Possible solution to KOS, hear me out

[jan3sobieski 32]

So this has a number of major flaws

1: If you can't tell bandits from survivors based on their appearence that means survivors will KoS as soon as that warning appears. I would kill everyone I run into, including other survivors, - And this is different from now... how exactly?

2: New type of grefing: play as a survivor and force the hand of other survivors by attacking them. They have to kill you or they die. When they kill you they get closer to death by sadness. - What? If i'm playing as a survivor why would i force anyone's hand by killing them first? Also, see above, how is that different from what it is now? 

3: If you can tell bandits from survivors, then all survivor encounters are gonna be almost completely void of uncertainty and tension because you know the survivor you ran into most likely wont do anything.

    This goes against the essence of this game in every way. - You can't tell bandits from survivors, just like it is right now. The only difference is now you'll have a fairly good idea that if you encounter someone and the 500m warning doesn't go off, you have a slightly higher chance the other person is a survivor also and won't kos. That's all. They still might, but as of right now you have like 10% chance they won't kos, with this change you'd have maybe 75% that they won't.

4: None of this actually addresses the real problem in the game, which is not people killing on sight, but the reasons they do so. 

   There are two main reasons, one being benefit vs risk: There is near 0 benefit from cooperating with a stranger vs a fairly high probability that this player might kill you if you approach him/her. - This system would help finding someone to cooperate with easier than looking for people on forums, exchanging info etc.

   The other reason is simply boredom, which is also related to the first reason. If surviving was actually a challenge people wouldn't be bored as easily. - You've just made my case, thank you. So it's fine for me to put in 200 hours of gameplay for someone to just kos because they're bored. It discourages new players and casual players to continue playing and takes nothing away from hardcore gamers. Besides, if they're so hardcore why are they so afraid of a 500m warning? Something like this is ALREADY IN THE GAME, I'm suggesting to make the range bigger. Even a mod on this forum thought the range should be larger: Look: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/24163-range-on-bandit-heartbeat/

Edited December 31, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[jan3sobieski 32]

KOS is not some bug or feature that requires fixing. Its PVP if you can't deal with PVP then go play Hello Kitty. Its freedom of choice. Anyone can do whatever want to survive even if that means KOS.

 

But it's NOT a choice anymore, Roughly 90% or more of encounters are kos. How is this a choice?

[jan3sobieski 32]

KoS isn't a "problem" its not even a built in game-play mechanic, its a social tendency that evolved from the freedom given to us in the game. If you're going to complain about KoS or even consider it a problem you might as well ask Rocket to get rid of the zombies

 

Why are you taking it to the extreme? "ask Rocket to get rid of the zombies" That's not even a fair comparison. The game is perfectly fine in all other aspects in my opinion. We could use more weapons, hunting, more zombies, fishing maybe? ;)

 

The only thing that's frustrating are the encounters with other players. Most of which kos because, as someone mentioned, they're bored. Because of this social tendency everyone is more or less forced to kos just in case. It's hard in this to form any sort of cooperation this way.

Edited December 31, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[Shadyfizzle 80]

I'm saying that KoS and the threat of being shot by another player is just a big a part of the game as zombies. Regardless of how much content is added to keep people busy there is always going to be KoS. Short of making a safe zone there is always going to be some guy who immediately goes for a gun then just starts hunting people.

[jan3sobieski 32]

I'm saying that KoS and the threat of being shot by another player is just a big a part of the game as zombies. Regardless of how much content is added to keep people busy there is always going to be KoS. Short of making a safe zone there is always going to be some guy who immediately goes for a gun then just starts hunting people.

 

And there is nothing in my proposed system to change any of that! Any which way you play, as survivor or a bandit you can still kos! The only difference is that it would be a little bit easier for me to identify someone who MIGHT be friendly. They could still kill me if they wanted to. Nothing would prevent that. What this would help with is getting away from ppl who mindlessly just kill everything they see because they're bored.

