[SA] Increase the consequences of death.

[tlane 17]

******* There will be no TL;DR section. If you do not have the time or do not care to read please do not respond to this post. Do not reply with "TL;DR <insert inane summary of discussion>"******* 
 
What follows is a discussion of why players shoot first and ask questions later, avoid everyone, horde more food than they will ever eat, and seek the help of others. Suggestions will be given that help balance the survival strategies used in DayZ to more realistic standards. 
 
To those who read my previous post:

After some shuffle around and shake and bake, I was told by a mod to rework my post/title to better fit the suggestions forum and my intended goals for this post. Fortunately, I think this helps to make things more clear in regards to what I was actually proposing and will help guide the discussion. Many thanks to Inception.

 
Thesis:
 
DayZ is a game about surviving in the zombie apocalypse. You wake up on some foreign beach, unaware of your surroundings, with nothing but a flash light and the feeling that something is horribly wrong with the world around you, and I don't mean that everything is written in Russian.
 
Apart from that, the game has meant different things to different players. Some of us like to scavenge and stockpile, some of us like to explore, some of us like to interact with other players, some of us like to build, and some of us like to kill anyone and everyone we see. The motivations for why we adapt these roles vary but tend to be fairly predictable. In the end I think there tends to be a pretty even distribution of what we'd like to do... However on observation, there is clearly a bias of what we see.
 
Shoot first ask questions later has become the unspoken rule among most survivors. Given that this conflicts with my belief, "a fairly equal distribution of survival strategies", I'm left to conclude one of two things: I'm wrong OR that there is an inherit advantage to the player (or group of players) killing everyone they see before communication is possible. 
 
Let's assume I'm correct and that the advantages of unabated player destruction far outweigh the consequences. First, does this reflect reality? If we actually put all the real players who play DayZ under the circumstances that they find themselves in this zombie apocalypse simulator would they operate the same? If not, why?
 
Let's address this. The major differences between DayZ and real life are risk, supply, and ability/knowledge. Risk refers to that of death. Humans have a real fear of death; if we didn't, we would not exist as a species today. DayZ lacks major analogs to this fear of death, the best one being that you lose everything you had scavenged. Supply refers to the relative abundance of necessary materials to stay alive and cause harm to others. Ability/knowledge refers to the technical feats one can accomplish in DayZ: shoot a gun, load a gun, aim a gun, assemble a gun, clean a gun, fix a car, fix a helicopter, perform a blood transfusion, apply a bandage, run for miles without pausing for a break, and so many more technical skills not everyone is capable of performing. 
 
Apart from the sadists and the misguided bandits, players kill prior to any form of communication because, apart from equipment and player ability, everyone is equal. It is a risk/benefit analysis. For example you are walking along in DayZ and you see another player: what are your options? (Adding other players into the mix changes everything, so we will assume that we know that no other players are present.)
 
Option A:
Avoid the player. Very low risk. Holds risk of player eventually spotting you. Risk is proportional to the amount of gear the player has + their potential to acquire more gear in the near future + the likeliness that they will spot you. Benefits are limited to the low risk. Very low risk/low benefits.
 
Option B:
Talk to the player. High risk. Player may be hostile. Risk is proportional to the amount of gear the player has + the tactical position the player is in. Benefits include procuring valuable knowledge and the potential to team up with that player. High risk/marginal benefits.
 
Option C:
Talk with and attempt to work with the player. Exceedingly high risk. In order to work with another player you need to trust them, and THIS IS IMPORTANT, their ability needs to outweigh the risk of trusting them + the value of whatever gear they carry. Benefits include having the trustworthy ally: watches your back, gives you food, bandages you, etc. Exceedingly high risk/moderate benefits (varies with how good of an ally the player ends up being).
 
Option D:
Kill the player. Low to Medium risk. Risk is proportional to your ability to aim + tactical position + weapon power. Benefits include elimination of a potential threat + gaining any loot player was carrying. Low  risk/large benefits
 
So, given we know no other players are present... Option D presents us with the greatest rewards at the lowest risk. This risk lowers as you find better weapons and pick fire fights where your tactical position is strong. 
 
For the most part I think all of this is sort of obvious. The most important detail I'd like to point out is that not everyone necessarily WANTS to kill on sight, but that killing on sight will almost always obviously yield the greatest returns relative to the risks taken. Which means most players will optimize towards using a strategy that results in them dying less and getting more stuff. 
 
How do we allow players who don't necessarily WANT to kill on sight use their strategy of choice without feeling under optimized?
 
We need to increase the consequences of death. 
 
