Ultra realism Vs Balanced game design

[gamer222 86]

The game is authentic....

[Atomizer 53]

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but realism does not mean it needs to be clunky and complicated, and while not a game striving for maximum realism, Battlefield 4 is a good example of what I am talking about, being able to run around and quickly navigate the map in a reasonably realistic way, you don't need to think about if you're vaulting over an object or just jumping, both of which are handled with the same key, it is a streamlined smooth experience without detracting from any "realism".

That is why the vault in SA is better then the mod, even though sometimes it just randomly decides to stop you from a sprint to do a slow vault rather then the quick hop, though still a bit more clunky then it needs to be to be "realistic"("authentic" is the right word, but it isn't unrealistic to be able to do that, you can do it in real life, why would it being clunky be "realistic"?)

 

Another thread, I forget what it was, discussed the idea of making weapons block your turning, someone however brought up the fact that if you're turning around inside in the real world while holding a long rifle, you don't need to think about moving around the weapon in order to not slam it up against the walls, it would be a rather smooth operation in real life, same with going through doorways, why should the game enforce "clunkiness" on these aspects when it isn't "realistic"? In a perfect game, it shouldn't, it should animate everything perfectly so if you turn around indoors and your gun would hit the wall, it would animate you positioning the gun to avoid the hit, no having to think about what button to press to change your gun position etc.

Since this is not really feasible with the way the engine handles things, it should take some liberties, but shouldn't restrict your movement to such a degree.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

At the end of the day a forum poll doesn't really make a difference, Rocket's "vision" was that of a survival simulator or "anti-game" and it's kind of his game.

Although it's interesting to see what people think DayZ should be - helps explain some of the ideas people come up with in the forums.

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

The goal here is not to reach "perfect realism", nobody's stupid enough to think that'll ever happen.

The goal is to aim toward it as much as possible, so that when the "game" part comes in (because as you said, in the end, it's a game), the compromise will be more toward the initial goal and less toward making it "gamey".

 

If during game design you plan for "let's try to get it as realistic and authentic as possible", then all your final game-play decisions will factor that. If you start by saying "this is just a game, let's forget realism", you end up with Health Boost appearing after killing a zombie, perma-sprint, etc.

 

As for DayZ, I want that compromise to be so hardcore that yes, sometimes it's a chore. Playing at night in DayZ is a chore but it's also AWESOME. Having a broken leg is a chore, but the experience it offers is also awesome. 

 

There are tons of games out there already about "survival & zombies", none really catch my attention because they mean nothing, have no "soul" (whatever that means), no balls. Could play most of these games barely paying attention. DayZ IMMEDIATELY caught me, I'll always remember that first connection, during night time, completely unable to see anything apart from that flare light. I was like: "wow, this is crazy!" and spent the next two hours laughing nervously while trying to sneak between zombies and whatnot while staring at a near pitch black screen.

 

And that's pretty much it overall. I don't really want DayZ to become just some random FPS game with zombies, I want it to be an experience that bitch-slaps me so hard every-time I make a mistake that I'll want to punch through the wall, that grips me so tight that I keep a light on when playing just so that I don't get a heart attack.

Never gonna happen of course, but setting achievable goals is for crybabies and that's why I say: go nuts, I'll try to cope!

 

You missed my point. I'm not saying to toss the idea of realism out the window, but aiming for every aspect to be as realistic as possible is going to create one of the most boring games ever. Currently breaking a leg is a chore, and I don't mind it, but if it were realistic EVERYONE would literally just suicide and regain their gear.

People would do the same thing when limping with blisters. And cars would be a total waste if you had to find the exact tire size and roll it a few miles to get it on the car in the first place.

Shoe size shouldn't even be considered, but realistically people have different shapes of feet.

 

 

Basically there are some things that need to be unrealistic for the sake of the game being playable. On the other side, some things need to be realistic for the game to be enjoyable and difficult. Aiming for everything to be as realistic as possible is just going down a bad road. I want realism, I've already said this, but not unnecessary realism. 

You can still get your ass handed to you without it trying to simulate reality down to the blisters on your feet. This isn't a simulator.

 

No other game gives the experience DayZ does but none even try to aim for even a sliver of realism as far as I can tell. Having certain things realistic while others not isn't going to kill the game.

_______

 

If it weren't a waste of dev time I'd like it if  they could just magically make the game as realistic as so many people claim to want it. They spawn in, run through the woods, trip on a root. They have a sprained ankle and no where to go. Do these same people arguing for realism in all things die to respawn or struggle to get help and then wait a few days until they're good to walk normally again? It's pretty obvious.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Diggydug

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I chose "somewhere in-between" because there wasn't an option for hardcore servers. More server types, more choice, no need to remove things players like.

