Just wanted to take a stab at clarifying KOS misconceptions

[triage 117]

1st quote: You say it's "just a game", which is a silly argument. That's like Rocket adding jets and tanks in DayZ then telling the community that it's fine because it's just a game. 

 

2nd quote: You say you don't want playstyles to be dictated by kids and teens over the internet, yet you're doing just that; a contradiction. 

 

3rd quote: As I already said, DayZ aims for realism. It's not even close to being like CoD. Therefor, you cannot compare the two. 

What the hell are you even going on about? You can compare what ever you want to what ever you want. They compare republicans to democrats and there nothing a like by far.

[triage 117]

Well, I killed 2 armed players with a fire axe. I spotted them from about I would say 300 meters. I gave chase, using concealment and cover when I could. I managed to get within 15 meters of them. Skilfully positioned myself and watched. They were scouting the area ahead of us from some rocks. They broke off from each other, 1 of the guys was alone. I saw my chance at took it, I ran up and axed him in the head, he died instantly. The other guy, fearing for his life from the unknown assailant(ME! :D) ran off and took some cover. I hid behind some rocks, making sure I had my eyes on him the whole time, I navigated around the rocks, keeping myself concealed. He was coming back for me. He froze for a second, with his weapon raised looking for me. He turns his back, I strike. He took a few blows, but nothing fatal yet. He runs off, and I watch as he bleeds out attempting to bandage himself. I sit back comfortably, knowing I just prevented my own death, and possibly others. I killed them not because I wanted to, but to see if I could. That was the real thrill, taking the 2 of them down in a quick ambush. 

All that matters is that you got a kick out of it. Glad to see you enjoying the game bud.

[floj 393]

To be fair, I think OP had some good ideas about game design mechanisms, which *could* be added to the game.

 

Pretty reasonable for a post about an alpha product no?

 

Then the KOS kiddies got their panties in a twist.

 

 

To expand on those initial ideas, something like the fear mechanism from the Amnesia series would be kinda interesting - although over debilitating as they implemented in that particular series.

 

 

**minor grammar edit

Edited December 28, 2013 by phlOgistOn

[Inception. 9443]

People shouldn't make threads about things they don't like though. 

 

That is not very logical. If no topics were made about hackers, combat loggers and server hoppers, then it would appear everyone is accepting of them, yes?

[fathairybeast 246]

I 100% agree with you man. People shouldn't make threads about things they don't like though. It's a bit hypocritical when somebody says we should do things like real life, when someone is complain about how they don't like something. Cry me a river, wake up to the real world. (Not going towards you, other people in the topic **Cough Cough topic started Cough COugh**

 

The project is still in alpha phase.  Unless something has changed, the Dayz dev team welcomes constructive criticism.  I think you're trying a little too hard to make this thread personal; thus far you've tried to start flame wars with everyone in the thread you don't agree with.  Don't get emotional, this is all just constructive criticism.

[triage 117]

That is not very logical. If no topics were made about hackers, combat loggers and server hoppers, then it would appear everyone is accepting of them, yes?

Well, I do see where you're coming from, but I'm talking about a complaining view point. Like the little things that have no reason or purpose to be shown public.

[Knightmare (DayZ) 109]

Killing on Sight will always happen obviously, however I am adamantly opposed to any form of punishment or reward system for any particular play style.

 

I'll neutralize anyone who I deem a threat. I try to avoid situations where I am not dictating the situation. But if I round a corner and someone is there, they'll eat lead. I don't take chances. I don't react well to being surprised. If I'm romping around the coast and I see someone, I'll just avoid them or move away. If I'm somewhere more risky, such as NW Airfield, the second I see anyone and if I'm in a position to engage them, I will.

 

That said I would agree that the referenced "COD" mindset is very apparent, in similar fashion to what happened in the mod. However you also have to realize that this game is currently devoid of zombies. Rocket's talked about wanting hundreds of zombies crawling and groaning around cities, and that plus their new AI (which is still obviously WIP) will significantly change the dynamics of the game.