===================================================================
 
OP Suggested Solution (make death scarier):
 
The ultimate example of this would be the following: Player dies in DayZ, they can never, ever, ever play DayZ again. This is obviously too harsh. So, we know that our balance lies somewhere between death=ban and the current state of the game (lose all of your stuff). We can call this metric we are trying to increase personal player risk. 
 
Some, not necessarily original, ideas regarding Increasing personal player risk. The point is NOT to make death riskier (ie easier to die). The point is to make the consequences of dying greater.
 
Specialization concept (I think, Rocket has already touched on this, many certainly have already posted about the idea)... skill mastery/item knowledge/etc lost on death along with gear.
 
Most skills would be locked or suffer massive penalties until the player specializes (specializations are unlocked via earning experience), examples: bandaging, gun usage (HUGE aiming/reloading penalties) perhaps the addition of gun care and maintenance as well, mechanical tinkering (cars/helicopters/etc), lock picking added along with locked buildings/safes/cabinets/etc.  
 
Experience would be earned as a direct result of surviving and exploring (places/items). Your ability to gain key skills is based on experience relative to the key skill you wish to learn and that skill would become better with practice. 
 
Giving someone a blood transfusion would require medical knowledge of what a blood bag and IV start kit look like. It would also require the knowledge of human anatomy of where to start an IV. The success of such an operation along with potential infection would vary with the players experience. Players with low skill would be likely to botch the operation and cause an infection for the target player. Bandaging seems like a simple enough skill, but a skilled physician, EMT, or someone trained in triage type care will have loads more success stopping bleeding, preventing infection, and securing the bandage. 
 
Gun care would be a huge part of the game. Guns that are not cared for would not work properly. Many more items would need to be carried in order to maintain a player's gun (grease, oil, etc). Gun parts would be subject to wear and tear and would require replacement. Guns would more often than not be found complete but inoperable due to the wear and tear of a given piece or handful of given pieces. Ammunition would be EXTRAORDINARILY rare. Ammunition has a high probability of malfunctioning based on its condition. Guns that are not cared for properly would have a high chance of jamming or misfiring. 
 
Certain items linked to particular specializations would be indiscernible nonsense to those lacking the specialization or knowledge of a particular item ("It's all Greek to me."). Example: IV Saline, Blood bag kit, defib, epi-pens, etc are all now Medical supplies (you are not familiar with this item). The items shape would take on a generic image to that player.
 
Obtaining items from spawn would be much, much more difficult. Fortunately, this is intended with the increase in the number of zombies in the game. I would suggest increasing the difficulty of zombies: make them hardier, make them scarier (do more damage). 

 

Good/functioning items would be more rare. Spawns are filled up with crap mostly: empty magazines, broken gun parts, rotten fruit, empty cans, etc. Finding an unopened can of baked beans should be a glorious moment. 
 
Not entirely fleshed out, but I assume you more or less get the picture. Let's make dying suck more.
 
===================================================================
 
Closing:
 
I opened this topic for two primary purposes.
 
1. I want to discuss whether my hypothesis is correct or not: Most players shoot on sight because it is an optimal strategy in terms of risk/reward. This does not reflect reality because the consequences for dying are too low and kill on sight has moderate risk of death associated with it while the rewards of shoot first ask questions later are proportionally too large. 
 
2. If you think I am correct I want to know if you have any other ideas on how to increase the consequences of death. 

 
The other side of this conversation revolves around the reward from possibly working with other players. What if those players carried something more than just loot? What if they had real, earn-able, valuable skills in game that you couldn't have? What if you could take a skilled medic hostage and force him to treat you? What if you could bargain with a bandit for raided food by repairing their vehicle? The game has already increased the sadism potential of players who are out there just to watch the world burn (people who play for mutilating other players). I mean I handcuffed a guy (told him it was for my own safety), offered to help him, and forced him to eat rotten fruit and disinfectant (but he thought it was rice and baked beans). He thought I was the nicest guy and followed me for the next 10 minutes or so before his stomach imploded and died. I'm still pretty sure he had no idea what killed him. Freak stomach explosion? Likely story. 

 
******* There is no TL;DR section. If you do not have the time or do not care to read please do not respond to this post. Do not reply with "TL;DR <insert inane summary of discussion>"*******

[applejaxc 2500]

tl;dr <insert summary description>

[Guest]

However,

 

By making death worth more, then people are more likely to be on edge, whilst they may be more likely to take care, all that will happen is the level of player interaction drops and shots are fired more often. Leave it to the players 

[tlane 17]

tl;dr <insert summary description>

 

Applejaxc too stronk.

