Why Mouse Acceleration in First Person desperately needs Fixing #2 *Long Post*

[27 others 102]

Hello,

 

 

 

When in my last thread i stated that Dayz` mouse movement is a problem, a lot of the people did not understand me, half of them didn`t read the whole post, others said it was realistic.

So, I restructured, and added to my ideas to hopefully convey it better. This has become a very long post by now, but this is only because i tried to answer questions before they appear and thus not making the thread completely confusing. I drew pictures for clearification.

 

 

Before you read any further, we have to come to the consensus that  mouse movement in any game with first-person mode should be classified 

as a replication of our ability to move our head in a room. Our eyes are on our faces, moving our head means moving our view.

 

 

Once significant problem in making first person shooters has always been delivering a natural, immersive experience through the mouse movement.

There is one thing no game can convey to us: the feeling of body control. You can look straight ahead and scratch your ass. 

You can look in one direction and point the nozzle of a gun in another. But how would you as a game designer convey control over something that is not on the screen?

 

 

Many of the earliest FPS had you holding a gun in the middle of the screen. They couldnt seperate movement of head and movement of arms, they were practically glued to another.

To overcome this problem, what would you do?

 

 

Would you limit your speed of head movement to the slower arm movement? And thus create a clunky, unintuitive and restrictive experience, which is not even realistic? (Dayz) 

 

Or would you enable the arms to move a little faster than they actually are able to? This also is not realistic, but creates a fluid and intuitive gameplay, that still maintains many of the possibilities from the above mentioned method. (Common Ego Shooters)

 

 

Arma answered to the unrealistic, empowering nature of the usual FPS with countersteering. A Limitation of Mouse Acceleration is not such a bad idea. But the value they have for the upper limit of mouse acceleration at the moment, is unfitting.

 

 

 

I will elaborate on this. The stuff I said may sound a bit vague/confusing to you, but I created this image to show you the line of thought. I had to make it this big. View it in fullscreen.

 

 

Here i am gonna describe gaining useful data from an ego shooter and DayZ, which i will later compare:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWl1fpV8RuM&feature=youtu.be

 

 

 

 

Now the Maths:

 

Ego shooter: 360° in 0.63s -> 570° per second -> moves 42.5% faster than real life

 

Real Life: 500° in 1.25s -> 400° per second

 

Dayz: 360° in 2.57 s -> 140° per second -> moves 65% slower than real life

 

 

 

 

 

!!!!!!!!!!!          CONCLUSION OF EXPERIMENT:          !!!!!!!!!!!

THE MOUSE MOVEMENT OF DAYZ IS LESS REALISTIC THAN ANY COMMON EGO SHOOTER.

 

 

 

 

 

Suggestion on how to fix /add reality factor in 5 Steps that do not involve animation work:

 

 

First Step: Remove negative mouse acceleration. 

If you move your mouse faster than the maximum level, it should stay at the maximum level instead of decreasing. 

 

Second Step: Set maximum acceleration to 300° per second.

Lets say the maximum possible mouse acceleration currently lies at 150°/1s with medium mouse sensitivity. That means if a person is angled 150° from your nozzle, you can aim at him after 1 second. I would say liberate the mouse movement without liberating the gun movement too much. 

That means, with an improved system, you could spot him after 0.5 seconds. In reality, your weapon nozzle would now face a different direction, tho (remember the image above). This unfair advantage will be evened out by the steps below.  

 

Third Step: Set the velocity of 200°/s as a "SWITCH" to trigger heavy crosshair wobbling. 

You are granted to move your gun with your view (300°/s), but as soon as you exceed a rotation speed of maybe 200°/s , your gun starts wobbling ALL over the place (like when you sprint, but harder), until your movement speed comes below that 200°/s again.

 

Fourth Step: Implement variable that reduces unnecessary SWITCH-activation.

Say, you need to hold the speed of 200°/s for 0.2s for the SWITCH to activate. If you accidentally jerk your mouse at high speed for a very tiny distance, you shouldnt be punished with crosshair wobbling. This holding variable would have to be aligned by testing.

 

Fifth Step: Implement buffer-time variable that represents "composing oneself".

When you do a quick movement and finish it, you need to apply force to consolidate your position. This takes a little time. The buffer time variable, which would also have to be aligned by testing (maybe 0.25s), illustrates the time it takes you to calm your movement and your gun nozzle. It kicks in as soon as mouse movement speed gets lower than 200°/s again, and keeps the wobbling going until it is over.

 

 

This is what it would look like ingame:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxOJLI3h6DE&feature=youtu.be

 

 

Instead of heavy wobbling, another option would be simply not being able to shoot within that time period.