 

The real issue is why should anyone /NOT/ kill on sight? Why should anyone want to work with a random stranger? The problem is that currently no one needs to. If you change the dynamics of the game from "Do I want to team up" to "I NEED to team up to get that loot", you add value to a players life. Albeit a selfish one of "what can you do for me", but that within itself is a strong motivator, if the person otherwise would be unable to secure the loot in question. Change WANT to NEED.

 

In my opinion until Zombies are implemented as the lethal, roaming, and destructive force they need to be, we cannot address reducing Player versus Player activities. We just do not know how the game will play out.

 

This brings another point. Leave the coast. Sure you're still likely to be killed on sight further up north, however you're significantly more likely to run into these undesirables on the coast. Balota, Cherno, Elektro.. all bad news.

 

All in all..

• No Zombies. Hopefully Rocket can live up to his goal of wanting tons of zombies, and making them an actual threat - unlike the mod in which they were mostly a joke or inconvenience.
• Easy to get Gear - which is greatly linked to the above.
• Anti-Server Hopping systems not currently functional/implemented
• Anti-Combat logging systems not currently functional/implemented

 

Add those things together and you're left with the following situation:

I'm geared. I'm well supplied. There's nothing I need, no zombies to kill. What do I do now?

 

And for a lot of people that answer is to kill people on the coast.

[Death_Dealer 3155]

What the hell are you even going on about? You can compare what ever you want to what ever you want. They compare republicans to democrats and there nothing a like by far.

 

...

 

 

[triage 117]

Your just off topic now, please stop. 

[Antediluvian 7]

While I agree with you so much, i'll play the role of devil's advocate for a second there. People KOS a lot because:

There isn't much else to do right now.

I'm not sure how big an issue it was in the days of the Mod, I myself was too sneaky to be ever caught by anyone.
But right now, I hardly see any zombies in the towns of the mainland. No danger of zombies if you have a gun and 2 legs to run, loot is plentiful, loot camping is possible and character wipes will be a common occurence I imagine.

And remember!! If you hate KOS there are some servers that have strict rules about it. Dayzrp is a good example, I used to hang out there before the standalone. Not sure how they're doing now, probably setting up for SA.

[fathairybeast 246]

I'll neutralize anyone who I deem a threat. I try to avoid situations where I am not dictating the situation. But if I round a corner and someone is there, they'll eat lead. I don't take chances. I don't react well to being surprised. If I'm romping around the coast and I see someone, I'll just avoid them or move away. If I'm somewhere more risky, such as NW Airfield, the second I see anyone and if I'm in a position to engage them, I will

 

I didn't word my post very well.  I didn't mean KOS, I meant griefing.  If someone scares the bejesus out of me I'm likely to shoot first and ask questions later as well.

 

 

 

In my opinion until Zombies are implemented as the lethal, roaming, and destructive force they need to be, we cannot address reducing Player versus Player activities. We just do not know how the game will play out.

 

Fair point.  Maybe my suggestions are better addressed as a last ditch effort.

 

Good post, hopefully we can keep that sexy juice flowing instead of the nonsense posted this far.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

i think whats going on is that the majority of the community mixes coast retards that never leave the coast but just kill for lols with the real KOS, which in my book is i see the guy and think " if i let him live will he shoot me in the back?" we have to admit it, it comes to point where we have to make that  choice to survive. when the loot rate is what it should be that choice will be heavier.  But again this is a game no reason to be overworked by it 

 

I think it's you who are putting yourself in the wrong group. When you kill someone because you decided it was the safest thing to do, that's not killing on sight. Killing on sight is exactly what you said, coastal retards who make it their mission to kill anyone they see.

 

A big problem is people assume everytime they get killed randomly that it was kill on sight. While it could be someone you were about to run into acting for their own survival. I'm careful not to assume too much. I mostly base my opinions of KOS on experiences where I've been a third party, or when I've been able to talk to my killer and find out his motives. A lot of the time people kill you simply out of fear, which is great. It's those few times where you're unarmed, no threat at all, on the beach and some douche just has to run up and hatchet you for your flashlight battery. Those happen all too often.

[Death_Dealer 3155]

Your just off topic now, please stop. 

