Accuracy comparison: DayZ vs ARMA 2

[ZlobaRUS54 441]

Yet they are not bothered by the fact that every survivor is a trained paramedic.

Not bothered by the fact that every survivor has the stamina of a professional athlete.

Every survivor can deliver one hit knock outs like a professional boxer.

(presumably) can repair and operate every vehicle they encounter.

Can we have accurate rifles, please?

 

Why does it have to be all or nothing? A lot of stuff (including morphine to fix broken bones) is a placeholder. 

[Mutonizer 78]

So? We're talking about accuracy and I was 6.. An adult would have no problem.

 

It's like karatekas doing katas, all alone: it's precise, fluid and quite beautiful and impressive.

Then you see them fighting in a championship and it looks horrible, completely chaotic and you wonder how someone with such knowledge and experience with karate moves is doing something that looks this lame. 

 

What you're asking is "Bruce Lee vs Chuck Noris" as it's shown in Way of the Dragon. Perfection of movements, coordination, etc. That's totally unrealistic.

What would happen in reality is Chuck Noris probably wiping the floor with Bruce Lee. One was an artist with a philosophy, the other one was a trained fighter going 183 - 10 - 2 during his fighting career.

 

Shooting targets and fighting for your life are NOT the same thing and I think DayZ should represent that. Is the current system doing that? Somewhat. Can it be improved? Oh yea, for sure and it'll probably be :)

 

 

edit: please don't argue the Lee vs Noris thing, not the point. The point is that there is a difference between just showing nice moves and actually using them when it matters and it's life threatening, as can be seen in all combat sports :)

Edited January 6, 2014 by Mutonizer

[gibonez 3633]

It's like karatekas doing katas, all alone: it's precise, fluid and quite beautiful and impressive.

Then you see them fighting in a championship and it looks horrible, completely chaotic and you wonder how someone with such knowledge and experience with karate moves is doing something that looks this lame. 

 

What you're asking is "Bruce Lee vs Chuck Noris" as it's shown in Way of the Dragon. Perfection of movements, coordination, etc. That's totally unrealistic.

What would happen in reality is Chuck Noris probably wiping the floor with Bruce Lee. One was an artist with a philosophy, the other one was a trained fighter going 183 - 10 - 2 during his fighting career.

 

Shooting targets and fighting for your life are NOT the same thing and I think DayZ should represent that. Is the current system doing that? Somewhat. Can it be improved? Oh yea, for sure and it'll probably be :)

 

 

edit: please don't argue the Lee vs Noris thing, not the point. The point is that there is a difference between just showing nice moves and actually using them when it matters and it's life threatening, as can be seen in all combat sports :)

 

There are better ways to simulate that.

 

Such as weapon sway, high recoil, erratic sight alignment.

 

Ways to not simulate that is to have the bullet travel to a random direction each time you press the trigger.

[AmirDayz 54]

DayZ mod already had a 'panic' mechanic that kicked in when you had low blood and zombies were near, a similar thing can be used in the standalone if you're taking fire, it would also allow for realistic suppressing fire tactics. Does not require weapons to be inherently inaccurate.

Edited January 6, 2014 by AmirDayz

[Mutonizer 78]

DayZ mod already have a 'panic' mechanic that kicked in when you had low blood and zombies were near, a similar thing can be used in the standalone if you're taking fire, it would also allow for realistic suppressing fire tactics. Does not require weapons to be inherently inaccurate.

 

Yea, would probably be a good addition.

[mtace93 1]

Accuracy is not the problem with sniper rifles its how stupidly easy they are to adjust for elevation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlKtKqpCaWw

Would fix the problem.

Excellent reply, I any of you have ever used ACE with arms you will know what a amazing mod it is, implement some of them feature in this would be great.

[BelMarduk 169]

I shot my first deer in the heart at about 200 meters with an m4 at the age of 6. Anyone can shoot.

 

I shot my first deer in the heart at about 200 meters with an m4 at the age of 6. Anyone can shoot.

The bullshit flag is officially thrown. No you didn't, quit making things up for attention.

[BelMarduk 169]

There are better ways to simulate that.

 

Such as weapon sway, high recoil, erratic sight alignment.