 

This solution enables easier navigating through houses, a more fluid gameplay without the negative ("cheating") effects of common ego shooters.

 

 

 

ADDITIONAL STUFF:

 

I only did this huge post because i am concerned the developers dont even see this as a problem ( "the devs wouldn't change [mouse acceleration] because it would be some form of cheat if they did") http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/161696-negative-mouse-acceleration/?hl=%2Bmouse+%2Bacceleration

 

I would also like to point in the direction of this thread by KeelPool. It contains many well thought out solutions to the same matter.

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/160187-make-1st-person-less-clunky-remove-mouse-acceleration-deceleration-smoothing/#entry1609143

 

 

 

Any thoughts and corrections are appreciated.

Edited February 1, 2014 by 27 others

[SaveMeJebus 164]

All I have to say is ... anybody that gets in front of my nozzle better watch out ^_^.  Now back on topic,  alot of this is wasted effort as they havn't even fixed the obvious problems that lie within so who knows what the final plan is anyways and I'm sure acceleration on/off is for sure an option (would solve 90% of any complaints).  That being said, the best "realistic" option I have seen (I forget what game) is when you snap your mouse and do a fast spin your characters head would whip around but the gun would have a slight lag time of following the head as you kinda said towards the end.

[lommetyv 47]

I like that it's not all counter-strike mode out there.

 

But they could make it so that if you press space & lower your weapon you will spin around quicker as you would in real life. Less resistance if you lower your weapon as you turn & it's just what you normally would do in a combat situation.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Mr. k

[dasinfi 4]

I would immediately stop playing the game if this would be implemented. Sorry man.

 

 

If mouse input is altered by a game in a non-linear fashion it leads to unprecise cursor movement on the screen (bad aim) and tense finger muscles. All in all: A very frustrating experience and also the reason why I quit playing ARMA II.

 

I draw these results from more than 10 years of competitive Warcraft 3 and Counterstrike. As well as many years of working with Photoshop (with some practice you can draw using the mouse comparable with using a pen. However mouse acceleration would completely ruin any amount of drawing skill you can have.)

 

 

 

I hope they remove all mouse acceleration from this game or I might stop playing.

Edited January 9, 2014 by dasinfi

[27 others 102]

Ah i misunderstood that.

Edited January 9, 2014 by 27 others

[dubghall 36]

I would immediately stop playing the game if this would be implemented. Sorry man.

 

 

If mouse input is altered by a game in a non-linear fashion it leads to unprecise cursor movement on the screen (bad aim) and tense finger muscles. All in all: A very frustrating experience and also the reason why I quit playing ARMA II.

 

I draw these results from more than 10 years of competitive Warcraft 3 and Counterstrike. As well as many years of working with Photoshop (with some practice you can draw using the mouse comparable with using a pen. However mouse acceleration would completely ruin any amount of drawing skill you can have.)

 

 

 

I hope they remove all mouse acceleration from this game or I might stop playing.

 

I think you should read the op probably 10 more times... just judging from the amount of misunderstanding (or non-understanding) you seem to have regarding what the OP said.

Then Id love to hear ur take...till then.. .SHHHHH.

As for my take on this post it is awesome.  And spot on.  Anyone who likes the current mess in the way of natural movement - is insane....   Yes it is true that I shouldn't be able to snap around in a second, but no it is not true that the solution for this should involve me being unable to move through doors and constantly getting hung up on objects I that are easily avoidable even in a rich environment.    It yanks you out of the game if your char hits its shoulder on every fucking door you go through... and yes practice does help I understand but that is DEFINITELY not the way this issue should be handled, with everyone just having to get good at a bad system of movement.

The OPs concept of wider crosshairs under certain conditions of movement until you stabilize or slow your movment is EXACTLY what should be done, I agree completely.  Moreover it wold "Feel" right to you once you tried it since your mouse movement would be precise... your walking dexterity would be precise,... the only limitation would be that your shooting would suffer while trying to spin around and shoot... or snap-shot - as in life, so in dayZ.

 

If you cant handle that, then this isnt the game for you.

Edited January 9, 2014 by spcmonkey

[deebz1234 243]

there have been tweets about it between rocket and many people complaining.

 

it is being fixed...whats ridiculous that it wasnt fixed in first patch?

 

i mean come on...it makes the whole game 10x better instantly..

 -roaming around

 -looking around

 -pvp

 

everything is upgraded with a useful fucking mouse...

 

i hate the way it is now and I hate the fact that they included a non working button in the options...

[Element47 2480]

there is no matter more urgent to me than fixing the abomination that are the controls and environment interaction that the current game has inherited from Arma. but i still have hope that its somewhere in the pipeline.