[Mutonizer 78]

You missed my point. I'm not saying to toss the idea of realism out the window, but aiming for every aspect to be as realistic as possible is going to create one of the most boring games ever. Currently breaking a leg is a chore, and I don't mind it, but if it were realistic EVERYONE would literally just suicide and regain their gear.

So? Some people suicide just to get a better spawn, some because they're screen is a little blurry or black and white.

I've played through every broken leg so far and this system has been in since early Mod days so seems pretty clear now that's where the project is going.

People would do the same thing when limping with blisters. And cars would be a total waste if you had to find the exact tire size and roll it a few miles to get it on the car in the first place.

Shoe size shouldn't even be considered, but realistically people have different shapes of feet.

Like bloody types right? Ohh, wait...

Totally do not mind limping, tire size, shoe size.

 

 

Basically there are some things that need to be unrealistic for the sake of the game being playable. On the other side, some things need to be realistic for the game to be enjoyable and difficult. Aiming for everything to be as realistic as possible is just going down a bad road. I want realism, I've already said this, but not unnecessary realism. 

You can still get your ass handed to you without it trying to simulate reality down to the blisters on your feet. This isn't a simulator.

There will be many things unrealistic because they just cannot be done in a game, so why not make the ones that can be done, then see from there? :)

 

If it weren't a waste of dev time I'd like it if  they could just magically make the game as realistic as so many people claim to want it. They spawn in, run through the woods, trip on a root. They have a sprained ankle and no where to go. Do these same people arguing for realism in all things die to respawn or struggle to get help and then wait a few days until they're good to walk normally again? It's pretty obvious.

Because that's totally artificial and forced, I've never strained my ankle through mountain treks or forest jogs and some "random" thing like that out of nowhere is definitely not fun.

However, being a bit stupid and jumping from a high place or other risky actions that YOU initiate and can have severe consequences, I'm all for it.

[tristanyockell 11]

Most important to me is ultra realistic firearm/combat and medical systems,injuries.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Tyockell18

[floj 393]

I was just wondering...of the people requesting hardcore realism...how many are then gonna play on easy mode with the invisible UAV over their shoulder? Cuz I certainly don't see 50% of the playerbase in the 1PP servers.

[soulfirez 901]

I was just wondering...of the people requesting hardcore realism...how many are then gonna play on easy mode with the invisible UAV over their shoulder? Cuz I certainly don't see 50% of the playerbase in the 1PP servers.

oh my you probably have found a chink in the ultra realisim crews armour, i look forward to the slew of why 3rd view is realisitic but honestly after the trashing i got for using the word balance not to peoples standard LOL i am going to avoid posting just reading this thread....

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

I was just wondering...of the people requesting hardcore realism...how many are then gonna play on easy mode with the invisible UAV over their shoulder? Cuz I certainly don't see 50% of the playerbase in the 1PP servers.

 

Holy shit was the 70-page thread circling the same argument every half-dozen pages not enough for you to work out your anger issues about 3^rd person perspective?

 

I will come join you in your 1^st person, holier-than-thou, land of true grit & manliness Shangri-La when we get ultra realistic sound - so instead of foot steps sounding basically the same regardless of whether someone is 100m away on the other side of a concrete wall or 20m away on the other side of a plywood door, we can actually sense the relative position, speed and location of nearby players based on sound alone.

 

So, instead of 200 pound men with 120 pounds of gear on their back being able to pussy-foot around across old and unkempt wooden floorboards like fucking Russian ballerinas wearing bedroom slippers, all while opening doors completely silently, I can actually realistically hear someone in the same house as me - and know what floor of the house they're on roughly by the direction and distance of the sound.

 

I'll totally join you when I can hear when someone opens a door, even if they're behind me and can realistically sense the change in air pressure when a door near me is opened and instantly know that someone is behind it - and can shoot through it.

 

When I can hear someone running through a forest during the day from hundreds of meters away, instead of needing to be halfway up their asses to hear them fart, I'll join you.

 

Until then, I'll take my shoulder UAV and use my eyes as substitute for my ears. Let's call them eyars, shall we?  And can we please stop talking about it? Holy loving mother of god.

[floj 393]

OK, so better sound design...jeez, didnt' take a 200 word rant to say that - then you'll play 1PP?

 

EDIT: If you want gamey elements like the UAV, just tick the gamey elements box...no biggie

Edited January 8, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

So? Some people suicide just to get a better spawn, some because they're screen is a little blurry or black and white.

