[SA] Increase the consequences of death.

[raxbit 0]

Reading through this thread I like where this is headed my personal thoughts would be to have all skills open, whenever you perform an action the action is linked to an appropriate skill which increases each time the action is done.

 

Each skill would have a bonus to the action its assigned when the skill has reached a certain point. e.g after bandaging 50 times, you will bandage 0.5 seconds faster. Other possibilities could include:

Reloading - after 50 reloads, you will be able to reload 0.25s faster, 0.5s after 200 reloads

Gun Care - maintaining a weapon will result in slower item degradation 

Athlete - after running for 2 hours in game time, increase the amount of time you can sprint without running out of breath

Escape - after being handcuffed 10 times, gain the ability to slip out of handcuffs after 3 mins of being handcuffed

Repair - after fixing 10 engines, gain the ability to repair engines faster, and use scrap parts to repair damage

Chemist - if junk medicine is added then after taking drugs 50 times, ability to craft drugs out of various chemicals

Improvising - after crafting 100 items, you gain access to a few unique recipes, having a degree of skill in particular field will add a unique item in that field i.e. having improvising and gun care will allow you to make an improvised gun with low durability

Hunter - after gutting 50 animals, you will gain an extra meat from each gutting

Odor - after being attacked by 100 different zombies, zombies will be slightly less aware of you making it easier to sneak

Melee - after 100 melee strikes melee weapon will degrade slower, after 500 the weapon will break bones more often (with select weapons)

 

I think you get the idea, the numbers here are not important they are just to illustrate my point. Each skill would simply be a counter for how many times you've done it therefore your accumulated experience in using the skill, which would provide small bonuses that would be added incrementally to the player so its almost unnoticeable but upon death it will be apparent, there would be no way for a player to check their progress of each skill they would simply benefit from long term survival playing the way they want to play. 

 

Among-st the many possible skills players can achieve there would be a select few that are much harder to achieve and provide abilities to do things in easier ways. An example to illustrate my point: after achieving say high skill in medicine, herb gathering and improvising you could produce makeshift pain killers as an alternative to finding a hospital and looking for pain killers using herbs and water.

 

Point is doing something alot results in an increased ability in doing that, you die you lose all progress on these skills and start fresh. More thought could be put into skills that benefit others more than yourself that could be attained not necessarily by playing with others so even a lone wolf could prove useful in a tight spot to a team.

 

I also agree about the ideas on maintaining weapons, a more fleshed out idea i have on this would be to have a hidden attribute that can only be seen by those with gun care skill, this could be implemented simply as a clean gun which could be done with rags, as you do it more you'll know how to apply oil and discern if weapons found in loot is valuable or not instead of finding out the hard way when you go to shoot a zombie and your gun jams. This sort of logic could be applied to alot of things such as having a keen sense of smell you can tell if food is close to being rotten but not quite their yet so they would know what foods to eat first and help a team know what should be ignored and what should be taken.

 

Any thoughts?

[tlane 17]

I think the reward (loot) of the killed player is not the reason for KoS it's just an additional reward... but the most rewarding thing to player who KoS is to just kill another player, because it's a game, it's possible and it's convenient to kill another player if you see one (one-shot dead + no negative repercussion at all). So the only possible solution to prevent KoS is to make this kind of behavior very inconvenient.

 

 

I think those kind of players don't give a shit about consequences after they are dead (maybe they even think that they will never die or something), but maybe those players will more frequently stop playing the game when running into them (wich would be nice) so maybe it's feasible to install a short death-timer (There shouldn't be a way to avoid this timer) of about 10-15 Minutes (Until your body despawns), so a player can't loot his own body on his own and can't respawn that frequently, maybe that will solve some other problems too ^^.

 

Remember my argument does not refer to players who like to KoS (bandits + sadists) so none of what you are referring to applies to my hypothesis. 

 

I don't like the idea of punishing KoS, and that is not what the goal of this thread is.

Edited December 27, 2013 by tlane

[tlane 17]

Reading through this thread I like where this is headed my personal thoughts would be to have all skills open, whenever you perform an action the action is linked to an appropriate skill which increases each time the action is done.

 

Each skill would have a bonus to the action its assigned when the skill has reached a certain point. e.g after bandaging 50 times, you will bandage 0.5 seconds faster. Other possibilities could include:

Reloading - after 50 reloads, you will be able to reload 0.25s faster, 0.5s after 200 reloads

Gun Care - maintaining a weapon will result in slower item degradation 

Athlete - after running for 2 hours in game time, increase the amount of time you can sprint without running out of breath

Escape - after being handcuffed 10 times, gain the ability to slip out of handcuffs after 3 mins of being handcuffed

Repair - after fixing 10 engines, gain the ability to repair engines faster, and use scrap parts to repair damage

Chemist - if junk medicine is added then after taking drugs 50 times, ability to craft drugs out of various chemicals

Improvising - after crafting 100 items, you gain access to a few unique recipes, having a degree of skill in particular field will add a unique item in that field i.e. having improvising and gun care will allow you to make an improvised gun with low durability

Hunter - after gutting 50 animals, you will gain an extra meat from each gutting

Odor - after being attacked by 100 different zombies, zombies will be slightly less aware of you making it easier to sneak

Melee - after 100 melee strikes melee weapon will degrade slower, after 500 the weapon will break bones more often (with select weapons)

 

I think you get the idea, the numbers here are not important they are just to illustrate my point. Each skill would simply be a counter for how many times you've done it therefore your accumulated experience in using the skill, which would provide small bonuses that would be added incrementally to the player so its almost unnoticeable but upon death it will be apparent, there would be no way for a player to check their progress of each skill they would simply benefit from long term survival playing the way they want to play. 