 

The whoosh is extremely strong here

 

 

I also want to make it clear that I'm not at all against murder in DayZ. It's just random and nonsensical killing that, well, makes no sense. If you decide to go on a random killing spree for fun, so be it. But there should be some penalties for doing so. 

[reapers239 57]

Nightmare pretty summed it up. Even with the elements of game added and polished there will KOS still, and i am pretty sure when it happens it will more screwed over lol

[floj 393]

Another thing to consider (in real life at least) would be what could a new survivor potentially bring to your group... did you just shoot the only experienced surgeon on the island? Maybe the only guy who could have MacGuyvered a working radio set together from a box of matches and some wire or patched up that battered 2CV...

 

Or ya know, just kill em and camp on that roof until the survivors stop walking past for you to grab their supplies

[reapers239 57]

I think it's you who are putting yourself in the wrong group. When you kill someone because you decided it was the safest thing to do, that's not killing on sight. Killing on sight is exactly what you said, coastal retards who make it their mission to kill anyone they see.

 

A big problem is people assume everytime they get killed randomly that it was kill on sight. While it could be someone you were about to run into acting for their own survival. I'm careful not to assume too much. I mostly base my opinions of KOS on experiences where I've been a third party, or when I've been able to talk to my killer and find out his motives. A lot of the time people kill you simply out of fear, which is great. It's those few times where you're unarmed, no threat at all, on the beach and some douche just has to run up and hatchet you for your flashlight battery. Those happen all too often.

 

 

i consider KOS from the moment i made eye contact on the target, sometimes you get to choose sometimes you dont specially when you turn the corner and just let the reflex go if it is not your buddy.

 

If you and the stranger have exchanged words and alright and the other guy kills you, that aint KOS thats is planned murder

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

i consider KOS from the moment i made eye contact on the target, sometimes you get to choose sometimes you dont specially when you turn the corner and just let the reflex go if it is not your buddy.

 

If you and the stranger have exchanged words and alright and the other guy kills you, that aint KOS thats is planned murder

 

To me, KOS mentality is when some fully geared guy is in the treeline and see's an unarmed guy running the opposite way in an open field, instead of observing him leaving, the KOS guy will lay down and practice his sniper skills. It's all about going out of your way, even putting yourself in danger, to get that sweet sweet kill. To them, killing is the goal, survival comes second.

Edited December 28, 2013 by bad_mojo

[fathairybeast 246]

Another thing to consider (in real life at least) would be what could a new survivor potentially bring to your group... did you just shoot the only experienced surgeon on the island? Maybe the only guy who could have MacGuyvered a working radio set together from a box of matches and some wire or patched up that battered 2CV...

 

  Specialties in Dayz.  That would be hot.

[Daemonkid 493]

Right now though. Killing is the goal. Get better at it, do it in more ingenious ways. Have fun with it. Simple as that, embrace it. And when more interesting things to do in the world are released, go do that. But always remember, a wall of lead can always be waiting around the corner. 

[reapers239 57]

To me, KOS mentality is when some fully geared guy is in the treeline and see's an unarmed guy running the opposite way in an open field, instead of observing him leaving, the KOS guy will lay down and practice his sniper skills. It's all about going out of your way, even putting yourself in danger, to get that sweet sweet kill. To them, killing is the goal, survival comes second.

 

Thats the thing everybody wants to KOS black and white when it isnt, in a sense the unarmed guy could have looted something he needed thus it becomes survival first.  

[Ineedscoffee 464]

Oh I grief the hell out of these call of duty estars. I make it so they cannot find me to kill me. Nothing makes a twitch streamer rage more then not finding someone to shoot at.

Now if I bump into you up north, we have two options:

A. You have a weapon ready, and I shoot you.

B. You walk away, I walk away, or I shoot you.

If I stumble on you, I will take the iniative to leave peacefully first. My Fnx is always at the rest position, only takes one right click to bring that reddot to level.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Thats the thing everybody wants to KOS black and white when it isnt, in a sense the unarmed guy could have looted something he needed thus it becomes survival first.  