 

I've played through every broken leg so far and this system has been in since early Mod days so seems pretty clear now that's where the project is going.

How can you argue for realism and then be okay with people killing themselves when a tiny thing goes wrong?

 

 

Like bloody types right? Ohh, wait...

Totally do not mind limping, tire size, shoe size.

Not the same. Blood is a healing potion, basically and the blood type thing, as far as I can see, is just so they're not as easy to use as in the mod.

Doing a blood transfusion would probably cause those involved to be unfit for doing anything but chilling for awhile as well. Sounds like a party, donate blood, eat some beans and relax for a day and take it easy the next.

 

 

 

There will be many things unrealistic because they just cannot be done in a game, so why not make the ones that can be done, then see from there? :)

I'm aware that there will be unrealistic aspects, that's why I don't want them to try and make everything needlessly realistic. No matter how hard you try or dream, it's still a game once it boils down to it and games have to be entertaining.

 

 

Because that's totally artificial and forced, I've never strained my ankle through mountain treks or forest jogs and some "random" thing like that out of nowhere is definitely not fun.

However, being a bit stupid and jumping from a high place or other risky actions that YOU initiate and can have severe consequences, I'm all for it.

 

Try sprinting through the thick of the woods fully geared toting a rifle? Chances are you'll trip over something. That's realistic, and needlessly so. I suppose people could walk everywhere because that's realistic and safe. Realistically people wouldn't be jogging most of the time, but walking. Must be so annoying being able to do the unnatural. 

 

 

Let me reiterate my main point.

 

Realism in many aspects, but there's a fine line. That line is different to everyone, but there would be a point where it just becomes ridiculous. I don't play a game to make sure my shoes are tired and piss on trees.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Diggydug

[floj 393]

piss on trees.

Kinda funny logic, but the last thing you'd want to do whilst hunted is to face an immobile object and restrict your view by pissing on a tree. Far better to back up against one and keep your vision open and piss into thin air (if anyone sees your weiner, the size of it is the least of your problems)

[five3 4]

Thread is TL;DR

 

Here's the thing about DayZ... It is 100% unreal, as in it would never happen. Therefore, anyone who argues that something should be done in a certain way because it is "realistic" has already lost the argument.

 

Do you have weapons training? Probably not, you'd be useless with a weapon. Perhaps you could scare some animals away.

Do you have advanced medical experience? Probably not, you can bandage small wounds. Want to do something more? Good luck not doing more damage.

Are you a pilot? Doubt it...

Can you run for miles? Have you ever run more than a few miles? Again, doubt it...

 

An average "realistic" person in an environment like DayZ would be 100% fucked and 100% useless, they would be better off dead... A realistic DayZ sounds like tons of fun... Tons.

 

What everyone should be talking about is way to make DayZ a more interesting, enjoyable experience, not realistic. When I want a realistic life experience I have no problem finding it, because I live it.

[Mutonizer 78]

[..]games have to be entertaining.

There's 6.5 billions definitions of that word and DayZ's concept is to be an anti-game, an experiment.

Since that's exactly what brought people here, I don't really see why backing down on that idea seems the thing to do now?

That said, I don't really care in the end. I'm just here to see what Rocket and his team will do. I comment on forums and whatnot but the only thing I want is to let HIM do whatever he wants, not what I want or what you want. If I end up HATING the end result, fine, ah well. If it ends up as I think/hope it will, then great.

I knew when I bought the alpha that it was a risk and I NEVER put money in alphas and whatnot but I wanted to finance it anyway, just to see what would happen because something this crazy, especially in today's video game industry, deserved it. I just hope it stays completely crazy.

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

You seem to think I'm against realism entirely and want a gamey experience, for lack of a better term. I trust Rocket has a picture and intends on experimenting with many things before settling on what he feels is "right".

 

I don't want it toned down but I'm aware there's a limit. As phlOgistOn pointed out people were waving the first person flag like crazy, even though first person servers have been confirmed basically from the start. Those servers are nigh desolate. People say they want needlessly hardcore but once it shows up are they there to experience it?

Edited January 8, 2014 by Diggydug

[Mutonizer 78]

You seem to think I'm against realism entirely and want a gamey experience, for lack of a better term. I trust Rocket has a picture and intends on experimenting with many things before settling on what he feels is "right".

 

I don't want it toned down but I'm aware there's a limit. As phlOgistOn pointed out people were waving the first person flag like crazy, even though first person servers have been confirmed basically from the start. Those servers are nigh desolate. People say they want needlessly hardcore but once it shows up are they there to experience it?