 

Among-st the many possible skills players can achieve there would be a select few that are much harder to achieve and provide abilities to do things in easier ways. An example to illustrate my point: after achieving say high skill in medicine, herb gathering and improvising you could produce makeshift pain killers as an alternative to finding a hospital and looking for pain killers using herbs and water.

 

Point is doing something alot results in an increased ability in doing that, you die you lose all progress on these skills and start fresh. More thought could be put into skills that benefit others more than yourself that could be attained not necessarily by playing with others so even a lone wolf could prove useful in a tight spot to a team.

 

I also agree about the ideas on maintaining weapons, a more fleshed out idea i have on this would be to have a hidden attribute that can only be seen by those with gun care skill, this could be implemented simply as a clean gun which could be done with rags, as you do it more you'll know how to apply oil and discern if weapons found in loot is valuable or not instead of finding out the hard way when you go to shoot a zombie and your gun jams. This sort of logic could be applied to alot of things such as having a keen sense of smell you can tell if food is close to being rotten but not quite their yet so they would know what foods to eat first and help a team know what should be ignored and what should be taken.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I really like the system you laid out, it's simple and for the most part difficult to abuse. We should take some time to identify abuses and consider possible glitches in the games code that allows for abuse. (someone sitting there reloading their gun over and over again while no one is around). 

 

What do you think of a combination system? Two requirements have to be met for each skill improvement and are reset for the next skill improvement. Survival time + 50 reloads. Perhaps add in exploration elements as well.

 

Bandaging 50 times + 24 hours of survival time, you will bandage 0.5 seconds faster. Other possibilities could include:

Reloading - after 50 reloads + 24 hours of survival time, you will be able to reload 0.25s faster, 0.5s after 200 reloads + 72 hours of survival time (after first level gain)

Caveat: A reload counts when the player has fired 50 rounds and reloads (prevents reload spamming, or switching between empty and full magazines)

I think we would also break down reload skill for each kind of reloading mechanism. Mosin reloading requires a completely different skill set and should scale differently. 

 

Gun Care - maintaining a weapon will result in slower item degradation 

Athlete - after running for 2 hours in game time, increase the amount of time you can sprint without running out of breath

Escape - after being handcuffed 10 times (each handcuffing must be performed by a different player, the variable storing which players have handcuffed you persists after death ie obtaining this skill in the next life requires you to find 10 more players to handcuff you), gain the ability to slip out of handcuffs after 3 mins of being handcuffed. It may be sensible to buff this skill.

Repair - after fixing 10 engines, gain the ability to repair engines faster, and use scrap parts to repair damage

Chemist - if junk medicine is added then after taking drugs 50 times, ability to craft drugs out of various chemicals

Improvising - after crafting 100 items (including at least 5 of each possible craft able items), you gain access to a few unique recipes, having a degree of skill in particular field will add a unique item in that field i.e. having improvising and gun care will allow you to make an improvised gun with low durability

Hunter - after gutting 50 animals, you will gain an extra meat from each gutting

Odor - after being attacked by 100 different zombies, zombies will be slightly less aware of you making it easier to sneak

(not sure I like this skill - seems overpowered and we don't know if it makes sense with the mythos: do zombies smell us? )

Melee - after 100 melee strikes melee weapon will degrade slower, after 500 the weapon will break bones/cause bleeding/knockdown more often (with select weapons)

 

Some additions:

Lock picking (rests on the addition of a locked door mechanic): after unlock 50 unique doors the player is less likely to break his lock picking tools (50% down to 10%), after unlocking 200 unique doors the player is faster at unlocking the door.

Nutritionist after eating 50 fresh fruits the player gets a 300% to energy acquired from eating fresh fruit

Iron belly after eating 50 rotten fruit the player is 1/10 as likely to get sick from it's consumption.

Pack rat (player learns how to pack his bags and pockets better) after 24 hours of non-consecutive, elapsed game time with a completely full inventory the player will receive a 10% bonus to his inventory. This bonus applies directly to each item with storage and always rounds up to the nearest extra slot: an 8 slot vest would become a 9 slot vest. a 30 slot bag would become a 33 slot bag. 4 slot jeans would become 5 slots jeans. etc.

 

More suggestions and modifications to the current suggestions would be awesome. Remember all skills are lost on death. Skills should be subtle bonuses, nothing game breaking. Watch dog this and discuss what are game breaking bonuses.