 

Ways to not simulate that is to have the bullet travel to a random direction each time you press the trigger.

without discipline, 'pressing the trigger' will indeed give you the dispersion pattern the game currently has. First, without training, it would take tens of thousands of rounds to become even 'proficient'  with a single gun. Remember, practice does NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If there is no one to tell you that your jerking the trigger, no one to tell you your fulling your wrist, you will be under the assumption for a long time, that its the gun and not you. Even a trained 'weapons expert' will need a number of rounds before a weapon is 'accurate' to any degree.

 

@Gews. This game IS and ALWAYS was (as in the dream of its creator Pocket) a PvE game first with PvP allowances. So the direction of precision guns with perfect aim is a direction opposite to its original path. If you honestly want to argue that point, Im going to have to make another pot of coffee.

[Cinnabuns 45]

The Mosin compensator is the other really annoying one...

 

It doesn't even reduce recoil at all, instead it does exactly the same thing as the bipod - gives the gun pinpoint accuracy. And it does it in all stances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't even understand how someone could give it those properties without alarm bells going off in their heads, "beep-beep-beep-beep, this doesn't make any sense!"

 

A few things to consider here.

 

The guys that are making this mod/game are game developers.  I'm sure some of them know something about guns but I'm sure the majority don't as is the case in "most" groups of civilians.

 

 

Something else I'm considering is that you've taken this shot group information from game files which is to say we have no idea how these patterns are being applied by the engine unless they're applied completely straight out of the file.

 

It is entirely possible that your rest level factors in to this "file"(s) contents and the numbers given from the files are "worst case scenario" limits of the particular guns.

 

So if you've sprinted for 100m and then fire your gun immediately with no rest (just as an example), the algorithm is applying (or will be applying in a future update) these aiming inconsistencies to your shot pattern where as if you have been squatting on a hill for 15min, are rested, healthy, etc, then the algorithm doesn't apply nearly as much of the "file"(s) contents to the spread pattern.

 

Its just a theory obviously, and I'm sure "some" of the spread pattern is being applied or so many people wouldn't be up-in-arms about it.

 

I just think its difficult to say with any certainty that just because you've found some values in some files that represent a particular spread pattern, does not imply that are being used "as is".  Computers operate with low and high limits and what the engine does with these particular files would be of real interest in this case.

 

Interesting find though.  It would be curious to get a response from a developer that worked on this.

[BelMarduk 169]

There are better ways to simulate that.

 

Such as weapon sway, high recoil, erratic sight alignment.

 

Ways to not simulate that is to have the bullet travel to a random direction each time you press the trigger.

*facepalm* There are mechanical devices you can get for your weapons that mitigate those things. Weapon sway? bi-pod (or lean against a tree, that is not/can not(?) be put in the game.. High recoil? muzzle suppressor, forward grip. Whats hard to 'simulate' is the fact that you never fired the specific weapon you just found, thats been sitting how long NOT covered in cozmoliene (sp? the grease/wax compound for packing things long storage) ?. I don't give a crap who you are, there is no person alive that can pick up any weapon and fire it with proficient accuracy EVER, outside complete and absolute blind luck.

 

RL example (and true story). A friend and myself (year before last) took a drive to a gun store. We both bought brand new Ruger Mk III .22 semi-auto's. He actually had to get the 'anniversary edition', where as I bought the 'standard'. We get home (well he dropped me off) and went to go do our own thing. Both of us did the same thing. Strip our new toys down, and clean them up for the range tomorrow. First two mags, not even paying attention to accuracy, more to feeding and feel. (CCI stingers). Third mag, there are still some golf balls on the back stop hill of the outdoor range, 50m distance. 3 out of 10 shots hit the golf ball (mine). Flat and level 'out the box'. Hand mine to Dan (another friend, that doesnt shoot much at all, he doesn't own his own firearm). He is grouping like 15-20 inches at 50 meters. I let him know what I see him doing wrong, next two mags, he's grouping 4-7 inches. Now to Toms gun. Now first let me put it this way. I think I know what I am talking about when it comes to guns and shooting. I KNOW Tom knows what he's doing. Same thing, he blows two mags through not ever really aiming (and had some feed problems that I had to bust his balls for, as his anniversary edition was 300 bucks more than mine). Third mag, he's shooting inches to the right. 4th the same. he adjusts the rear site. Now its even worst? I notice the gun pulling as he squeezes the trigger, NOT something I have EVER seen him do. Now, looking at this we came to the conclusion, it was the 'wood grips' on his Ruger, not being as perfectly cumfy in his hand as the polymer grip on mine. Now, this issue took (two rather experienced shooters) about 50 rounds to figure this out, under 'range' conditions. And you are right, it should NOT have took that many rounds. If it were Dan shooting, I would have noticed it before the first magazine was empty, but as I was 'assuming' it HAD to be the gun and not Tom's technique. Second and the most important point, the GRIPS would have made that gun exponentially more accurate for him the shooter 'right out of the box'. So YES absolutely, unequivocally, 'accessories' do indeed make a weapon more accurate. even hand grips on a hand gun.

