ;)

 

That is correct...I just saw KOS KOS KOS and though "god damnit not again, ill make post about this and chaange the world...ppl will remember me as the guy that ended the KOS threads on dayz forum"

[Mcleane 24]

Very nice thread, I just hope all those new people to Day Z who make a forum account just to come and moan about KOS come and read this first just to set some things straight for them. also I am really surprised at how many new people are now playing this game I have nothing against noobs as at some point or other we are all noobs to a game but the new players that are coming to Day Z need to lower their expectations somewhat.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

KoS won't be a problem if they make weapons and ammo scarce. People wwould be less reluctant to shoot someone for fear of wasting ammo with nothing to gain

Edited January 16, 2014 by Caboose187

[phoboss 224]

KoS won't be a problem if they make weapons and ammo scarce. People wwould be less reluctant to shoot someone for fear of wasting ammo with nothing to gain

I don't think ammo will ever be that rare, but I get your point and it's basically what I think as well. If we get to the point where you have more to lose than to gain from killing others, KoSing will happen much less frequently.

[phoboss 224]

added a couple of thoughts to the original post.

[doctorbadsign 645]

I also think there is a lot to bear in mind when it comes to the current state of the game in Alpha.

 

As it stands the game is pretty boring. Once you're geared up there is literally nothing to do. This has two consequences; the first being that people no longer care whether their character lives or dies as they are bored with them, and the second being that people go "hunting" for something to do. My character is pretty much fully geared at the moment, and I have found myself seeking out PvP just because it's super boring to just run around occasionally stopping to get some food out of my backpack. This is coming from someone who doesn't generally want to engage in PvP in DayZ. 

 

What am I getting at? Once more features are added, and people have other stuff to do such as fixing up a vehicle they will be less inclined to engage in PvP because they will not want to risk losing that engine part they are carrying and they also have a clear goal to keep them occupied. I think it is impossible to ascertain whether KoS will even be an issue once the game has more features and thus I think at it's current stage it should rightly be ignored. 

 

I agree that more zombies will make a huge difference too, but having more to do in game will also. 

[SerasVictoria (DayZ) 13]

If i'm a bandit why would i go talk to someone and maybe get killed / loose my prey rather than taking him by surprise with KoS ? explain me plz

 

edit : to the guy above.

If i have precious stuff for my car why would i take a risk and not take down instantly that guy that went in my house?

 

the real problem comes from gear, the easiest way to keep your gear up is to remove any threat

Edited January 17, 2014 by SerasVictoria

[Jumbaliah 113]

You don't need to post this. The game has a long way to go..there aren't even zombies yet. Any way you feel about KoS is null and void when a major component of the game isn't implemented.

[phoboss 224]

I also think there is a lot to bear in mind when it comes to the current state of the game in Alpha.

 

As it stands the game is pretty boring. Once you're geared up there is literally nothing to do. This has two consequences; the first being that people no longer care whether their character lives or dies as they are bored with them, and the second being that people go "hunting" for something to do. My character is pretty much fully geared at the moment, and I have found myself seeking out PvP just because it's super boring to just run around occasionally stopping to get some food out of my backpack. This is coming from someone who doesn't generally want to engage in PvP in DayZ. 

 

What am I getting at? Once more features are added, and people have other stuff to do such as fixing up a vehicle they will be less inclined to engage in PvP because they will not want to risk losing that engine part they are carrying and they also have a clear goal to keep them occupied. I think it is impossible to ascertain whether KoS will even be an issue once the game has more features and thus I think at it's current stage it should rightly be ignored. 

 

I agree that more zombies will make a huge difference too, but having more to do in game will also. 

Yeah that's basically what I meant. Once the game has progressed further the problem of KoS will disappear, for the reasons you and I mentioned. 

 

 

If i'm a bandit why would i go talk to someone and maybe get killed / loose my prey rather than taking him by surprise with KoS ? explain me plz

 

edit : to the guy above.

If i have precious stuff for my car why would i take a risk and not take down instantly that guy that went in my house?