 

Unhek also mentioned potentially adding natural born talents. Would it make sense if talents were then bonuses to these skill growths? Or innately having a handful of skills?

Edited December 27, 2013 by tlane

[King of kong 1117]

What if it's not a foreign beach and you're Chernarussian?  :huh:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:

[tlane 17]

What if it's not a foreign beach and you're Chernarussian?  :huh:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:  :emptycan:

 

The game doesn't tell us either way. Foreign in the sense I used it just means unrecognizable. So, for any player when they first start playing the beach is not one they have ever seen before. Unless they are an honest to god Chernarussian in real life (like you're suggesting?). 

[raxbit 0]

If the innate ability thing were to be added i would suggest it only speeding up the learning process of one or two skills nothing more. So some might only need to meet 3/4 of the requirement to increase a skill this is not far from how it is in real life.

Edited December 27, 2013 by raxbit

[Inception. 9443]

Moved to the General Discussion (Standalone) for better viewing.

[glowfow@hotmail.com 55]

Not to partypoop or anything, but I like the idea in the link below a little better, the problem with your system is that certain skills become grindable and you don't want it to lead to a situation where you're gunning down every animal to gain a few points in gutting and skinning animals.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158609-sa-suggestion-introduction-of-microskills/

Edited December 27, 2013 by JoostVoordeel

[theszerdi 50]

Simple solution: Time alive bonuses.

 

You want a non-grindable reward for staying alive and a larger death penalty. Give bonuses for time alive in-game. After surviving one hour you get 0.1 seconds off all actions. 5 hours alive and in-game gets you 0.25 seconds off all actions. 10 hours gives you 0.5 seconds off all actions. 20 hours gives you 1.0 seconds off, etc.

 

You could come up with some other bonuses too, I'm sure. Like 10 hours in-game lowers your chance of zombies spotting you by 15% or decreases chance of infection in all cases by 10%. Maybe 20 hours in-game gives you better night vision and your screen is 15% brighter at night.

 

Now I know you're all thinking, EVERYONE WILL JUST AFK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WOODS!!11!1!!ZOMG!!1!!1

 

Another simple solution; Hard code afk detection. 15 minutes without user input = kick from server. Additionally if a character doesn't shift position by 25+ meters for 60 minutes spawn 5 zombies pre-aggro'd on them. Will people abuse this? Of course, but I doubt there will be a significant percentage of SUCCESSFULL abuses.

 

But it would be so easy to abuse!!1!1!1 Not when you think about it. Sure you can set a macro to run in a 100m circle or something similar, but YOU ARE STILL IN-GAME! Show me one person on a populated server that has had a tent go undiscovered for a week. (The only tents I've ever had unlooted for that long were glitched into rocks or walls.) Someone will eventually find them and kill them.

 

Also, most people don't know how to set up a macro like that and those who do tend to be the hardcore type who won't risk AFK death at this level of work/reward. Anyone willing to spend the time in-game (even if they're running in a circle and watching Netflix on their second monitor) are putting in the hours of work for the reward and thereby much less willing to risk death.

 

Edit to add: Many of the KOS, don't care about dying, run and gun types are young. It's a stereotype because it's true. These types of players lack the skill, hardware, and time to abuse the system I've described. 15 year old Timmy on the family PC can't leave the game running macros all the time even if he knows what a macro is.

 

Sure, Zack the college student on the IT track can and will abuse a system like this, but this is insignificant for two reasons: 1) Zack is a fairly rare type of player. 2) Even if Zack runs his macros for 20 hours a day there's a good chance his character will be killed during that time OR that he'll get killed while playing the other 4 hours.

 

If you include time alive bonuses all the way up to 72+ hours then the macro whores really CAN'T become a significant percentage of the longest alive players.

 

Edit number 2 (Bonus specific ideas):

Time Alive       Bonus

1 hour             0.1 seconds off action times

5 hours           0.25 seconds off action times

10 hours         0.5 seconds off action times and 0.25 second faster reload

20 hours         1.0 seconds off action times and 0.5 second faster reload and 15% off zombie detection

40 hours         All 20 hour bonuses + reduce chance of infection by from ANYTHING by 50%

60 hours         All previous bonuses + night vision: 15% brighter at night

80 hours         All previous bonuses + double effectiveness of all food/drink

100 hours       All previous bonuses + double effectiveness of medical supplies

150 hours       All previous bonuses + toughness: 15% damage reduction

200 hours       All previous bonuses + endurance: all movement speeds increased 10%

Edited December 27, 2013 by TheSzerdi

[raxbit 0]

Not to partypoop or anything, but I like the idea in the link below a little better, the problem with your system is that certain skills become grindable and you don't want it to lead to a situation where you're gunning down every animal to gain a few points in gutting and skinning animals.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158609-sa-suggestion-introduction-of-microskills/

 I like that idea its not too different from what i was getting at but getting a bonus for free seems too easy, though taking it into consideration the idea of preventing grinding, i think the time alive requirements will help. But lets be serious in the real world we can sit and do something over and over even like reloading a weapon but its boring besides in DayZ your life is constantly at risk you would have to do a lot of preparation of food and water before you even tried and always risk being shot in the face so people simply wouldn't be grinding all the time especially when they have no concept of how far they even progressed, my suggestion of subtle bonuses that accumulate would make it so the reward wouldn't even be noticed unless you died. Most of these bonuses would largely go unnoticed but could be the line between life and death in certain scenarios.

