Lets talk about the community

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

There needs to be a fix, for the sake of realism. Lets actually talk about that:

 

Realistically, if a zombie apocalypse starts, will people be running around grabbing guns and shooting each other?

 

Well, some people would. The limit here is a person's Personal Morality.

 

Personal Morality is something that can't really be placed in this game. How could you show that fairly? You really can't.But to achieve simulation, something has to counterbalance this tendency. For the sake of realism, KOS needs to be balance but not eliminated.

 

There are ways to cut it down. The original used skins, so you'd know if someone was a bandit or a hero or a survivor. That's the best way to represent personal morality, and it might be the best we have. For the sake of the game, I furthermore must implore everyone to roleplay.

 

If you want to Kill on Sight all the time, maybe Day Z isn't your game.

 

Strong words. But that isn't the point of Day Z. The point of Day Z is to interact with people. Sometimes you kill on sight. Sometime you kill after observation. Sometimes you avoid a person completely, and sometimes you work together.

 

People who deny that the current state of KOS is a problem are in denial, or are at least missing the point of this game as it was originally envisioned.

 

Yes, when it comes down to whether I survive or you do, I would shoot you in the face without hesitation.  I interact with people just as much as I go hunting for people when I need supplies.

 

When humanity is thrown into a black, dark room, with no rules and basically told survive by any means necessary....you would be surprised to what means a person will go to protect himself or his family.  I don't think I would be as surprised, just because I know what I would do in an apocalypse, and it breaks all current societal norms.  Perhaps I just appreciate the human psyche aspect of an apocalypse enough to know that, when there are no rules, people will go mad.

 

I know in any game I play, I have no problem taking it one step further then the next person, simply because it will give me an advantage.  The people who have a problem with me taking an advantage over them are generally mad they didn't take it before I did.  I also denied someone a kill in games if I knew that kill would reward them somehow, if I can deny them the rewards, either by suiciding or somehow negating their effort, I will.  It's always funny when people talk about 'honor' in a video game at that point, always makes me giggle.  They're just basically aggitated that I would go out of my way to deny them any reward.

 

So, I think it's just a matter of, how far are you willing to take an advantage over someone else, if it means you will come out ahead?  Easy answer for me.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[Dellema 12]

Yes, when it comes down to whether I survive or you do, I would shoot you in the face without hesitation.  I interact with people just as much as I go hunting for people when I need supplies.

 

Then:

 

A) Wow, that's pretty scary, but

 

B ) I'm not addressing you. I'm only concerned about people who kill on sight, but wouldn't in real life. This game is designed as a simulation. I only want it to remain as close to a simulation as possible.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Dellema

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Just to clarify, it doesn't matter to me if you like or dislike "kos" (god that term annoys me), but when people start demanding the basic mechanic of a game be changed because it doesn't suit them, that just shows me they lack any real ability to adapt to an environment.  If a zombie apocalypse happened, there would be people killing others for what they had, and yes there would be people killing others just for the joy of it.

 

DayZ is a simple situation where you either adapt or die.

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Then:

 

A) Wow, that's pretty scary, but

 

B ) I'm not addressing you. I'm only concerned about people who kill on sight, but wouldn't in real life. This game is designed as a simulation. I only want it to remain as close to a simulation as possible.

 

The thing about a simulation game is that it tends to bring out realistic character traits in people.  I think you may be overestimating a human's moral when all societal punishments are thrown out the window.  It's also a game, so people will also tend to do what they couldn't do irl as well, it's a combination of both.

 

Not only the above, but when the zed numbers are ramped up and much more content is introduced in the game, it takes about 1-2 hours before you currently reach the "end game" right now.  What do you think there is left to do when you reach that point currently?  Have a little fun, of course!

[Madix 2]

I don't know how anyone can justify the KoS problem by suggesting that it's realistic. Do you really have so little faith in humanity to think that everyone is out there to kill you? That murdering innocent people is acceptable as long as they pose a risk, no matter how small?

 

You know why I know people wouldn't KoS in a real life apocalyptic scenario? Because in real life people don't respawn, they're dead forever. A normal, non-psychotic, person would feel remorse for killing and they sure as hell wouldn't be going around ACTIVELY SEEKING OUT AND HUNTING unarmed and friendly players as if they were deer.

 

I would rather risk being shot in the face than feel that murdering everyone is a necessity.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Madix

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

In a post apocalyptic society such as DayZ, there would be less killing irl then in the game, I would agree.