 

until then, i embrace it as a challenge.

[libertine 351]

I couldn't agree more. In common shooters that are immersive, like Metro, when walking/sneaking around i will take it upon myself to control the movement so it is realistic and compliments immersion. Thats what we do 99% of the time in DayZ, rather than actual combat. Another factor is that our field of view in real life is about 180 degrees! When looking for things in houses, it would be so much easier in real life. The game doesn't represent that ease at all.

 

 

Somebody should create a series of live action satire videos called DayZ Metagame. Episode one: A guy going through a building is about to exit through a door. Zombie yells behind him. He looks back at it. "Ah, cute little zombie. Look at you." Turns to leave. Tries to open door. Door open indicator doesn't come up. Moves around. "Dayz doors..." *shakes head*. Backs away. Indicator comes up then disappears. Looks around. Nope. Moves forward. Looks around. Comes up disappears. Starts getting a little panicky. Tries other weird movements to open the door until getting eaten ...you get the idea.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Thane

[27 others 102]

i present to you Dayz 2020. The dayz standalone game development has finally reached the state of beta. The graphics have been vastly improved due to help of Bohomia Interactive and their Arma VII engine. Zombies are now able to steal the players beer, which is now a vital part of surviving. New Meelee weapons such as a bar stool have been implemented. Ragdoll has also found its way into the game. Sadly, the mouse movement mechanics have not been improved.

 

Edited January 10, 2014 by 27 others

[Patri0ta 0]

I am shocked they haven't fixed this negativity acceleration yet, i am a high sense player and it is a pain to me to have to move my mouse bit by bit.

 

If you hold free-look button you can move you mouse on X direction just normally, as soon as you let it go boom back to crap.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Patri0ta

[27 others 102]

Holding ALT does not help navigating as well. Normal Mouse movement has an immediate effect on the direction you are walking, Mouse movement holding ALT has not.

[Spitfire- 0]

All that really needs to be done is making the mouse control 1:1 ratio like all other FPS type games such as battle field and call of duty etc.. The mouse control on dayz standalone is exactly the same as arma 2 which feels very inconsistent, jumpy and just not precise at all. I hope this can be addressed :( because right now it feels identical to the free dayz mod. 

Please fix the issue and thanks for all the hard work in the making of this game :D 

[dgeesio 1034]

anyone who plays any games to a decent standard knows you have no acceleration on mice.raw unput only. more precise with no exaggeration or acceleration.

 

if you don't know or understand that is not a excuse to keep it this way in dayz SA its terrible.

[Nihilum 209]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/
 

Call of Duty "has almost ruined a generation of shooter players..." 

Edit: to spell it out -- allowing you to have the 1-1 input you all crave -- the ability to [what will be perceived by anyone watching you] instantly about face is stupid for a simulator and would make things look really wonky/glitchy in terms of character animations, and kills the "weight" of the character.

Also, you should all disable the built in acceleration in windows, as I suspect the game at this point doesn't do anything to disable it, making it appear even worse than previous arma titles, in addition to input lag from the server on your character.

Control Panel\Ease of Access\Ease of Access Center\Set up Mouse Keys


 

Edited January 19, 2014 by Nihilum

[Spitfire- 0]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/

 

Call of Duty "has almost ruined a generation of shooter players..." 

Edit: to spell it out -- allowing you to have the 1-1 input you all crave -- the ability to [what will be perceived by anyone watching you] instantly about face is stupid for a simulator and would make things look really wonky/glitchy in terms of character animations, and kills the "weight" of the character.

Also, you should all disable the built in acceleration in windows, as I suspect the game at this point doesn't do anything to disable it, making it appear even worse than previous arma titles, in addition to input lag from the server on your character.

Control Panel\Ease of Access\Ease of Access Center\Set up Mouse Keys

 

Well I can tell you for one, aiming your firearm down the sites on battlefield seems like a better "simulator" than dayz arma etc. From my past experience shooting REAL weapons as a hobby such as AR-15, SKS and assorted pistol platforms it seems ridiculously easier than dayz which doesn't make sense and it's just a pain really.. Acceleration in the windows mouse setting is also disabled for me, I talked to several friends about this and the mouse coding definitely needs a fix. I'm sure they'll fix this it's only in alpha, I just hope they read this! Keep in mind I'm talking about aiming down sites AND controlling the characters left/right to guide it, the feel is just a mess. 

[27 others 102]

Call of Duty "has almost ruined a generation of shooter players..." 

Edit: to spell it out -- allowing you to have the 1-1 input you all crave -- is stupid for a simulator.