 

For example someone in a gun fight being able to bandage yourself and reload faster while your pinned down could mean the difference between being flanked and having time to return fire.

 

If despite my thoughts people would still grind under the harsh conditions i would not see a problem with this, everyone is entitled to there own way of playing and would actually give players a side goal that contributes to there survival. But if this is seen as a problem, There could be constraints on how many skills you can cap to there fullest and random variable target uses for each skill meaning you would learn from experience that grinding is not predictable enough to be viable but would occur naturally performing things you always do anyway. 

 

 

 

What do you think of a combination system? Two requirements have to be met for each skill improvement and are reset for the next skill improvement. Survival time + 50 reloads. Perhaps add in exploration elements as well.

 

Bandaging 50 times + 24 hours of survival time, you will bandage 0.5 seconds faster. Other possibilities could include:

Reloading - after 50 reloads + 24 hours of survival time, you will be able to reload 0.25s faster, 0.5s after 200 reloads + 72 hours of survival time (after first level gain)

Caveat: A reload counts when the player has fired 50 rounds and reloads (prevents reload spamming, or switching between empty and full magazines)

I think we would also break down reload skill for each kind of reloading mechanism. Mosin reloading requires a completely different skill set and should scale differently. 

 

Gun Care - maintaining a weapon will result in slower item degradation 

Athlete - after running for 2 hours in game time, increase the amount of time you can sprint without running out of breath

Escape - after being handcuffed 10 times (each handcuffing must be performed by a different player, the variable storing which players have handcuffed you persists after death ie obtaining this skill in the next life requires you to find 10 more players to handcuff you), gain the ability to slip out of handcuffs after 3 mins of being handcuffed. It may be sensible to buff this skill.

Repair - after fixing 10 engines, gain the ability to repair engines faster, and use scrap parts to repair damage

Chemist - if junk medicine is added then after taking drugs 50 times, ability to craft drugs out of various chemicals

Improvising - after crafting 100 items (including at least 5 of each possible craft able items), you gain access to a few unique recipes, having a degree of skill in particular field will add a unique item in that field i.e. having improvising and gun care will allow you to make an improvised gun with low durability

Hunter - after gutting 50 animals, you will gain an extra meat from each gutting

Melee - after 100 melee strikes melee weapon will degrade slower, after 500 the weapon will break bones/cause bleeding/knockdown more often (with select weapons)

 

Some additions:

Lock picking (rests on the addition of a locked door mechanic): after unlock 50 unique doors the player is less likely to break his lock picking tools (50% down to 10%), after unlocking 200 unique doors the player is faster at unlocking the door.

Nutritionist after eating 50 fresh fruits the player gets a 300% to energy acquired from eating fresh fruit

Iron belly after eating 50 rotten fruit the player is 1/10 as likely to get sick from it's consumption.

Pack rat (player learns how to pack his bags and pockets better) after 24 hours of non-consecutive, elapsed game time with a completely full inventory the player will receive a 10% bonus to his inventory. This bonus applies directly to each item with storage and always rounds up to the nearest extra slot: an 8 slot vest would become a 9 slot vest. a 30 slot bag would become a 33 slot bag. 4 slot jeans would become 5 slots jeans. etc.

 

More suggestions and modifications to the current suggestions would be awesome. Remember all skills are lost on death. Skills should be subtle bonuses, nothing game breaking. Watch dog this and discuss what are game breaking bonuses.

 

Unhek also mentioned potentially adding natural born talents. Would it make sense if talents were then bonuses to these skill growths? Or innately having a handful of skills?

 

Most of my thoughts to these i have mentioned, although i like the idea of iron belly and nutritionist, I don't find these very authentic much like my odor idea before, real life eating a lot of rotten food would make you ill and eating a lot of fresh fruit would simply be tasty. I would love some sort of locked door mechanic to provide a lock picking skill, so long as doors could be broken down too using anything from a gun and shooting the lock to smashing it down with a fire axe, obviously having a skill in lock picking would provide a silent way to get into locked places which overall aids survival. 

 

Another idea i have is not really a skill but would act much like one eating excessive food (Eating when not hungry) could put on weight which would naturally protect you from the cold to help prevent disease, this body weight would be constantly changing so you would need to binge eat at regular intervals to keep the weight on. If poisons were ever added this could delay the onset of such poisons.

 

Also i seen this suggested elsewhere but i think it could apply to the goals of this thread, the growing of facial hair, some people are very particular about their characters overall look, if they wanted a beard the only way to achieve it would be through long term survival, and of course you could shave with an axe, knife or razors once a day if you don't like it. It almost acts as a badge of honor, proving your ability to survive.