 

Except that's not the reason he killed someone. It's your justification of it. I'm not saying it's black and white, I'm just saying I've observed this type of behavior for over a year in the mod and it hasn't changed at all in standalone.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

this post is directed to everyone defending the KOS epidemic on dayz as a reflection of human nature.  also, to those who say that any artificial disincentive for murder coded into the game is tantamount to sacrilege.

 

Let's get the most important part of that whole argument cleared up.  No, human nature is not to shoot fuckall everyone on site for fun.  Someone who grief killed for fun in real life would, by definition, be a sociopath - in the fullest sense of the word.  How many people are sociopaths in real life?  Mental health experts estimate app. 1-3% of the US population are socipaths.  And that's benchmarked from an asshole country.  Imagine how low that number is in some place like canada or sweden where folks are taught Gensler's Golden Rule in utero.  How does that stat compare to the number of Dayz murderers?  Not very well, I suspect.  No, I don't believe dayz attracts sociopaths - none of the folks I've played with consistently (a few dozen, give or take) have shown the trademarks of sociopathy save 1 or 2.  But yes, many of them (and myself, a handful of times) have killed others on sight simply for shits (sorry, i regretted it afterwards...usually).  Why?  Because it's a videogame and as such you can kill someone without compunction.  Worst case scenario: Someone who just wanted to relax after work got their day ruined.  Best case: You make a spoiled brat rage.  Either way, no substantive harm is done.

 

In real life there would be more dire consequences to your actions.  Your pangs of conscience (unless you're part of that 1-3% who failed preschool) would cause you some substantial grief.  You'd have to consider things that aren't much fun to consider: Did he have a family?  What if he's taking care of someone who's bed-ridden? How do I know he would have hurt me, maybe he would have helped?  Sure, I can talk a big game about how killing someone to survive IRL is one of those things that's "just gotta get done ya know.  real talk, survivn bich" but I think that's bravado speaking, not clairvoyance.  The vast majority of us would give a much longer pause before pulling that trigger in a real life situation.

 

But again, it's just a game.  As such, I don't think it's "ruining realism" by adding artificial disincentives for murder.  It's the only way to account for the loss of a tormented conscience a legitimate murder would bring you.

 

My suggestion?:  Nausea, Vomiting, dizziness, anxiety, depression (and with that comes a weakened immune system) subsequently after committing a murder.  These are hallmarks not uncommonly reported after a person kills for the first time, even after killing in self defense.

 

But sociopaths, don't worry!  Because another, ancillary addition to the system could be "resistance" to the psychological and physical effects.  Say you're really a sociopathic douche in real life and you'd like to play like you'd live... well, if you manage to kill enough people in one life you would gain resistance to the aforementioned symptoms.  At least until you die, then you'd have to acclimate your character to murder again.

 

In closure, I don't think implementation of a murder disincentive is absolutely necessary; I still like the game, even with douchey wanks making freshspawns drink bleach while they sit back and giggle.  But it would even out some of the complaints instead of taking the lazy way out and pretending like you've done any sociological research by saying "fuk bruh, just humn nature".  This way both parties would have something to lose, not just the nice guys (and gals).  It would also balance out the fact that one of the quintessential demotivators for murder in real life (conscience) isn't nearly as prevalent in a video game.

 

/rant.  now it's time to go binge on some gay porn. read an exhilerating, non-fiction account of something.

/me sigh.

 

Your post started as something i thought was going to be interesting. But like all the others before you... you don't know anything about this subject.

[reapers239 57]

Except that's not the reason he killed someone. It's your justification of it. I'm not saying it's black and white, I'm just saying I've observed this type of behavior for over a year in the mod and it hasn't changed at all in standalone.

 

There is a reason and that is he wanted to, he was ready to. everybody here wanting or not will be ready to pull the trigger saying it not so is pure hypocrisy. Everybody is in the look out for their self preservation this is a human behavior that we can predict, once we find that the threat is not a threat then we go into moral details. 

It got worst because mods came out, privet hives came out with 600+ vehicles and so on but the primary reason is what i said above

[floj 393]

  Specialties in Dayz.  That would be hot.

 

Just added some thoughts on this in another thread: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158954-the-value-of-a-character/