 

Yes, i know that Call of Duty is not a prime example of a shooting simulator. Dayz, however, also isn`t. In fact, it does quite a few things even worse than common shooters.

 

I would appreciate you reading through the experiment i conducted to confirm this thesis, aswell as my suggestion on this matter. My suggestion moves a bit towards the CoD-kind of handling player navigation, but has a few of its own restrictions that should make things more fair.

[Coolwhip 1]

there have been tweets about it between rocket and many people complaining.

 

it is being fixed...whats ridiculous that it wasnt fixed in first patch?

 

i mean come on...it makes the whole game 10x better instantly..

 -roaming around

 -looking around

 -pvp

 

everything is upgraded with a useful fucking mouse...

 

i hate the way it is now and I hate the fact that they included a non working button in the options...

I agree. 

I've got a good mouse (w/ good sensor), I'd like to use it properly in DayZ so that my mouse movement is constant.

No accel when just looking around with the crosshair would be brilliant :)

[St. Jimmy 1631]

1:1 input isn't a good thing but the negtive mouse acceleration that A2 and DayZ have is bit too much. Negative mouse acceleration could work or at least I like how A3 negative mouse acceleration feels over the 1:1 input but most people don't use it because they don't want disadvantage. I hope they hit the sweetspot some day but for now movement and input doesn't feel good at all.

[Artophwar 42]

It may not have to be 1:1 but the mouse movement needs fixing. It currently feels very unnatural and sometimes makes me a bit motion sick in its current form. I am all for the OPs suggestions.

[Jaybopper 49]

To be fair, it doesn't take any amount of math to arrive at the conclusion that the movement in the game is crappy. I hope to see it get a little more fluid

[Nihilum 209]

1:1 input isn't a good thing but the negtive mouse acceleration that A2 and DayZ have is bit too much. Negative mouse acceleration could work or at least I like how A3 negative mouse acceleration feels over the 1:1 input but most people don't use it because they don't want disadvantage. I hope they hit the sweetspot some day but for now movement and input doesn't feel good at all.

Oh, I wholly agree it could be better, but not this twitch shooter like what's being called for -- they're not taking into account the fact first person and third person are one in the same in the RV engine. Other games get away with this because of the smoke an mirror separation between what you're doing in first person, and what's happening (what everyone else is seeing) with your avatar in third, a separation of transitional animations

[eviltoast499 7]

I'm happy to see that other people here think the mouse movement is awful and not a feature but a problem. Seriously the people who think it needs to be even clunkier and that having responsive controls turn the game into Call of Duty are out of their mind. Moving around in buildings is a pain in the ass, you always get stuck on door frames and small objects. Turning around too quickly makes you look straight up in the air...it's just unnatural as hell.  

[27 others 102]

Oh, I wholly agree it could be better, but not this twitch shooter like what's being called for.

 

You misunderstood me then. Im not at all calling for dayz to be a twitch shooter. 

 

Games like CoD have way too FAST mouse acceleration. (-> twitch shooting)

Dayz has way too SLOW mouse acceleration, thus not making it more realistic.

 

I want DayZ to have a mouse acceleration speed pretty much IN BETWEEN these two (see my suggestion).

This adaption of a realistic mouse acceleration value would not transform Dayz into a twitch shooter, for the following reasons:

 

1. "TWITCH"

From Wikipedia: "Twitch gameplay keeps players actively engaged with quick feedback to their actions"  .......... I am calling for realistically quick (->normal) feedback to players actions.

 

The input speed would not be reflected 1:1 in the game. It would still be slowed down. It would be hell of a lot more realistic than Dayz, tho, since certain parts of the human body are capable of much higher speeds. With "certain parts of the human body" i do not refer to the gun operating arms. While the arms are also capable of moving a gun faster than it is presented in game, this is not my focus. Spine rotation and neck movement, together with small, instinctual footsteps enable humans to SPOT threats rather quickly (see MSPaint drawing).

 

2. "SHOOTER"

See how i emphasized the word "spot" in that sentence? Having quick reflexes in Dayz should be rewarded with being able to ----> SPOT <---- a threat as quick as real life permits.

Fast reflexes should NOT be rewarded with GETTING INTO A SAFE SHOOTING POSITION AS QUICKLY AS YOU ARE ABLE TO SIMPLY SPOT SOMEBODY IN REAL LIFE.

A phrase more fitting to what i suggested would be "Rather fast looker".

 

 

To sum it up for you, my suggestion contains:

 

- Rather fast (realistic) spotting

- lack of gun control during high rotation speeds (crosshair goes everywhere!!!) -> Twitch shooting is practically IMPOSSIBLE.

Edited January 20, 2014 by 27 others

[BL1P 252]

No because of this