[ImageCtrl 719]

Bandaging 50 times + 24 hours of survival time, you will bandage 0.5 seconds faster. Other possibilities could include:

Reloading - after 50 reloads + 24 hours of survival time, you will be able to reload 0.25s faster, 0.5s after 200 reloads + 72 hours of survival time (after first level gain)

Caveat: A reload counts when the player has fired 50 rounds and reloads (prevents reload spamming, or switching between empty and full magazines)

I think we would also break down reload skill for each kind of reloading mechanism. Mosin reloading requires a completely different skill set and should scale differently. 

 

Gun Care - maintaining a weapon will result in slower item degradation 

Athlete - after running for 2 hours in game time, increase the amount of time you can sprint without running out of breath

Escape - after being handcuffed 10 times (each handcuffing must be performed by a different player, the variable storing which players have handcuffed you persists after death ie obtaining this skill in the next life requires you to find 10 more players to handcuff you), gain the ability to slip out of handcuffs after 3 mins of being handcuffed. It may be sensible to buff this skill.

Repair - after fixing 10 engines, gain the ability to repair engines faster, and use scrap parts to repair damage

Chemist - if junk medicine is added then after taking drugs 50 times, ability to craft drugs out of various chemicals

Improvising - after crafting 100 items (including at least 5 of each possible craft able items), you gain access to a few unique recipes, having a degree of skill in particular field will add a unique item in that field i.e. having improvising and gun care will allow you to make an improvised gun with low durability

Hunter - after gutting 50 animals, you will gain an extra meat from each gutting

Odor - after being attacked by 100 different zombies, zombies will be slightly less aware of you making it easier to sneak

(not sure I like this skill - seems overpowered and we don't know if it makes sense with the mythos: do zombies smell us? )

Melee - after 100 melee strikes melee weapon will degrade slower, after 500 the weapon will break bones/cause bleeding/knockdown more often (with select weapons)

 

 

I don't like the idea of learning through doing because of how exploitable it is (I could be wrong about this though). The ability to become better at something should be heavily locked to your ability to survive longer.

I think the second quote is important and true.

All 24h (ingame) one skill point. You can set this skill point on a skill you have used in the last 24h.

Why the high numbers (Bandaging 50 times etc)?

You "must or can" exploid them to gain faster than others.

Edited December 27, 2013 by NoCheats

[tlane 17]

Ok, so we have a number of suggestions available including some ideas pulled from other threads related to the threads directed purpose. Remember, emphasis should be put on the following: changes result in a higher value player (death sucks more), realism, difficult to abuse, and efficient implementation (not something we have discussed). 

 

For reference GodOfGrain is an outside source (separate thread) pointed out by JoostVoorDeel. 

The link to that thread is: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158609-sa-suggestion-introduction-of-microskills/?hl=%2Bskill+%2Bsystem

 

Let's give credit where it is do (may not be 100% original just as it is in the thread) and formalize the categories.

 

Death timer:

thomas28 + Applejaxc propose the use of a death timer varying anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours. 

 

Natural born talent:

Unhek suggests that players are born with certain innate skills that do not become apparent until late game.

 

Losing skills:

Subject42 + GodOfGrain (see microskills thread) Subject42 suggests that skills could become lost when not used for a period of time. GodOfGrain envisions a system where outside forces will cause you to temporarily lose bonuses earned from skill gains such as getting shot. 

 

Skill through item/player exploration:

Unhek suggests that players should be able to earn skills by reading books or learning directly from presence of another player. 

 

Grinding skills (learn by use):

Unhek + raxbit suggest a system where players will earn improved skills by using skills. Skills are not locked. Ex. bandaging 50 times will allow the player to bandage faster.

Abuses: player spams skills in order to level up. Reloads over and over again. Shoots every dear he sees just to gut it. etc.

 

Earning skills by surviving:

GodOfGrain suggests that players should earn subtle bonuses for lasting longer. Everything is based on how long the player has survived in real game time. See his post on microskills.  

TheSzerdi proposes a different but similar system within the thread. 

Abuses: afk'ing in order to gain skills. TheSzerdi suggest 15 minute afk autokick. Use of macros to avoid afk autokick (ie run in a circle automagically). TheSzerdi suggests that macro players are uncommon and even with success they would likely come under duress due to the likeliness that an immobilized bot player is found. 

 

Composite systems:

Grinding skills + skills earned by surviving:

Player earns a new skill after a period of time. The skill earned is based on the most used skill. 

 

Let's collect more outside sources to try and cement these ideas a bit more. Let's try to fit new suggestions to these categories and create new categories as necessary. Let's look for the abuses of each category type. Let's talk about the efficiency and technical challenges behind implementing a given system. My gut and minimal scripting experience lead me to think that time alive bonuses will be  the most efficient and easy to implement. 

 

Please point out where I have missed something important such as who deserves credit. 

