Who Are You? Or "How to make DayZ not all about KOS in a few not so easy steps".

[soulfirez 901]

I understand your concern.

 

However we have probably seen less than 25% of the games features implemented.  I mean in the future we're even looking at having Cannibalism in the game. We have literally no idea what direction Rocket is going to take this in.

 

But honestly if it stayed in it's current status as far as character development I'd be happy.  It's not just my mentality within the game that makes it my story.  The immersion of this game is also what does it for me.

LO(L i just have to ask what is cannibilisim going to add to the game?? they have that in breaking point (both for arma 2 and 3 it addsa laugh when you have killed someone and another source of food ( they also allowed you to eat the zombies but needing anti virals or getting sick.

 

Is it a nice touch yes add more more but im not sure why you hinged on that tiny idea thats been done already i find far to many pepople closed of to the possible immersion that could come with some character progression be it appearance or abilities or both done in reason many scream i dont want this to be wow (which no one wants) on the other side of the coin i dont want it to be COD with looting after thought some where in the middle magic imersion ground for me ( if that can be found)

[Scerun 227]

LO(L i just have to ask what is cannibilisim going to add to the game?? they have that in breaking point (both for arma 2 and 3 it addsa laugh when you have killed someone and another source of food ( they also allowed you to eat the zombies but needing anti virals or getting sick.

 

Is it a nice touch yes add more more but im not sure why you hinged on that tiny idea thats been done already i find far to many pepople closed of to the possible immersion that could come with some character progression be it appearance or abilities or both done in reason many scream i dont want this to be wow (which no one wants) on the other side of the coin i dont want it to be COD with looting after thought some where in the middle magic imersion ground for me ( if that can be found)

 

While I half-agree with your points, there is no need for mockery.  Cannibalism is yet again, going to be one of the small details that accumulate to build that larger sense of immersion, and choice. Unfortunately, for achieving a dynamic, immersive and very un-KoS-y environment, there is no one solution, and it's simply the product of, and what happens, when a whole bunch of other stuff comes together right

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scerun

[BlindProphet 34]

This alone says that this is a game about telling stories. Stories, of an RPG nature. the game does very little in its current state to encourage that, and I feel the community at large are simply taking DayZ to be Arma with zombies, when I honestly believe it's supposed to be, well, not-that.

 

 

 

 

On the contrary, I feel character customisation on that level is what makes me associate with my character. Imagine if every walking dead character looked the same, and sounded the same. Would you still feel the same about them, and their character? Being able to design my character is what makes me connect with the world. I don't like wearing masks and all that, simply because it de-humanises your character, and all association is lost beneath all the defacing rags and military equipment. I opt for the chest holster over the assault vests because it helps me build an idea of a character. Just like in the Walking Dead, and all film/TV, characters are designed very specifically. their costumes and how they act and speak are all what help the viewer associate with them and it's what defines them. It should be no different for a computer game that is trying to achieve the same level of emergent story-telling

 

Its not that I don't think character customization helps you connect.  However it doesn't help you connect anywhere near as much as experience.  You pick the chest holster for the same reason I pick the mosin, for the same reason I pick the revolver over the pistol, why I choose certain cloths, keep certain things, get rid of others.  But at the same time, my experiences have been far more impactful than any gear choice, any bit of customization could be.  I play on first person servers most of the time anyways, so I don't see my character for the most part save the inventory screen.

 

But lets be real here for a moment...even if more customization was in game.  The likelyhood that you'll see someone who looks just like you save for maybe the shirt they're wearing is fairly high.

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

First I just want to say great piece of writing by the OP. Sure it is a few things that have been covered but you wrote it in a way that kept me reading.

 

Second I would like to say I have zero issues with KOS at all, even though I don't do it I understand it is part of the game and people will do it (plus it does add some excitement).

 

 

Now for the ideas. I really love them. Especially the beard growth thing. I don't want long ass hippy hair though. I really want something that can differentiate my character from the other 600,000 players. So I think a more in depth default character should be implemented. I know its alpha. Sure only starting with a t-shirt and jeans and having to find anything else is cool, but ultimately you are going to find pants and a shirt with 6 slots in two minutes SO I think you should be able to pick which shirts/pant you start with. This will go a long way to making ME different than YOU. Since my character will then reflect my choices rather than what shirt I happened  to find first. Cold weather gear, rain gear ect should still be lootable items instead of default stuff if it will have an effect on the game other than gear slots.