Edited December 31, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[Shadyfizzle 80]

The idea you purpose isn't terrible and clearly you put some thought into it, but it will never work in this game. Dayz is about freedom, that every player starts the same as the other. Choosing a class like bandit or survivor in which the way you play the game will be affected by that choice goes against that freedom. The karma system can never have such a serious consequence such as after 3-4 kills as a survivor you die. Plus having a bandit detect system would never be implemented as it gives an esp warning that would be completely unrealistic. Besides, people like to change their play style as they get better geared or as their familiarity with the game progresses. My character has been alive since the character wipe with the second patch, since then ive killed a dozen or so players since i got bored, but then i wen't and started helping new spawns. I feel that your system would rely too heavily on the player sticking to a play style.

[teufel937 49]

I mean honestly do you think EVERYONE would lend a helping hand in this situation (state of the environment in the game) no one would trust each other, 7 of 10 people would kill without question, it is a sad thing but meeting a new person is always a gamble, study them from a distance, then pass judgement. This is a SURVIVAL game, would you welcome someone in with open arms if you were roaming the lands of Chernarus.

[tingkagol 9]

The only way to influence the frequency of KoS is through the environment.

 

harsher environment = survivor cooperation

Edited December 31, 2013 by tingkagol

[teufel937 49]

The only way to influence the frequency of KoS is through the environment.

 

harsher environment = survivor cooperation

I believe once the weather is more demanding on the body and more hoards of zombies, cooperation will grow, but as of now, it is still the Alpha, judge people from a distance then introduce yourself from afar, watch how they react, then make your move.

[jan3sobieski 32]

The idea you purpose isn't terrible and clearly you put some thought into it, but it will never work in this game. Dayz is about freedom, that every player starts the same as the other. Choosing a class like bandit or survivor in which the way you play the game will be affected by that choice goes against that freedom. The karma system can never have such a serious consequence such as after 3-4 kills as a survivor you die. Plus having a bandit detect system would never be implemented as it gives an esp warning that would be completely unrealistic. Besides, people like to change their play style as they get better geared or as their familiarity with the game progresses. My character has been alive since the character wipe with the second patch, since then ive killed a dozen or so players since i got bored, but then i wen't and started helping new spawns. I feel that your system would rely too heavily on the player sticking to a play style.

 

How about forget the whole karma thing and just use the existing system but increase the range of bandit being identified? Anyone who has ever killed with their current character would be labeled by the game as a bandit (as it is now) and anyone who hasn't killed anyone yet would know this within 500m range (currently the range is about 10-20m - not large enough to even get a chance)

[jan3sobieski 32]

I mean honestly do you think EVERYONE would lend a helping hand in this situation (state of the environment in the game) no one would trust each other, 7 of 10 people would kill without question, it is a sad thing but meeting a new person is always a gamble, study them from a distance, then pass judgement. This is a SURVIVAL game, would you welcome someone in with open arms if you were roaming the lands of Chernarus.

 

You calling this a gamble is a bit off. I wouldn't call it that anymore if more than 90% of players kos. You can study them from a distance all you want, your judgement in 90% of the cases is "I should kill him before he kills me first." Don't even bother telling me this is not the case.

[Sooden 301]

we love these threads :) To fix random KOS team p and use bait (a bambi), them kill the KOSer, good fun, my friend got a KOSers kitted rifle this way :P

 

as a medic, i didnt like  putting 5 pistol round into the ass but :P

[Shadyfizzle 80]

I think there should be some subtle indication to how the player plays, but if you're able to identify bandits at 500m, whether with a heart beat or with bandit clothes, that gives them a stark disadvantage. I think the whole heart beat thing is to prevent you from meeting up with a random player then turning your back and getting murdered, thats why the distance is so low. It isn't really there to prevent or deter KoS. It is a balancing issue on how large to make that distance, but i think the whole heart beat thing when making direct visual contact is a good subtle way of telling what kind of player they are

[JohnTheCynic (DayZ) 5]

A lot of people have nailed the point on the head, and yes: imposing limitations upon survivors and bandits is just downright silly.

 

However, I do agree that KoS just for the sake of killing is pretty damn lame. A fair amount of people preach about immersion and reality, and I'll be damned that I get sniped in Cherno and the guy just hides my body or keeps on moving instead of poaching upon the stuff he gained from killing me. This will, of course, be rectified in later patches, I would assume. Roaming zombies would make it much more worth killing and actually looting the victim.