[Trylight 0]

No, very much no for a few reasons.

 

1. The crazy no geared people who you see running through the streets are part of the hilarity and craziness. Because in a zombie apocolypse you WOULD come across the insane.You also come across a lot of survivors who are like "No please please don't shoot I'm unarmed! FRIENDLY!" 

 

Making death more 'taxing' would just get rid of the crazies, and who REALLY wants to get rid of those people? Come on.

 

2. I literally made an account to post on this message purely because of what happened with me yesterday. I was on a server, I got confused on where I was (I thought I was on the south coast because I had yet to be spawned on the east one yet) and ended up in the middle of no where. I looted, walked around, and found no one or nothing for two hours.

 

I made my way all the way to the south coast airport, and was immediately shot (I had a bunch of gear by this point).

 

You wanna tell me that the 2 hours of my time and all my gear lost is not a big enough 'consequence'?

 

3. People are already pretty sadistic knowing nothing happens when you die. But these savages know you suffer from it as well? They will go out hunting even harder. And in bigger numbers because of the fear of suffering, making new spawns even MORE screwed.

 

 

 

 

edit: I suppose out right saying no is a bad way to operate and explain something that would change the solo psychos from gunning down noobies.

 

I think gun shots should just attract more zombies, and zombies should be vicious and harder to kill. THIS would make things great.

 

If shooting your gun attracted hordes of 15-20 zombies, you'd reconsider opening fire on someone. Make silencers SUPER SUPER rare (and only found like DEEP north) and make gun shots attract legit hordes. Increase the number of zombies, etc. Right now zombies are kind of a joke but it's alright, it is alpha.

 

But if down the road zombies come in droves at the sound of a gun shot, you'll definitely see guys less likely to just pop a new spawn, because that one bullet will end up costing them another 20 due to the horde.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Trylight

[tlane 17]

No, very much no for a few reasons.

 

1. The crazy no geared people who you see running through the streets are part of the hilarity and craziness. Because in a zombie apocolypse you WOULD come across the insane.You also come across a lot of survivors who are like "No please please don't shoot I'm unarmed! FRIENDLY!" 

 

Making death more 'taxing' would just get rid of the crazies, and who REALLY wants to get rid of those people? Come on.

 

2. I literally made an account to post on this message purely because of what happened with me yesterday. I was on a server, I got confused on where I was (I thought I was on the south coast because I had yet to be spawned on the east one yet) and ended up in the middle of no where. I looted, walked around, and found no one or nothing for two hours.

 

I made my way all the way to the south coast airport, and was immediately shot (I had a bunch of gear by this point).

 

You wanna tell me that the 2 hours of my time and all my gear lost is not a big enough 'consequence'?

 

3. People are already pretty sadistic knowing nothing happens when you die. But these savages know you suffer from it as well? They will go out hunting even harder. And in bigger numbers because of the fear of suffering, making new spawns even MORE screwed.

 

 

 

 

edit: I suppose out right saying no is a bad way to operate and explain something that would change the solo psychos from gunning down noobies.

 

I think gun shots should just attract more zombies, and zombies should be vicious and harder to kill. THIS would make things great.

 

If shooting your gun attracted hordes of 15-20 zombies, you'd reconsider opening fire on someone. Make silencers SUPER SUPER rare (and only found like DEEP north) and make gun shots attract legit hordes. Increase the number of zombies, etc. Right now zombies are kind of a joke but it's alright, it is alpha.

 

But if down the road zombies come in droves at the sound of a gun shot, you'll definitely see guys less likely to just pop a new spawn, because that one bullet will end up costing them another 20 due to the horde.

 

I think your 1st point and your 3rd point contradict each other a bit. 

 

First you say: making death taxing would get rid of the crazies. Then you say in your third point that the crazies would have more of a reason to kill you. I agree with your 3rd point. I think it's part of why I like this idea. Make the crazies crazier. Awesome. 

 

Remember, I didn't make this thread to get rid of sadists and bandits. I am a sadist. I made this thread to give players who are not sadists and bandits the opportunity to exercise the strategies they would like to use. My argument points out how shoot on sight is the optimal strategy, so everyone should use it as the game is currently implemented. 

 

A lot of people seem to ignore this point and go straight to discussing how we should get rid of KoS or keep KoS. That is not the objective of this thread. 

 

In response to your 2nd point. Getting geared up is pretty quick and easy once you know what to do. It stops being punishing after a while, gear is easy to come by. Not only that... but if you have just 1 friend he can watch your body while you get back to it. Thus, you lose nothing. 

 

As to your edit check out: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/20112-the-only-realistic-way-to-prevent-deathmatching-make-dayz-a-living-hell/

The player here is discussing ideas to make DayZ super fucking hard including making zombies scary as hell. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by tlane

[Dr. Goner 661]

A quick note: Those of us that played the mod have an entirely different perspective of what it means to be griefed. I feel that the alpha has already leveled the playing field in so many ways. In the mod, we were killed from 700 yards out often by the incredibly overpowered and unrealistic AS50. I mean you could run across the map while holding the thing for crying out loud. 