 

Along with that is some way to know who I am talking to for the love of god, also who I kill and who kills me. Make us individuals instead of the "people that aren't me". Some when you are within 10 yards or something and have the dot/reticle on a player you see their name. Also when looking through a scope or down the sites at a player you see their name. This way we are involved on the personal side of the matter, not just the kill em all side.

[Scerun 227]

Its not that I don't think character customization helps you connect.  However it doesn't help you connect anywhere near as much as experience.  You pick the chest holster for the same reason I pick the mosin, for the same reason I pick the revolver over the pistol, why I choose certain cloths, keep certain things, get rid of others.  But at the same time, my experiences have been far more impactful than any gear choice, any bit of customization could be.  I play on first person servers most of the time anyways, so I don't see my character for the most part save the inventory screen.

 

But lets be real here for a moment...even if more customization was in game.  The likelyhood that you'll see someone who looks just like you save for maybe the shirt they're wearing is fairly high.

 

 

Surely is, but as more customisation is added, the chance for that is less, right? I'm not fixated on the idea that customisation is the be-all, end-all solution for character-connection, and I absolutely agree that the experiences you have in-game, and survive through, will give you a great deal of connection. though, it just seems that there's a very big focus on those sorts of implementations from the community, and the dev-team, and very little that simply revolves around character creation, which i think is just as valuable

 

 

Along with that is some way to know who I am talking to for the love of god, also who I kill and who kills me. Make us individuals instead of the "people that aren't me". Some when you are within 10 yards or something and have the dot/reticle on a player you see their name. Also when looking through a scope or down the sites at a player you see their name. This way we are involved on the personal side of the matter, not just the kill em all side.

 

 

I'm not opposed to this idea, but would this reduce the need for asking for the other guy's name (and subsequently, player-interaction)? If character customisation reaches a respectable level, then you'll be able to recognise the character simply by what they wear? Though, I suppose there's the issue of recognising a character if they change clothes. I doubt there'll ever be a time we can recognise another character simply by their face, in a game. So, maybe a solution would be to simply have some kind of notification that shows that you've met this character before. That's probably a far too gamey solution, but again, just spitballing

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scerun

[BlindProphet 34]

Surely is, but as more customisation is added, the chance for that is less, right? I'm not fixated on the idea that customisation is the be-all, end-all solution for character-connection, and I absolutely agree that the experiences you have in-game, and survive through, will give you a great deal of connection. though, it just seems that there's a very big focus on those sorts of implementations from the community, and the dev-team, and very little that simply revolves around character creation, which i think is just as valuable

 

Well look at it this way...they're building a car.  They're focused on the structure, the engine, how the wheels are put together, and your asking about the color of paint, the style of mirrors, the look of interior.  Your asking about things that -will- be important, but at the current stage of things are not as meaningful.

[Scerun 227]

Well look at it this way...they're building a car.  They're focused on the structure, the engine, how the wheels are put together, and your asking about the color of paint, the style of mirrors, the look of interior.  Your asking about things that -will- be important, but at the current stage of things are not as meaningful.

 

I don't disbelieve that in any way, and it's the right thing to do. Way I figure it, if it's something they've over-looked, and something that most posts on the forums seem to have over-looked, then the discussion of it will be useful down the line. If it's something they've considered, then there's still no harm in discussing it. I have perhaps missed it, but I've not heard much, or anything, about the customisation of character beyond clothing, and not really with the consideration of it being used as a tool to connect with your character, and other characters.

 

I don't need this now, or demand it now. I'm just discussing it, because it's a healthy discussion to have. It's just something I think, "Hey, has this been over-looked?". All in good time, though!   ;)

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scerun

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

I'm not opposed to this idea, but would this reduce the need for asking for the other guy's name (and subsequently, player-interaction)? If character customisation reaches a respectable level, then you'll be able to recognise the character simply by what they wear? Though, I suppose there's the issue of recognising a character if they change clothes. I doubt there'll ever be a time we can recognise another character simply by their face, in a game. So, maybe a solution would be to simply have some kind of notification that shows that you've met this character before. That's probably a far too gamey solution, but again, just spitballing

I don't think it will limit player interaction at all, I think it will increase it. I have met a ton of players and don't know any of their names lol. Yeah the "have I met this guy before" thing would be cool, but I agree it's relying on game mechanics too much IMO.

[Bakercompany86 347]

Second I would like to say I have zero issues with KOS at all, even though I don't do it I understand it is part of the game and people will do it (plus it does add some excitement).

 

 

 

This is exactly my thoughts.  While I myself do not kill on sight, it definitely adds a high level of excitement and tension to the game for me.  And I wouldn't change it at all.