 

Also, another problem with KoS (and no, I don't mean a bandit killing me or killing in self-defence) is fresh spawns having the mentality that they have nothing to lose. Off the top of my head, if you enable a short cooldown period after dying (let's say, you cannot respawn until X amount of minutes have passed), it would drastically reduce the Hatchet Wars of Cherno. If somebody holds up a survivor, such as robbing them, the person would have a higher change of complying and saving themselves the cooldown timer. After all, I'm sure most of us would rather spend X amount of minutes scavenging after being robbed of our possessions over waiting for the cooldown to pass.

 

This is only my observation and opinion, flame if you want.

[jan3sobieski 32]

I think there should be some subtle indication to how the player plays, but if you're able to identify bandits at 500m, whether with a heart beat or with bandit clothes, that gives them a stark disadvantage. I think the whole heart beat thing is to prevent you from meeting up with a random player then turning your back and getting murdered, thats why the distance is so low. It isn't really there to prevent or deter KoS. It is a balancing issue on how large to make that distance, but i think the whole heart beat thing when making direct visual contact is a good subtle way of telling what kind of player they are

 

I think you misinterpreted the 500m. The range would be there to tell you that somewhere in the vicinity of 500m is a bandit. It won't tell you SPECIFICALLY who it is. However, if the 500m warning doesn't trigger and you meet someone on the road, you'll have a better than 50/50 chance that they might possibly be friendly.

[Shadyfizzle 80]

I get what you are saying, say you are coming up to a little town up in the NE where there aren't that many people. You get this bandit alarm, so you assume there is probably a bandit going through that little town you are approaching. Meanwhile the bandit gets no warning while he thinks he is alone in this little town. This creates a pretty large disadvantage to the bandit as you would be prepared to find someone, in effect it turns you into the hunter

[jan3sobieski 32]

I get what you are saying, say you are coming up to a little town up in the NE where there aren't that many people. You get this bandit alarm, so you assume there is probably a bandit going through that little town you are approaching. Meanwhile the bandit gets no warning while he thinks he is alone in this little town. This creates a pretty large disadvantage to the bandit as you would be prepared to find someone, in effect it turns you into the hunter

 

This would depend on what approach was utilized. But the simple explanation is this:

 

If only the bandit alarm was used and nothing else I don't see it as a big problem because it would turn a survivor into a bandit as soon as he kills the bandit. My chances of killing the bandit are slim to none if i'm a fresh spawn or if I haven't found any firearms yet (which I probably wouldn't since I'm avoiding all the military complexes)

In the off chance that I did manage to find firearms with ammo, the chances are I'm trying to play a survivor role anyways and would, again try to avoid him and avoid killing him (as again, it would turn me into one)

 

My original proposal would completely negate the disadvantage but it seems many found it complicated.

[nastjuid@gmail.com 2]

No, we won't hear you out. KoS isn't an issue that has ever been considered something that should be coded to combat, and it should absolutely never be. When you post ANYTHING suggesting a 'solution' to KoS, you're admitting to have never played the MoD, or never understood the vision of the game's development. If you're continuing to play the game while expecting development changes to enforce a more friendly environment, then you are in for a very bad time.

[jan3sobieski 32]

No, we won't hear you out. KoS isn't an issue that has ever been considered something that should be coded to combat, and it should absolutely never be. When you post ANYTHING suggesting a 'solution' to KoS, you're admitting to have never played the MoD, or never understood the vision of the game's development. If you're continuing to play the game while expecting development changes to enforce a more friendly environment, then you are in for a very bad time.

 

Let me guess, you didn't even read my whole post. Doesn't matter.

 

Why don't we just put this whole KoS thing up for a vote within this forum community and see where we end up. Judging by the responses in this thread, the vote would be in favor of leaving things the way they are so no harm done, right?

 

[Edit] Oh, look! Here's one! http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/160525-how-to-authentically-strike-the-right-balance-of-pvp-in-dayz-sa/

Edited December 31, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[Wolfguarde 108]

Personally I see no need for a karma system. All things considered, DayZ is a hardcore survival/apocalypse simulator. It wouldn't be if people were discouraged by game mechanics from killing one another.