 

I don't know if any of this will lessen KOS except for the gun care thing. If you don't have a fully functioning weapon properly sighted in you won't be able to KOS. 

 

The funnest part of the Alpha for me so far has been seeking out "pristine" versions of all my equipment. I think some of your suggestions relating to gun maintenance would add a lot of enjoyment to the game for me. I think that if I knew that you had to maintain the weapon and work hard for the "right" to KOS, I also wouldn't feel as bad when I was killed. I think I would feel that the other player had earned that right. Same goes for players that love vehicles. It should cost you a lot of room in your pack to fix up a vehicle, no more holding two tires and an ENGINE in your back pack.

 

I think a properly optimized stamina and carry capacity system would provide a lot of the fixes you suggest. Realistically, if my character was carrying around everything he is currently carrying, he would be moving slow and resting often. I think that each item one chooses to add to their inventory should provoke serious contemplation. The alpha has already improved upon this greatly. For instance, I choose to carry the hunter backpack due to its increased camouflage characteristics even though ti has five less slots than the mountain backpack which is brightly colored and can be see from further away. 

 

I hope all of this makes sense. Sorry for the rambling. Also, nice take on a tired argument. I feel like eventually we can make this better.

[Trylight 0]

My first and third aren't contradictory. 

 

The crazies I am talking about are the people running around naked with their heads down screaming inane things about their dog being eaten.

 

The sadists are people who run in deep north, log out, go to a new server when they find an air base, grab ALL the shit, get to the coast (empty server, no chance to get shot) find a great spot to camp out, switch to a high pop server, and just start shooting people whole sale. In fact I think the insane people running around playing music might even be a decent distraction for some of us who are trying to actually loot and survive.  If you add in consequences this kind of cheating quickly becomes the only way to roll, and in order to put in what you want, you have to alter and change mechanics people legitimately LIKE (being able to gear up and make a long trek north, log out, and still have your progress maintained)

 

 

If your friend doesn't die also, and if you aren't spawned on the other side of the map from them. I mean that's a few if's and I'm sure more people are running solo then group up in general. Dying when you got all the cool shit still sucks even if you know where to go. Anyone can hop over to an empty server and then switch over, but that still takes time, it's already a reason to be afraid.

 

The problem with adding frustrating death mechanics in a world where there is no where 'safe' is how quickly someone could get spawn killed from being an 'experienced' survivor, to losing all their 'experience'.

 

And with what your adding KoS becomes the ONLY option. If dying is no big deal you consider talking to people and exploring interaction. If dying causes you deep time wasting loss (in a game where you can already walk for 2+ hours and see / find NOTHING) then there is never any reason to not blow people away.

 

The only people I can see going for this are people who already spend 8 hours a day playing this game, and wouldn't mind a grind being added on top of some mechanics which are already frustrating for anyone who wants to just hop on solo and run around for a bit. 

[tlane 17]

My first and third aren't contradictory. 

 

The crazies I am talking about are the people running around naked with their heads down screaming inane things about their dog being eaten.

 

The sadists are people who run in deep north, log out, go to a new server when they find an air base, grab ALL the shit, get to the coast (empty server, no chance to get shot) find a great spot to camp out, switch to a high pop server, and just start shooting people whole sale. In fact I think the insane people running around playing music might even be a decent distraction for some of us who are trying to actually loot and survive.  If you add in consequences this kind of cheating quickly becomes the only way to roll, and in order to put in what you want, you have to alter and change mechanics people legitimately LIKE (being able to gear up and make a long trek north, log out, and still have your progress maintained)

 

 

If your friend doesn't die also, and if you aren't spawned on the other side of the map from them. I mean that's a few if's and I'm sure more people are running solo then group up in general. Dying when you got all the cool shit still sucks even if you know where to go. Anyone can hop over to an empty server and then switch over, but that still takes time, it's already a reason to be afraid.

 

The problem with adding frustrating death mechanics in a world where there is no where 'safe' is how quickly someone could get spawn killed from being an 'experienced' survivor, to losing all their 'experience'.

 

And with what your adding KoS becomes the ONLY option. If dying is no big deal you consider talking to people and exploring interaction. If dying causes you deep time wasting loss (in a game where you can already walk for 2+ hours and see / find NOTHING) then there is never any reason to not blow people away.

 

The only people I can see going for this are people who already spend 8 hours a day playing this game, and wouldn't mind a grind being added on top of some mechanics which are already frustrating for anyone who wants to just hop on solo and run around for a bit. 

 

 

Let's end this discussion of what effects this will or will not have on existing sadists and bandits. Any argument we have will be based on hearsay and has already been beaten to death in other existing topics. We would just speculate on what sadist/bandits would or would not do. I will refrain from adding any new speculation; I'm asking you to do the same. 

 

Crazies, as you describe them, don't care anyway. Don't you think? They have no fear of death... that's what makes them crazies. They will still run around acting crazy. Would they really care about losing their skills when they already didn't care about losing their gear?