[27 others 102]

Interesting read. Dayz could profit from a LITTLE BIT of character development. If the effects were too strong tho, i think that would suck. Whats my motivation behind playing dayz after my extremely strong extremely intelligent character got shot in the back after investng 60 hours into his development?

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Whereas conversely the judicious use of force only when required could be incentivized

 

Great post at first. Really good ideas and thoughts about finding ways to help people identify with and feel more attached to their characters

 

Then it basically devolved into a very long-winded way to say "Punish bandits and reward heroes."

 

The answer is still "No." Just because you said it in 400 words instead of 40 doesn't make it a better idea for the game to slap you on the virtual wrists for being a bad guy and slob your virtual knob for being a goody-good.

 

Your reward for being good is good feelings, and the punishment for being bad is that people don't like your sort of folk. That's it.

[Scerun 227]

I don't think it will limit player interaction at all, I think it will increase it. I have met a ton of players and don't know any of their names lol. Yeah the "have I met this guy before" thing would be cool, but I agree it's relying on game mechanics too much IMO.

 

Hah, depends on your interaction I suppose!  The only time I've asked for their names is when I've taken them hostage, and I'm just keeping them entertained. As time goes on, hopefully there will be more social interactions outside of these, uh, very sociable hostage negotiations!

 

 

Interesting read. Dayz could profit from a LITTLE BIT of character development. If the effects were too strong tho, i think that would suck. Whats my motivation behind playing dayz after my extremely strong extremely intelligent character got shot in the back after investng 60 hours into his development?

 

 

Think you're right there! Though, perhaps this would fit Rocket's vision for an anti-game? If so, then I guess that's what we could look forward to, but if not, then there'll need to be game mechanics that give a sense of development, without forcing your way through some contrived game-system to achieve it. I figure, that with the want for emergent story-telling, that we'll simply see most of our character-connections stem from random events and interactions with players, and over-coming survival obstacles against the environment. Character customisation will be, in my eyes, a way to give that experience a unique appeal and one that is original towards the individual

 

I imagine, and hope, we'll be towards the ends of emergent development, as opposed to tread-mil game-mechanics. Say you spend 60 hours in a character, there should be nothing that'll say you can't achieve the same sense of achievement in the next 10 hours, next time

[Gdaddy22 299]

tl;dr but gave beans because long posts are usually good

[Bakercompany86 347]

Great post at first. Really good ideas and thoughts about finding ways to help people identify with and feel more attached to their characters

 

Then it basically devolved into a very long-winded way to say "Punish bandits and reward heroes."

 

The answer is still "No." Just because you said it in 400 words instead of 40 doesn't make it a better idea for the game to slap you on the virtual wrists for being a bad guy and slob your virtual knob for being a goody-good.

 

Your reward for being good is good feelings, and the punishment for being bad is that people don't like your sort of folk. That's it.

 

 

Bingo.

 

 

I wish everyone would stop trying to punish bandits in some way.  If you want to "punish" bandits, you're going to have to be more clever than some sort of "godsight" granted by the game, or forcing them to go insane for playing their way.  It's ridiculous.

[semipr0 402]

Great post at first. Really good ideas and thoughts about finding ways to help people identify with and feel more attached to their characters

 

Then it basically devolved into a very long-winded way to say "Punish bandits and reward heroes."

 

The answer is still "No." Just because you said it in 400 words instead of 40 doesn't make it a better idea for the game to slap you on the virtual wrists for being a bad guy and slob your virtual knob for being a goody-good.

 

Your reward for being good is good feelings, and the punishment for being bad is that people don't like your sort of folk. That's it.

 

No what basically happened is you ran aground of a point you disagreed with then discounted everything else.

 

Which is fine, you're welcome to disagree with it...but I don't think addressing the validity of behavioral choices affecting character outcomes is something that should be so shallowly discounted either.

 

What I'm describing is not an indepth system, its a simple, if wordy, explanation of what a more complex system could be...and in all fairness the system could be even more complex than my simple description of it.

 

So don't immediately assume just because I painted that out as an example that I completely believe that good guys should get rewarded and bad guys should be punished, I'm simply using it as an example system which could be implemented to help give the experience depth. Now does that mean I think bandits should get the shaft and heroes should get the night elves? No...not entirely, I think there should be a lot of factors figured into the overall conditional mental health of all players regardless of their chosen style of combat...its just really too complex to plot it out in a simple idea forwarding forum post.

 

All factors should be considered in regards to the evolution or retardation of a characters development...and negative and positive benefits should not be wholly and totally in the corner of one playstyle or the other, but a combination of all relevant factors leading to various individual results end up doing something slightly interesting...ergo, your toon kinda ends up with a personality based on what your own personality has molded into it.