 

TL:DR? you want perfect precision on any gun you pick up in a game? CoD and the like are games for you.

[velyse (DayZ) 22]

trained marksmen vs civilians using firearms they have little/no experience with. Guns are only as accurate as their operator.

[piru 13]

Guns should be accurate as guns are accurate even if the user is not, they don't just randomly shoot in the opposite direction the last shot went.

Make the sights actually adjustable (now that would be sweet), add sway and adjust the recoil and give us back accuracy. Please!

 

 

*facepalm* There are mechanical devices you can get for your weapons that mitigate those things. Weapon sway? bi-pod (or lean against a tree, that is not/can not(?) be put in the game.. High recoil? muzzle suppressor, forward grip. Whats hard to 'simulate' is the fact that you never fired the specific weapon you just found, thats been sitting how long NOT covered in cozmoliene (sp? the grease/wax compound for packing things long storage) ?. I don't give a crap who you are, there is no person alive that can pick up any weapon and fire it with proficient accuracy EVER, outside complete and absolute blind luck.

 

Adjustable sights? You dont need to simulate anything then. You just need to learn and adjust your gun like in reality every time you pick a new one. Not this random bs.

Edited January 6, 2014 by piru

[gibonez 3633]

*facepalm* There are mechanical devices you can get for your weapons that mitigate those things. Weapon sway? bi-pod (or lean against a tree, that is not/can not(?) be put in the game.. High recoil? muzzle suppressor, forward grip. Whats hard to 'simulate' is the fact that you never fired the specific weapon you just found, thats been sitting how long NOT covered in cozmoliene (sp? the grease/wax compound for packing things long storage) ?. I don't give a crap who you are, there is no person alive that can pick up any weapon and fire it with proficient accuracy EVER, outside complete and absolute blind luck.

 

 

Thats what I am suggesting.

 

Suggesting the accuracy of the weapon remain constant and true to life.

 

However instead of accessories directly affecting accuracy, they affect the aspects of the gun they would in real life.

 

-Bipod cuts down on weapon sway

- Compensator cuts down recoil

[BelMarduk 169]

Guns should be accurate as guns are accurate even if the user is not, they don't just randomly shoot in the opposite direction the last shot went.

Make the sights actually adjustable (now that would be sweet), add sway and adjust the recoil and give us back accuracy. Please!

 

 

 

Adjustable sights? You dont need to simulate anything then. You just need to learn and adjust your gun like in reality every time you pick a new one. Not this random bs.

Do you know how to adjust sights on a Ruger MkIII (as referenced in my example)? quite simple, if and only if you have a 1.5MM allen wrench (and know exactly what you're doing, as there are TWO adjustments, windage and elevation). Do you know how to adjust the cross hairs on a leopold 12x9 scope, and the difference between THE IDENTICAL looking knobs on a weaver scope? Do you even think in any of the known worlds, that you could perform those adjustments, without firing a single shot, with any accuracy at all?

The answers are a huge NO. Now, since we don't really want "gun sighting simulator 3000" as the game we are playing, and that aspect of authenticity is appealing to Rocket well....

 

There are BTW adjustable sites in the game... pageup/pagedown...

Just by that statement tells me you have no idea what you're actually talking about, in as much as 'real' sighting in a gun, and why you need to do it" and transferring that to a mechanic in a video game.

 

Oh and to 'the devs dont know guns...' Google back the inspiration of DayZ, where is came from, and the vision of that experience put into a game as best it could. Rocket knows plenty about weapons, his vision was a PvE experience with no limits on PvP. PvE is the core of DayZ.