 

Let's return to the point of the discussion which you touched on here: "And with what your adding KoS becomes the ONLY option." Based on what? You provide no evidence or reasoning behind your statement, apart from: "then there is never any reason to not blow people away." Which you don't support with evidence or logic. I'm not trying to insult you, just understand I cannot comprehend why you are making the claims you are making. If you want to understand my reasoning, check my argument in the original post. risk vs. reward. If the risk of death (in terms of having to restart) is too low then the reward is always worth pursuing. 

 

Players don't need bonuses to survive or excel, player skill knowledge should take the forefront in this regard. The bonuses should be so subtle that you hardly notice you have them until you die and restart. We simply want to increase the consequences of dying to make dying more frustrating. 

 

An argument I can accept is whether you consider dying frustrating enough as it is. Let's leave it at personal player preference -- I know a great deal of players have expressed how easy it is for them to restart and I align myself with them. I have found very few players who think death is currently too frustrating, and the ones who have expressed this have been met with a great deal of mockery.  

 

"A grind" is only one of the ideas for tuning death consequence. I can totally see how grinding can be boring for many, but some people fucking love grinding. Let's not focus our discussion on this particularly-polarized aspect. As for people who would enjoy a skill-up based mechanic to the game please peruse the forums. I have seen a very diverse set of players interested in employing such a mechanic, not just players who sit down and play for 8 hour sessions every day. Should I provide a list of forum posts? Otherwise you could just search for topics: "skill system" "skill mechanic" etc. 

 

Lone wolves already play the style I think the system I am proposing would encourage, at least late game. See option A in my original post. 

 

EDIT: Apologies for calling your argument contradictory, I just didn't understand what you meant. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by tlane

[IcyBlade 48]

Your suggesting that death should be scarier and should bare more consequence.

But your goal is to reduce killing.

 

These two actions are no the same. Dying and killing are not the same. In fact killing could help prevent your own death as such your solution could potential achieve the exact opposite of your intention.

 

There are however solutions to this issue that take advantage of human nature and don't impose unnecessary restrictions to players.

One such could be to make the zombies far more of a threat, if they are more dangerous than other players then you can incur situation where players form temporary alliances. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

These temporary alliances would make for great game play as whilst working together both will likely constantly be reevaluating the other players usefulness versus the risk. Much like in many great survival films where cooperation is forced, the characters have to make hard risk filled decisions constantly.

[tlane 17]

Your suggesting that death should be scarier and should bare more consequence.

But your goal is to reduce killing.

 

These two actions are no the same. Dying and killing are not the same. In fact killing could help prevent your own death as such your solution could potential achieve the exact opposite of your intention.

 

There are however solutions to this issue that take advantage of human nature and don't impose unnecessary restrictions to players.

One such could be to make the zombies far more of a threat, if they are more dangerous than other players then you can incur situation where players form temporary alliances. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

These temporary alliances would make for great game play as whilst working together both will likely constantly be reevaluating the other players usefulness versus the risk. Much like in many great survival films where cooperation is forced, the characters have to make hard risk filled decisions constantly.

 

My goal is not to reduce killing. The goal is to allow players who don't enjoy KoS the ability to use strategies that are currently less optimal. The risk/reward analysis explains why those strategies are currently less optimal. 

 

Bandits/Sadists would not change their ways due to these changes. As you suggest they would probably become even more brutal -- sounds fun to me. 

 

Killing always puts you at the risk of dying and a big one at that. Avoidance will almost always impose less risk. Example: you head to Stary to loot. You reach Stary and per your usual protocol you watch the city for activity. You see another player looting the city. You could shoot the player but this imposes the risk of your location being revealed by other players in the area. You could talk to the player but this imposes obvious risks. You could ignore the player and attempt to loot the city (I think this is the closest option to the risk you are referring to in your argument), similar risk levels to talking to the player, perhaps even more. OR you could just head out of Stary making sure to stay in cover during your exit. The last option I mentioned is arguably the least risk. 

 

I agree with your argument relative to reducing KoS in general, but please do not discuss this further. That is not the purpose of this topic. Many other topics have already beaten this to death. The logic behind your argument refers to increasing the risk of death (ie the chances that you will die). 

 

Do you mean the suggestions mentioned here impose unnecessary restrictions on players? I had thought most suggestions revolved around giving players bonuses for surviving/exploring/interacting. I personally do not care for the suggestions that involve imposing restrictions, but I feel obligated to list them because they are at least somewhat viable relative to my argument. 

[combatcomm1 234]

Can we just please have a simple STAT system in the menu? I think that would help add some value to life other then mad lewts. Which I think is needed. We have to find a way to simulate the instinct for survival that a human has. The more you value your virtual life in DAYZ the better the game will get. The more heart pounding zombie and human encounters will be.

 

As long as different mechanics are added that help counter the KoS dilemma I think adding more value is necessary to making this game even better. I also like a subtle non intrusive realistic skill system. And then of course the beard idea is awesome that someone suggested in another "add more value to life thread".