Been on such server since it's available. Don't really care about what others are doing nor if a server is full or empty.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I was just wondering...of the people requesting hardcore realism...how many are then gonna play on easy mode with the invisible UAV over their shoulder? Cuz I certainly don't see 50% of the playerbase in the 1PP servers.

 

I support keeping 3PP servers (as 3PP works now) and I play 1PP servers, your digs at people who simply prefer 3PP and trying to make yourself sound hard core are becoming a background track for this board.

[Rantanplan 18]

...

I'll totally join you when I can hear when someone opens a door, even if they're behind me and can realistically sense the change in air pressure when a door near me is opened and instantly know that someone is behind it - and can shoot through it.

...

You can join us right away then, as this puts you in the same shoes as the player down on the road that is being observed from a hidden sniper with virtual periscope view.

Sometimes you are at the weak end of a design issue, on the road or being stalked without hearing it, the other time you are on the winning end with the observation/stalking advantage.

But to counter one weakness with another is a very weak argument.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Rantanplan

[Jakaali 1]

In my opinion, ultra realisim works best on military sims. Since they provide you the clear scenario, task and equipment to do it. Where in dayz you have to find and collect all that equipment and if you die in process you have to start over again. Now, I do love this feature alot, its great risk and reward. But only for now Im able to get best experience of the game as Im sick and cant realy do much but stay indoors. But after I start going to work, school and other stuff i need to get done, I get maybe hour or less time to play. So my point is if you dont have time to play longer period of time you wont get the best experience of this game. And that is one of reasons why me and my friends prefered private hives on dayz mod where you could get decent gear abit faster.  So personaly I preferer gameplay  over the realisim.

And I this is my opinion based on my experience. And yes, game is still in early alpha. So lets wait and see how things are going to be.
 

[Death_Dealer 3156]

I don't think people are really grasping what *ultra*-realism would be like

 

Simply cooking a meal could take a good hour out of playing time, not to mention hunting. If you break your leg, you're pretty much fucked, end of story. If you get some sort of sickness, which would be much more common in an apocalypse scenario, 9 times out of 10 you're fucked. Various tasks would be incredibly tedious and time consuming, to the point where you just don't want to play anymore

[kermo50 31]

Agreed, another thought would this level of realism even be technically possible? I know this is different from someone's opinion of an ideal DayZ but it's still relevant.

[Karl87 17]

If I did not want the most realistic experience possible I'd play something else, even if at times its "less fun" its still what I want. As it is now for example its still to easy, not enough z's, not enough incentive to stay alive, and bullets still don't kill efficiently enough. Not to mention the ballistic failures. The only gamey feature I want is time compression for certain activities aka, getting over illness, eating, gutting kills things of that nature. However I think you should have to choose how to gut the kill, fix the vehicle etc. The need to diagnose an non running vehicle for example would be a great addition.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Karl87

[floj 393]

I support keeping 3PP servers (as 3PP works now) and I play 1PP servers, your digs at people who simply prefer 3PP and trying to make yourself sound hard core are becoming a background track for this board.

Do you like the dub beat?

[Morrighan 15]

You seem to think I'm against realism entirely and want a gamey experience, for lack of a better term. I trust Rocket has a picture and intends on experimenting with many things before settling on what he feels is "right".

 

I don't want it toned down but I'm aware there's a limit. As phlOgistOn pointed out people were waving the first person flag like crazy, even though first person servers have been confirmed basically from the start. Those servers are nigh desolate. People say they want needlessly hardcore but once it shows up are they there to experience it?

 

The point is to force everyone onto those servers as cannon fodder for the people who live in this game and have gotten bored with it. What's the point of spending twelve hours a day gaming online if no one's around to appreciate how easily you kill them? Same thing with the night servers. Want to play night time? Look for the servers with less than ten people on them. The only way to get people to play night time, and therefore be convenient targets for the lovers of the night time, is to force them. Because plainly given their druthers, they won't go. And that's why page after page and thread after thread, the demand is not to allow people to choose what kind of server to play on, but to remove those options altogether. That's the only way the Superhardcore!!!!11!!! players will get targets to shoot at in the land of perpetual darkness.

 

These "realistic" features like first person point of view and pitch black night are obviously not popular, so odds are, for the sake of the continued existence of the game, they will not be forced upon all players. There's the line between gameplay and realism. If the "realistic" elements are so onerous nobody wants to cope with them, they'll get scrapped for the survival of the game. Rocket can't continue to develop the game if only 10% of the players enjoy watching a two week bout of incapacitating malaria before dying of thirst.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Morrighan