 

HOWEVER, when were talking in terms of in game, which is what this is.....YES, I expect every single person I come across to kill me, without a doubt.  It's very simple, really.  What happens if I'm wrong?  Nothing, I was overprepared and walked away from the encounter alive.  If I was right, I still walk away alive.

 

Now...if I expected everyone I saw ingame to be friendly, how do you think that would turn out?  Pretty simple scenario there, huh.  Sure I'll be right some of the time, but when I'm wrong, it will make a much deeper impact because I had some inherent faith that the person I encountered was being truthful, and when you emotionally invest in a person that what he is saying is the truth, and are then let down by betrayal, it hurts much much more, doesn't it?

 

So, like i said before, the killing in game is not a problem, it's a part of the game you will have to either adapt to and accept, or don't adapt to and die.  If you expect the worse and it doesn't happen, you are relieved, if you expect the best, you will be let down every_single_time.  That's pretty much a basic rule in life.

 

People that have problems playing a game where death can happen in many different forms, not just other players, then complain because they die.....in a game BASED ON SURVIVAL, is just the absolute biggest irony.

 

 

*This is the simplest way of explaining why the whole "omg he killed me" whining in a game based on survival is absolutely hilarious to me, I am constantly under the feeling that I am being hunted, just as you should be when I am hunting you*

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[capt. beefsteak 95]

I don't know how anyone can justify the KoS problem by suggesting that it's realistic. Do you really have so little faith in humanity to think that everyone is out there to kill you? That murdering innocent people is acceptable as long as they pose a risk, no matter how small?

 

You know why I know people wouldn't KoS in a real life apocalyptic scenario? Because in real life people don't respawn, they're dead forever. A normal, non-psychotic, person would feel remorse for killing and they sure as hell wouldn't be going around ACTIVELY SEEKING OUT AND HUNTING unarmed and friendly players as if they were deer.

The crazies will, and it's simulated in this game :) They feel nothing but enjoyment over killing, tormenting, and demoralizing people..

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

There needs to be a fix, for the sake of realism. Let's actually talk about that:

 

Realistically, if a zombie apocalypse starts, will people be running around grabbing guns and shooting each other?

 

Realistically, this isn't a real zombie apocalypse, nor is the goal of the game to accurately recreate one. It's not a simulation game.

 

For the sake of realism, KOS needs to be balanced but not eliminated.

 

KoS is balanced, by all the people just like you who don't do it. Look around on the forums, reddit and Youtube. There are many, many playesr who do many, many things besides KoS. It's already fairly well balanced, and it will get even moreso as additional features are added to the game.

 

This "doomsday" prophecy "KoS is everywhere" bullshit is the same bunk we heard in the mod days, and any time anyone tried to say that's all anyone ever did, the team would politely come in and point out that, statistically speaking, something like 15-18% of deaths were due to PvP murder (not all of even those being KoS, doubtless).

 

There are ways to cut it down. The original used skins, so you'd know if someone was a bandit or a hero or a survivor. That's the best way to represent personal morality, and it might be the best we have.

 

It was fucking awful, and stupid. And it didn't fix the problem at all. Murder rate actually rose like 2% after skins were added. "You were naughty, wear 'dis hat bad man!" 

 

No.

 

If you want to Kill on Sight all the time, maybe Day Z isn't your game.

 

If you want to tell people how to play the game, maybe DayZ isn't your game.

 

Strong words. But that isn't the point of Day Z. The point of Day Z is to interact with people. Sometimes you kill on sight. Sometime you kill after observation. Sometimes you avoid a person completely, and sometimes you work together.

 

Which is exactly what is happening in the game right now.

 

People who deny that the current state of KOS is a problem are in denial, or are at least missing the point of this game as it was originally envisioned.

 

I have found it an almost universal truth that anyone who claims they know what the "point of the game as it was originally envisioned" is actually mean "the point of the game as I personally believe it should be."

 

Chernarus doesn't revolve around you, mate. Sorry for the news.

[Madix 2]

In a post apocalyptic society such as DayZ, there would be less killing irl then in the game, I would agree.

 

HOWEVER, when were talking in terms of in game, which is what this is.....YES, I expect every single person I come across to kill me, without a doubt.  It's very simple, really.  What happens if I'm wrong?  Nothing, I was overprepared and walked away from the encounter alive.  If I was right, I still walk away alive.