 

So again...its a little more complex than you've painted it, but in fairness its a lot more complex than I've painted it as well.

[semipr0 402]

Bingo.

 

 

I wish everyone would stop trying to punish bandits in some way.  If you want to "punish" bandits, you're going to have to be more clever than some sort of "godsight" granted by the game, or forcing them to go insane for playing their way.  It's ridiculous.

 

Again its not about punishing bandits...punishing bandits should be done by people with guns thats kind of the point. You can read the above to get a better idea of what I mean.

 

People need to stop getting hung up on small points and understand the larger systemic intentions here. I used that as a baseline example..I even say that its a baseline. Its not complex. Its not full feature presented...its an idea that evolves...kind of like how I'd like to see people evolve.

[Scerun 227]

So again...its a little more complex than you've painted it, but in fairness its a lot more complex than I've painted it as well.

 

 

True enough, but, I suppose this thread was more on the implementation of your ideas regarding KoS. I think a sanity/stability system would be great, but, not for the sole purpose of affecting people's choices as ultimately, being either bandit, or hero. We're all survivors, way I sees it!

 

A sanity/stability system would be complex, like you said. But would it be worth? I absolutely reckon so! It's another challenge to the long-term survival, which is what needs exploring and elucidating in DayZ. Short-term survival is easy once you know the game, and long-term survival is nothing more than avoiding bullets. The hidden 'Health' system, along with the 'Blood Levels' system are great for increasing challenge over time, and another system of sanity/stability would be another hurdle for all those who're looking to really live it out for a while!

 

Definitely worth discussing!

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

Holy fuck text.

Not bad ideas but like you said would be soo hard to implement.

[27 others 102]

So, just to be clear, you want to be able shape your ingame character like in an RPG such as Fallout?

You want your character to evolve with increased gametime? You want your character to be able to do things better by repeating actions?

I love Fallout, but i do not think that this would be so smart to implement in Dayz.

 

Because there is one factor:

 

You die once, all your progress is in the gutter.

Soon you will have to regain all of those "mental" and "muscular" capabilities AGAIN. a painful progress.

 

And it wont even reduce the KoS mentality. You say people will shoot less on sight, because they will evaluate the risks?

Guess what, the bandits think of it as a risk to let another person live. THEY ACTUALLY ARE CONVINCED OF THAT. they think if they dont shoot him in the face, but split paths, he`ll come and rape them in the anus.

 

 

I like the basic idea tho, a little more depth to the character... but you really, really could have compressed all that text. 

even your f*cking comprehension at the end....

 

"DayZ needs to support who you are in relation to who you have chosen to be,"

"the way to start supporting that is to start quantifying the human experience of living in the world DayZ presents into mathematically measurable and applicable systems"

 

ENGLISH PLEASE!

Edited January 3, 2014 by 27 others

[Bakercompany86 347]

 

 

And another critical application of mental development is stability. The ability to deal with stress and/or rationalize difficult decisions and scenarios. Faced with situation of starvation or murder, your average human being is going to probably initially make quick decisions to their own benefit without feeling any cost from the scenario itself...but faced with these situations over time, depending on how you deal with them, you either become far more stable and rational in regards to them, or you tend to lose your grip slowly but surely and end up somewhere on the other side of PTSD and in some worst cases total insanity. Sanity and stability are two figures which could also be affected by mental development, both of which would be affected by character actions. To use the classical hero/bandit approach only really makes a tacit attempt at giving these truly human experiences a number...no true effects, just a number, perhaps in the cases of some mods of the mod that number might have mattered, but in the SA I think this needs more than a number..it needs direct benefits/deficiets that associate with it. Mental health is often reflected by physical health, taking mental development in association with and in aggregate accumulation of player choices and actions can lead DayZ down a road of slightly more realistic control of the internets rather sociopathic tendency to not give a fuck about what they do in relation to other people cause all that matters is that they win in the end. Add a little thing like depression as a statistical debuff to the consistent pursuit of wanton murder and you may actually be on a track to make people think about how their actions are going to affect them...you could even go as far as to add insanity, client side rendering of zombies that simply aren't there..causing the player to react to them as if they were real threats and compromising their location/wasting their ammunition is a simple application of "insanity" which could be used as an end system deficiet for being a cold blooded killer. (Not to say that everyone goes insane from killing other people but..lets just use it as a baseline cause this is a game after all). Whereas conversely the judicious use of force only when required could be incentivized by simply giving a player a better capability of dealing with the stress of random life threatening situations as a daily course of events without creating a deficiet to their physical and/or mental well being. So...in simple terms, heroes can kill more often because they don't kill more often, whereas bandits might end up in a situation where they cannot perform at physical peaks due to mental deficiets accrued from their chosen pattern of behavior and thus while killing more they cannot do as much as efficiently....and I totally think the insanity thing is a definite area of possibility using client sided rendering because...I'm already kinda freaked out by zombie rabbits, and thats not even intentional, imagine what could be done...just with that unintentional side effect if applied with a little creative thought?