 

EDIT : whats added in RED text

Edited January 6, 2014 by BelMarduk

[AmirDayz 54]

If Rocket's vision was PvE he has failed significantly in the DayZ mod, I fail to see the applications of a UH-1H with two mounted M240 machine guns for PvE reasons. There are civilian models of the huey in ARMA2, why did he insist on having one with two mounted machine guns?

If Rocket and the dev team are so interested in creating a game in which survival is at the heart of the game they should perhaps consider making survival difficult, challenging and rewarding rather than making the PvP aspects random and tedious.

[-Gews- 7443]

Oh and to 'the devs dont know guns...' Google back the inspiration of DayZ, where is came from, and the vision of that experience put into a game as best it could. Rocket knows plenty about weapons, his vision was a PvE experience with no limits on PvP. PvE is the core of DayZ.

 

Then why is absolutely everything wrong about them? They got the magazine capacities right I suppose.

Something else I'm considering is that you've taken this shot group information from game files which is to say we have no idea how these patterns are being applied by the engine unless they're applied completely straight out of the file.

See this post of mine:

I measured the model, the window is about 1.8 by 2.2 meters. That means the spread pictured here is about 1.95 by 1.95 meters, a circle around all the shots measures about 2.20 meters in diameter.

Assuming this is at 800 meters, that means the following approximate dispersions:

2.20m at 800m = 0.00275

1.95m at 800m = 0.00244

The dispersion of an unmodified Mosin is 0.0025. Feel free to draw your own conclusions :lol:

[piru 13]

Do you know how to adjust sights on a Ruger MkIII (as referenced in my example)? quite simple, if and only if you have a 1.5MM allen wrench (and know exactly what you're doing, as there are TWO adjustments, windage and elevation). Do you know how to adjust the cross hairs on a leopold 12x9 scope, and the difference between THE IDENTICAL looking knobs on a weaver scope? Do you even think in any of the known worlds, that you could perform those adjustments, without firing a single shot, with any accuracy at all?

The answers are a huge NO. Now, since we don't really want "gun sighting simulator 3000" as the game we are playing, and that aspect of authenticity is appealing to Rocket well....

 

There are BTW adjustable sites in the game... pageup/pagedown...

Just by that statement tells me you have no idea what you're actually talking about, in as much as 'real' sighting in a gun, and why you need to do it" and transferring that to a mechanic in a video game.

 

You mean you don't want gun simulator 3000. You want band camp 3000 where you can pretend you're surviving around a camp fire it seems since you don't want the guns to actually hit for shit?

Even if i didn't have the tools at that moment i could go take a a bunch shots and learn which way the zeroing was off and use that to my advantage till i can it done properly.

The page/up down accounts for quick range elevation change. Not the initial sight adjustment anyone actually trying to hit anything at range would do.

[BL1P 252]

Yer the randomness of the bullets is not too great an Idea.

 

Windage, weapon sway, weapon resting, attachments, breathing, stamina, hunger, thirst, temperature should be used to determine how accurate your shot is not randomness.

[bummel313 12]

I shot my first deer in the heart at about 200 meters with an m4 at the age of 6. Anyone can shoot.

 

 

Hm....some questions come to my mind....

 

Who uses an M4 for shooting deer? I am mean where I am from hunters wont use anything than a 7.62mm for shooting deer.

How the fuck can you effectivly use an M4 at the age of 6? Never used an M4 myself, but got plenty of experience with an G36A1/A2 from my time in the german armed forces. But I cant imagine my 7 yo nephew operating an assault rifle.

"Anyone can shoot"? Hm....if you would have said "anyone can fire a rifle" I would have agreed. But if it comes to exactly hitting your targed, you still need a lot of pratical and theoretical training to do that.

And last but not least: Are you, sir, a troll or is there any kind of sarcasm or whatever going on which I dont get since  I am no native speaker?

 

Edit: My nephew might be 8 by now. But dont nail me on that......Guess I gotta ask his mother.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bummel313

[rybo 171]

And the retards pile in.....

 

"It's so much more fun and realistic when the guns have a magic dispersion".

 

 

 

 

 

Look even someone who was untrained after shooting 300 rounds should be able to hit from point blank to at least 300m. How did I come up with this. Real life expericances.