 

Now...if I expected everyone I saw ingame to be friendly, how do you think that would turn out?  Pretty simple scenario there, huh.  Sure I'll be right some of the time, but when I'm wrong, it will make a much deeper impact because I had some inherent faith that the person I encountered was being truthful, and when you emotionally invest in a person that what he is saying is the truth, and are then let down by betrayal, it hurts much much more, doesn't it?

 

So, like i said before, the killing in game is not a problem, it's a part of the game you will have to either adapt to and accept, or don't adapt to and die.  If you expect the worse and it doesn't happen, you are relieved, if you expect the best, you will be let down every_single_time.  That's pretty much a basic rule in life.

 

People that have problems playing a game where death can happen in many different forms, not just other players, then complain because they die.....in a game BASED ON SURVIVAL, is just the absolute biggest irony.

 

 

*This is the simplest way of explaining why the whole "omg he killed me" whining in a game based on survival is absolutely hilarious to me, I am constantly under the feeling that I am being hunted, just as you should be when I am hunting you*

 

The fact that the game requires you to KoS so much more than real life is my problem. DayZ isn't another generic CoD type game... It's supposed to be a realistic post-apocalyptic survival simulator. Each encounter should be suspensful, unique, and completely unpredictable. How immersive can the game possibly be if every encounter is the same old "kill or be killed" every time?

 

For the record, I don't think that KoS should be removed (It's your choice to be an asshole). I just think that players shouldn't be forced to play in a way that's against their morals... that there should actually be something to gain through cooperation.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

The fact that the game requires you to KoS so much more than real life is my problem.

 

You are absolutely not required to KoS, ever.

 

DayZ isn't another generic CoD type game... It's supposed to be a realistic post-apocalyptic survival simulator.

 

No, it's not. It is not a simulator. Where did everyone get this idea? Nobody on the team has ever called the game a "post-apocalyptic survival simulator." 

 

I guess that's just what everyone wants the game to be, so they go around saying it all the time hoping that it will eventually just come true?

 

Dean has said he does not see the game as a simulation.

 

He has also said that the presence of sadistic killers is a key aspect of the game, and improves the experience.

 

Yes, you're right. It's not CoD, but it's also not the game you seem to think it is.

 

The game as described by Dean is a social experiment - put players into a world with some zombies, some harsh survival mechanics, a giant open world and no rules and see what they do without a bunch of rules, regulations and punishments for "bad behavior."

 

For you, what you do is try to play the game like a survival simulator and survive a really long time, great!

 

For others, what they do is try to put bullets into other players as often as possible. Also great!

 

Your way is not better, or "more realistic," or "true to the vision of the game," or all of these other things people keep saying. It's just how you choose to play. Guess what? If everyone played it like that, especially now when there are almost zero features implemented, the game would be a fucking boring-ass snooze. Seriously, what would you do? There are barely any zombies to survive yet. So even if you think that one day KoS will be a problem, acting like it needs to be addressed now, when there's basically nothing else to do, is doubly silly.

 

For the record, I don't think that KoS should be removed (It's your choice to be an asshole). I just think that players shouldn't be forced to play in a way that's against their morals... that there should actually be something to gain through cooperation.

 

There are already enormous benefits to cooperative play, and more to come. Just having a second pair of eyes to watch your back is more than worth the effort to find friends to play with.

[twingunz 308]

I honestly think irl it would be just as much KoS mentality as in the game, atleast untill numbers thin out (but ingame we spawn so numbers obviously never thin out) but when time goes on and numbers thin and supplies increase due to less demand (people) is when communities start to rebuild.

During the mayhem with still moderate population people would be crazy for supplies, fear, whatever but again after numbers thin out and people start to form groups and start touching base thats when irl (i feel) KoS would start to slow down (as calm and order starts to regain its footing) and it would become more turf warfare, so what i'm saying is it's up to us to find similar players and start our own communities of like minded players to best survive KoS as playing lonewolf (how i normally like to role) you could never survive forever in such a hostile world irl or in game.

Edit: I just think KoS is great for RPers it brings in a whole element to survival, as if irl this did happen i'd kill anyone stepping into my home whether they were friendly or not until shit was calm and i knew what the f*ck was going on, till then why would i risk a stranger in my space when right now in a calm non zombie mayhem world i wouldn't let a stranger in my home so doing so in a world gone to sh*t seems a lil silly to me! KoS is reployaing to me haha

Edited January 12, 2014 by twingunz

[Danny_Boooy 61]

Why don't all you "non-kos" people just form one giant super clan. Then you can all play with each other and outnumber the bandits. Develop some kind of friendly signalling system or something stupid like that. I dunno.