 

Your first two paragraphs on mental health are fine, and I wouldn't mind them implemented.  Although it may be too complicated for this game, again I'm not opposed.

 

 

 

This paragraph however, just says "Punish the bandits, reward the heros."  Pure and simple.  And I'm against that by all means necessary.

[Hero of Suburbia 40]

Oh man, great post.

Imagine the satisfaction of capturing a guy with a long grizzly beard and even longer locks of hair, and then shaving him bald, putting him back to square one without even killing him. Oh it would be great.

[semipr0 402]

So, just to be clear, you want to be able shape your ingame character like in an RPG such as Fallout?

You want your character to evolve with increased gametime? You want your character to be able to do things better by repeating actions?

I love Fallout, but i do not think that this would be so smart to implement in Dayz.

 

Because there is one factor:

 

You die once, all your progress is in the gutter.

Soon you will have to regain all of those "mental" and "muscular" capabilities AGAIN. a painful progress.

 

And it wont even reduce the KoS mentality. You say people will shoot less on sight, because they will evaluate the risks?

Guess what, the bandits think of it as a risk to let another person live. THEY ACTUALLY ARE CONVINCED OF THAT. they think if they dont shoot him in the face, but split paths, he`ll come and rape them in the anus.

 

I believe it will give people a moment to pause and evaluate the risks. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone..some people just want to watch the world burn after all.

 

But we don't shoot people for fun and profit in real life because there are associated risks with doing so. Loss of freedom being one of the more generally known ones, but there is the risk of your own death occurring in the process as an unintentional side effect of having decided to go on a murder spree. We don't engage in these kinds of behaviors generally because the risks are too imposing. We have too much to lose. We can rationalize it around morality and that kind of thing if we really want to pick nits...but in general, people refrain from murdering other people not because of morality but because of fear of loss. Thats kind of the sad state of the human condition because as you may have noticed people that have nothing to lose, or have no fear of reprisal are far more content to butcher other human beings than most of the rest of us...and its because we have that fear...not because we have morality.

 

A generic killer in DayZ has no fear because they have nothing to lose. I don't like to use the term "bandit" specifically because a bandit is actually someone who puts some effort into taking what you have beyond shooting you in the face from a nice safe distance. But your general killer in DayZ...someone who's just going to pop you because you're there will do so because there is no fear whatosever. Anything they lose should things not go their way...is replacable within minutes or at worst an hour.

 

Life has to have value to fear losing it. I believe the same can be applied in a game environment if done in a well implemented manner.

[27 others 102]

there is already that considerable risk of loosing something. killers could loose the last 2 hours of their life, searching for that m4. 

 

I play carefully because i dont want to loose all those hours of gearing up.

 

many others just dont care, because they have no life anyway LOL

Edited January 3, 2014 by 27 others

[semipr0 402]

Your first two paragraphs on mental health are fine, and I wouldn't mind them implemented.  Although it may be too complicated for this game, again I'm not opposed.

 

 

 

This paragraph however, just says "Punish the bandits, reward the heros."  Pure and simple.  And I'm against that by all means necessary.

 

Right the first 520+ words are fine, and a choice few in the other 300 are not. Can we just get past that and understand my explanation that I'm not simply talking in complete black and whites here?

 

Its just as possible for a hero to lose their marbles in a scenario where they are not meeting other key critical health concerns as it would be for any other style of player. Its not about reward A/punish B..its about layered depths of achievement and challenge all of which work together in a complex web of interconnected variables that all have direct affect on the player and each other. The associated effects of which are variable depending on how they are managed.

 

Think of it as SimPerson....SimPerson with a Gun™. So aside from the daily routine of wandering around looking at the scenery and occasionally dodging bullets or throwing lead at other people, you are also managing this internal system of needs which begin to define you as a person over time.

[27 others 102]

the game you describe is like heroin. 

 

if you try evolving your character, and you are killed in the middle of almost achieving it, you will feel like shit.

 

if you finally have an evolved character you are happy with, you are gonna have some pretty statifying hours of playing.

 

Then you die

 

and you try to get all those skills up again, but you die and you die again and then you lost your job.