 

the real problem comes from gear, the easiest way to keep your gear up is to remove any threat

I think you not entirely understood what I was saying. Banditry and KoS are not the same thing. And once the game has more features, gets harder, forces you to communicate more, depends more and teamplay and so forth, KoS will tone down significantly. Just because you can't afford to kill every person you see, because you are depended on their help (however that may look like). 

Bandits will still exist then, and that's not a problem. Because they have a place in the game. They will just have to be more organized than the KoS "kiddies" are now. Like I mentioned, stalking and waiting for the right moment, not just shot someone the second you see them. There's a BIIIG difference. 

[SerasVictoria (DayZ) 13]

That's what i'm trying to say you , banditry CAN'T benefits from player interaction since it is just harder than KoS then loot. If ruined items can't be used then yes maybe banditry 'll be different than KoS but for now there is no reason for a bandit to not KoS and same for someone that just want to not loose his gear if he presumes that those people may kill him.

[phoboss 224]

That's what i'm trying to say you , banditry CAN'T benefits from player interaction since it is just harder than KoS then loot. If ruined items can't be used then yes maybe banditry 'll be different than KoS but for now there is no reason for a bandit to not KoS and same for someone that just want to not loose his gear if he presumes that those people may kill him.

Bandits will still kill people later on. But they will have to have a tactic and an will have to carefully asses the situation before firing on someone. Right now there is no real danger from just KoSing everybody. But if for example zombies have a much bigger aggro radius for gun shots and they will come running from all over the place, you will think twice before shooting someone. Or if you need help fixing a broken leg and so on, you will HAVE to interact with other players in order to get help.

[Artophwar 42]

ZOMBIES. Yup that is pretty much the solution I see to the KOS problem. The more the danger from zombies the more people will want to work together to survive. The bandits will want to group up too to protect themselves from the zombies as much as to attack other players. Being a lone bandit will be a hard life, and it should be. 

[Jcoulombe311 1]

I only had to read the first line to give you my beans!

 

You're completely right about everything you addressed, and I too have complete faith that the kos issue will be resolved eventually. People sometimes forget this is alpha -_-

[apollovulcan 93]

There needs to be a leveling system with skills and abilities.  Otherwise there will never be a reason to interact with strangers beyond stealing their stuff and killing them, or leaving them to die.  Without having something to offer beyond the same items and pixels that spawn literally everywhere around the map, players have absolutely no reason to keep other players alive, or to work with them.

This won't change when the number of zombies change, if they start respawning, private vs public hives, # of players per server, none of it. 

 

Without some sort of MMO style skill/ability system, the only objective in the game is to survive.  Allowing other players to live doesn't factor in well to that equation, certainly keeping an armed and ready player around that you just met is a much bigger risk than it is going to be a reward, right now the only reward would be if you were solo and now had another person to give you medical supplies, that's the ONLY current draw.  The game has no room, currently, for anyone to care or any reason to keep another player alive, beyond comical relief.

Edited January 17, 2014 by McG2

[phoboss 224]

There needs to be a leveling system with skills and abilities.  Otherwise there will never be a reason to interact with strangers beyond stealing their stuff and killing them, or leaving them to die.  Without having something to offer beyond the same items and pixels that spawn literally everywhere around the map, players have absolutely no reason to keep other players alive, or to work with them.

This won't change when the number of zombies change, if they start respawning, private vs public hives, # of players per server, none of it. 

 

Without some sort of MMO style skill/ability system, the only objective in the game is to survive.  Allowing other players to live doesn't factor in well to that equation, certainly keeping an armed and ready player around that you just met is a much bigger risk than it is going to be a reward, right now the only reward would be if you were solo and now had another person to give you medical supplies, that's the ONLY current draw.  The game has no room, currently, for anyone to care or any reason to keep another player alive, beyond comical relief.

Hate to burst your bubble but a skill system like in a traditional sense will never happen. What could happen is that you get better at certain things over time. Shooting, crafting, treating wounds etc. But all that will only make players value their OWN lives more, not the ones of others. So that alone won't help much in addressing the KoS issue. What will help is the need for teamwork. If you can't survive alone. Because the zombies are to aggressive and to strong. The medical system relies heavily on a second person helping you. If hunting and crafting benefit from having a teammate who can help. All those kind of things will help address KoS.