 

And since you character doesn't learn or gain skill's in anything they do this whole magic bullet crap is absurd.

 

To all the kids who say "I like this BS magic bullet crap" you have clearly never shot a firearm.

 

If you want a musket's accuarcy then ASK FOR A DAMN MUSKET AND GET YOUR DUMB ASS HANDS OFF MY MOA RIFLE. A $600 DELTON AR SHOOTS MOA FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!! An AK is normaly MOM so 1.5"-3" MOA!!!

Edited January 6, 2014 by RyBo

[-Gews- 7443]

Who uses an M4 for shooting deer? I am mean where I am from hunters wont use anything than a 7.62mm for shooting deer.

Lots of people who own AR-15s... one of the most popular rifles is bound to be used for hunting.

 

How the fuck can you effectivly use an M4 at the age of 6?

You'd be surprised at what some kids are capable of, there are a lot of them out there:

 

Sunday a young friend, his 6 year old son and I went out to our long range spot.

He has only shot his Win 9422 out to 60 yards, with surprising efficiency.

I stop at 500 yards, said what the heck, let him try this shot. We set him up, I'm spotting, watch his first shot whack the 10" steel plate, WOW. Had him shoot 2 more, we went down range for pics.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Gews

[rybo 171]

Hm....some questions come to my mind....

 

Who uses an M4 for shooting deer? I am mean where I am from hunters wont use anything than a 7.62mm for shooting deer.

How the fuck can you effectivly use an M4 at the age of 6? Never used an M4 myself, but got plenty of experience with an G36A1/A2 from my time in the german armed forces. But I cant imagine my 7 yo nephew operating an assault rifle.

"Anyone can shoot"? Hm....if you would have said "anyone can fire a rifle" I would have agreed. But if it comes to exactly hitting your targed, you still need a lot of pratical and theoretical training to do that.

And last but not least: Are you, sir, a troll or is there any kind of sarcasm or whatever going on which I dont get since  I am no native speaker?

 

Edit: My nephew might be 8 by now. But dont nail me on that......Guess I gotta ask his mother.

 

 

 

Lol,  People use .22 LR to kill deer every day in the USA. From the local Warden to the Animal Control man. Most US states are regulated and not allowed to use .22 Cal bullets.

 

Most seasoned hunters would also consider a .308 to be over kill for a deer sized target. Personaly as one who hunts give a man a rock and he can kill it. The whole debate about what rounds for what animal is for the guys shooting from a keyboard.

 

I own a CETME so I know what you mean when it comes to the idea of a child welding a G3 but a m16 varient on the other hand is a whole different story. Hell when I was a kid we used to put the stock right up to our nutz and bang away. Just like the old Nam videos. Also the youngest I've personaly seen shoot a m16 type was 6 year old and he bagged a steel target at 200m.

 

Also just to point out child soldiers in Africa use G3's on the regular along with Fal's. Talking kids from 5-15 years of age. Hell you can google all the photo's you want just by typeing in Child Soldier in google.

 

 

 

Bummel313- ""Anyone can shoot"? Hm....if you would have said "anyone can fire a rifle" I would have agreed. But if it comes to exactly hitting your targed, you still need a lot of pratical and theoretical training to do that.""

 

I'm going to nit pick one comment. I don't mean anything by it but I do find that a little backwards. If one was say using MOA turrented scope with a Mil reticule then yes good Fing luck to that Joe. But iron sights. If you can line up two peaces of anything you can line up a shot.

 

Most adults over complicate a shot. A child just takes it...

Edited January 6, 2014 by RyBo

[rybo 171]

Gave me Beans. I'd post my own personal photo's of when I was a child doing the same thing but not about to become jerk-ma-gerk material...

Edited January 6, 2014 by RyBo

[radivmoe 47]

well i kinda like this "inaccuracy". In arma you play as, well basically a soldier. In dayz sa your a civilian. Give a m4 or a mosin to a regular joe and i assure you his accuracy wont be the same as a trained individual. So imo leave as is, it makes thing more interesting. If anything make ammo super rare.

if you look at the stances that the still player with a raised weapon uses, it is clear that you play as someone with at least basic firearms training. probably the average hunter or something.

[radivmoe 47]

oops

 

Edited January 7, 2014 by radivmoe