That being said, I think having cumulative item degradation acceleration on bandits who kill players with little or no offensive capability (ie. new spawns) isn't a bad idea.

[lipemr 160]

KoS does not need to be fixed.  Welcome to your first sandbox game.  One of the only true sandbox games made in this pathetic time for the gaming industry.

 

DayZ mod has been going strong since it released long before the standalone, don't worry about it dying anytime soon.  Implementing your idea will make this game nothing more than what is already out on the market, shit.  The reason it is so popular is the great gaming experience that FREEDOM provides.  Take that away and the game is a glitchy peace of crap.

 

The one and ONLY thing dayz has going for it is the true freedom to play anyway you want.  It would completely ruin the excitement of the game to do anything to KOS.

 

Also rocket has explained many times before he is doing nothing to take away the freedom for players to kill whoever they want.

 

And god bless rocket for his hardcore attitude and for creating one of the most anticipated games of the year.  What did he make 5 million dollars the first weekend?  He wouldn't have touched that amount if the game had restrictions.

yeah, and that's why the game is going to die, it's the same shit as the mod, hell, there's even less stuff in the game than in the mod. And the mod's being around for 1 year, how much do you think dayz will last keeping the exact same mod's concept? The vanilla mod is already dying by itself.

[lipemr 160]

the point is that theres just no advantages on not killing people, that's not realistic, in real life there's all the psicological aspects involved, you wont kill someone just for the lulz unless you're a psycho, and i dont think everybody would be a rampaging psycho on a post apocallyptical environment

[quobble 175]

Serial killers can look like any kind of person. You cant tell who is a killer/bandit and whos not.

Why do people come to DayZ and want to change the basics?

 

I am contra KOS but I do kill on sight when I am being engaged by others.

 

Having a Karma system wont do anything good. Look at the mod. Survivors in survivor outfit were serial killers from their first spawn on. A hero that went to help survivors was shot by those, so the Hero had to defend himself, killing survivors and eventually becoming a Bandit himself.

 

...jeez

 

/edit

also those warning messages..."bandits are roaming the area" how damn arcade do you want this game to be?!

want "there is a sniper watching you" or "there is a guy with an axe around the corner" too??

Edited December 31, 2013 by =GS=Quobble

[Mannyrue 9]

Serial killers can look like any kind of person. You cant tell who is a killer/bandit and whos not.

Why do people come to DayZ and want to change the basics?

 

I am contra KOS but I do kill on sight when I am being engaged by others.

 

Having a Karma system wont do anything good. Look at the mod. Survivors in survivor outfit were serial killers from their first spawn on. A hero that went to help survivors was shot by those, so the Hero had to defend himself, killing survivors and eventually becoming a Bandit himself.

 

...jeez

Exactly! my charter as he look's right now look's like the pyro more or less from TF, and I am one of the friendliest people you will come across, now that guy who may look like a fresh spawn is the one you may have to just worry about killing you, I hate people in game's thinking just cause you are decked out and look a certain way make's you into a bandit of sort's while in reality you are the one who played it smart and stuck to the shadows and got in and got out of places un-seen..

I do not think anything need's to be changed with this game, I have always played this game as a word of mouth, if I see a charter running off and screaming "Watch out sniper on the hill killing poeple" I know screw this I am not going into that area, I also stay close to the tree line's and scout ahead as well and see if the area may be a hot bed of people being killed.If I think I can sneak around up onto a bandit and take him out I will if I can not figure out where that person may be I will head in the other direction...

People have got to stop complaning about people that kos tho really it is not going away, if you hate that concept then, do not play this game, move on to something else.

[teufel937 49]

You calling this a gamble is a bit off. I wouldn't call it that anymore if more than 90% of players kos. You can study them from a distance all you want, your judgement in 90% of the cases is "I should kill him before he kills me first." Don't even bother telling me this is not the case.

I have met quite a few people that haven't KoS, I took my time and slowly introduced myself, weapon was at the low ready, I told them I was not a bandit, I will admit I have died doing this, but that gives new meaning and a breathe of fresh air to the game. It gets extremely boring once you are locked and stocked.