 

Just take each life as they come.

Getting killed is sometimes exciting for me. It means I get a fresh start and It also means I had some kind of interaction with another player (not the best kind but ohh well).

 

There are SO many people complaining about KOS. So that means that there must be a lot of people who don't KOS. So... There's ya solution. You'll find those people from time to time and you'll have a blast. And sometimes you'll find me. And I'll blast you in the face.

 

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the Dayz of our lives... HURR

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

There are SO many people complaining about KOS. So that means that there must be a lot of people who don't KOS.

 

It's funny, isn't it? I must read 500 threads a week about people who "refuse to KoS" but insist that "that's all anyone else does."

 

You would think, eventually, these guys would start bumping into each other in the game.

[Carpoor 8]

I am constantly under the feeling that I am being hunted, just as you should be when I am hunting you

 

Exactly. Today, a guy opened a door on me in a house. He was prone with nothing in his hands and said 'friendly!'. I squeezed off a few but pulled my sights to avoid him. Could have lit him up since he was bare handed, but instead just said 'okay, friendly too' and we separated quickly. Earlier this week, walked up on a guy shooting at a couple zeds with a mosin. I ran up behind him and clubbed him to death with my crow bar. A crow bar is all I had, I wanted his mosin, so I took it.

 

Each interaction had with players is separate and unique. Carrying a personal vendetta that affects your decision making process will lead to the same repetitive outcome.

 

I've been KoSd and I've KoSd many times. But this one time, a guy showed me how to fill my canteen. Thanks to player freedom, I always have my canteens topped off.

 

You would think, eventually, these guys would start bumping into each other in the game.

 

lol.

[Radeon (DayZ) 4]

lets face it until zombies truly pay a threatening role instead of an irritation this game will always be a themed deathmatch...

once the themed threat is an actual threat and added some side missions like rescuing a group of survivors from a horde of zombies, or a small town being overwhelmed by zeds or a small military camp needing medical supplies and being over populated with zeds..

 

without an end goal with an objective, other the the basic principles of surviving from bandits this is a deathmatch game with u being the tamagotchi..

[wild_man 4442]

OP don't realise is game where everything finish after death is why dayz is special and death coming from players also atmosphere of fear and if you don't have balls for this don't play >:(

Edited January 12, 2014 by KoS

[Chauz 166]

No matter what side you are on, people will start killing each over resources straight away when they run out of resources. Kill the person before he sees you so he cant be a threat to you and take his stuff without having the feeling that he is now tracking you down, is just a part of the game.

 

So for the hope of all people that dislike it, I hope they add private servers soon enough were you can host your events and RP stories.

[melancholymastermind 33]

Watch the Movie "The Colony"   it looks into the evil inside men when the world goes to shit.

 

 

I absolutely hate getting KOS'd  however its too early to even bother talking about fixes.  There are many mechanics still to come that will drastically alter the game and how we all play it.

At the moment there is :

 

No End Game

Too Little Loot

No Loot Spawning

No Zombie Spawning

Shit Zombies

Easy Survival

 

 

As each of these are added/fixed/upgraded the game will change and so will how people play it.  That will change (mostly) what/why people KOS  which will in all likelihood make any "solution" no longer applicable.

 

 

How about we wait?

[Element47 2480]

 

KoS is balanced, by all the people just like you who don't do it. Look around on the forums, reddit and Youtube. There are many, many playesr who do many, many things besides KoS. It's already fairly well balanced, and it will get even moreso as additional features are added to the game.

 

 

THIS

[Karmaterror 982]

I refuse to believe that so many of humanity would turn to mindless killers in the apocolypse. We are social animals by nature,and in the apocolypse we would be more united but the us vs them aspect. I think for real that many more would avoid killing, as there is no debate that it effects the mind. 

 

Saying there is serial killers irl dosent really fly either. I mean if theres so many then why do 90% of the worlds population get on with life, deal with whatever anger they have, and manage not to kill people. I think that the gaming generation has been desensitised to (what they think) killing would be like. When really no one has any idea of what its like to kill another.

 

An example of how hard it is to make one human being kill another (even with just cause) is soldiers. They are trained  to control there emotions and shoot when ordered. Yet in Vietnam a staggering percent of new soldiers either fired high, shot to miss, or didnt even shoot at all. Now if someone can do that, after all that training, then i think we can see the true nature of most humans.

 

Beyond your own concious there isnt a way to curb peoples attitude in game. Theres too much of an emphasis on the "kill shot" from other games. Too many just want that instant endorphine rush from getting a kill, because thats what they have been spoon fed for years from "normal" fps games. 

 

In the end i hope that dayz gives us other things for the player to get that rush from, and im sure it will. Giving us more to do than just pvp. Im all for bandits randomly killing me, but as it stands, the numbers just dont feel "authentic".....and that is what Dean says hes going for. 

[nereus77 59]

THIS

 

NO. Do you ever post anything?

 

Like I keep saying, if you don't want to be killed on sight then don't be seen. Stick to the shadows, the treeline, stay low, stick to cover, be aware of your surroundings. If I can't see you, I can't shoot you. This isn't Call of Duty or Battlefield, its more like Thief, but with zombies.

 

Role-players should band together and form their own little communities on servers and forums. Then they can defend their towns from raiders and bandits, as one would during a real apocalypse.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Nereus77

[shadowjack 254]

I'm not trying to cry. I was hoping to put a new spin on this question by asking not how to eliminate Kos but how to either encourage or create an environment that both allows KOSers and RPers to do thier own thing, be it seperated or together.

 

what you are looking for won't happen unless ...

 

1. they have RP only servers

or

2. RPers, being the creative souls that they are, adapt the RP into the environment.

 

I always play "my game" based on the rules of the game. This is an open world anything goes environment. I play my game with that in mind. The KOS mentality that can sometimes dominate is used to enhance my experience not detract.

 

Otherwise I would find something else to do with my time.

[Old_Crow_Whiskey 119]

Vehicles, added equipment, and tighter supplies are going to change everything. Right now kos makes sense. I don't do it but I love that other people do, and I kill them happily for it. Later on, after several updates, there will be additional factors in play that change the equation about should I kill or should I not. Kos is risky behavior and can end in the killers injury or death, and in my experience it usually does. Many people would not do this if they're trying to find a wrench to fix their car so they can pick up their buddy who is being tracked by a gang of bandits. Idle hands, devils work, etc. With time the gameplay is going to change dramatically, and probably in some very exciting ways.

[Madix 2]

"You are absolutely not required to KoS, ever."

 

As you stated earlier in this post, you lose "nothing" by shooting people in the face when you see them.

But you're right. The game doesn't "require" you to KoS just as it doesn't "require" you to eat and drink. This is a survival game, it's certainly your choice not to survive.

 

I guess it is somewhat possible to avoid being KoSed, unlike eating and drinking, as long as you "don't be seen" (which is the most repeated f@@ktarded response on these forums). You can certainly stick to shitty towns with no loot in them, server hop to unpopulated servers, or combat log if you see someone but it's boring as hell and it completely breaks the immersion of the game.

 

 

He has also said that the presence of sadistic killers is a key aspect of the game, and improves the experience.

 

 

I completely agree with that. But when more than 50% of the population is sadistic serial killers it only "improves the experience" for them.

Aggressiveness breeds aggressiveness, passive friendly players that never KoS have to choose to join the crowd and KoS themselves, live like a coward and miss any "social" aspects of the game, or leave the game for good.

 

Your way is not better, or "more realistic," or "true to the vision of the game," or all of these other things people keep saying. It's just how you choose to play. Guess what? If everyone played it like that, especially now when there are almost zero features implemented, the game would be a fucking boring-ass snooze. Seriously, what would you do? There are barely any zombies to survive yet. So even if you think that one day KoS will be a problem, acting like it needs to be addressed now, when there's basically nothing else to do, is doubly silly.

 

I know that the game is in early alpha and I don't need to be constantly reminded that it isn't complete.

 

I agree that KoS most likely won't be so prevalent when Rocket gives us something else to do just as It's also likely that game breaking bugs will be fixed.. but what's the harm in offering feedback? Someone like you should know the benefits of being proactive. At least with feedback, nobody dies.

[Fabiano (DayZ) 0]

I dont think KOS is a problem, but If I may suggest a "solution", how about more options on the combat system that are not lethal? Dont get me wrong, a headshot would still kill, but, maybe, a combat system that allows players to shoot the legs or just hit (with blunt weapons) with the purpose of knock down another player, not kill.

 

Of course some people would still kill, but many others would just stole the loot and let the victim go.