[Shadyfizzle 80]

You have some good ideas, i think WarZ had something where you had to wait a day to respawn if you died? but you had like 4 characters. I go agree things should be more broken and rarer, particularly guns. Most people should be using melee weapons or crappy pistols

 

The whole XP idea is tricky, as of now there is a real life XP system. Someone like me who has played the mod for hundreds of hours has more XP at the game than someone just picking it up, as a result its easier for me to survive

Edited December 26, 2013 by Shadyfizzle

[tlane 17]

 

However,

 

By making death worth more, then people are more likely to be on edge, whilst they may be more likely to take care, all that will happen is the level of player interaction drops and shots are fired more often. Leave it to the players 

 

I 100% agree that at some point the risk of interacting with another player will become too high (I'd totally be a hermit and just watch people), but that would be after you've built your character up. The thing is, during the process you may come to rely on some other player to get to that point, if survival is more difficult at the start. 

 

I disagree that shots will be fired more because your personal player risk is too high to do so. It's safer to take your time and raid a house or barn in the countryside. In a more realistic scenario (leaving out the sadists/bandits) attacking another person is done in desperation, not as a survival strategy. I think we may be able to agree on a number of scenarios in world history to serve as analogs to a zombie apocalypse. If we took the time to decide which scenarios work best we could start looking at what people actually do to each other. I'm going to contend that for the most part it's only a small portion of the population that takes on the bandit/sadist role and the rest are adopting their own survival strategies (that do not involve robbing/killing everyone they see). 

 

For a small list of examples let's go with: Nazi Germany - Berlin (During the Russian invasion), Polish Ghetto (Nazi Germany's occupation of Poland), Louisiana, New Orleans (Post hurricane Katrina), Southern United States (Civil War - after the union began practicing total war tactics), Dark Ages (Plague).

 

You have some good ideas, i think WarZ had something where you had to wait a day to respawn if you died? but you had like 4 characters. I go agree things should be more broken and rarer, particularly guns. Most people should be using melee weapons or crappy pistols

 

The whole XP idea is tricky, as of now there is a real life XP system. Someone like me who has played the mod for hundreds of hours has more XP at the game than someone just picking it up, as a result its easier for me to survive

 

That was a horseshit mechanic in WarZ. (you could pay to revive yourself if I recall correctly) I don't hope to see anything quite like that, pretty close to the death = ban mechanic. ;)

 

I agree regarding XP. If it's done, it has to be done in a sensible way; this is not World of Warcraft. I do think some skills don't make sense for everyone. I sort of doubt that you, Shadyfizzle, know how to perform a blood transfusion, aim/fire/clean a gun, can run for miles without losing your breath, and many other such feats (not suggesting that you directly said you know how to do those things). Would locking some of these skills to some sort of system make sense? If so, what could we use instead of XP?

 

Remember that I'm not set in my ways here. I think the XP system I'm suggesting is actually technically difficult to pull off so I was hoping to mine/farm more ideas from people such as yourself. Perhaps increasing the difficulty in item farming will be enough. 

[thomas28 31]

Good ideas, i don't see the KOS as a big problem, just a part of the game, but i like the idea of respawn cool down maybe 1 or 2 hours , it would stop the massive traffic on the coast, and in the big fights you won't have all the fresh spawn's running around trying to get their gear back.

[applejaxc 2500]

I'd like to see death result in:

 

Auto disconnect from server, inability to rejoin particular server for at least 30 minutes

 

Or forced 10+ minute break from playing

[Shadyfizzle 80]

I own guns so there is that lol. but im pretty sure the specialization, medic for example, will be something along the lines of a lower chance of infection when performing blood/saline bags or an increased rate or chance that vitamins and antibiotics work?

 

 

but anything that requires x amount of blood baggings or the like can obviously be farmed and exploited

Edited December 26, 2013 by Shadyfizzle

[tlane 17]

I own guns so there is that lol. but im pretty sure the specialization, medic for example, will be something along the lines of a lower chance of infection when performing blood/saline bags or an increased rate or chance that vitamins and antibiotics work?

 

 

but anything that requires x amount of blood baggings or the like can obviously be farmed and exploited

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a rare drop: like a book that gets consumed. Perhaps this book would require that your character has lived for a specific amount of time or has visited enough hospitals. Something harder to exploit. 

 

EDIT: Antibiotics should work as well whoever uses them just for realism. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by tlane

[tlane 17]

Good ideas, i don't see the KOS as a big problem, just a part of the game, but i like the idea of respawn cool down maybe 1 or 2 hours , it would stop the massive traffic on the coast, and in the big fights you won't have all the fresh spawn's running around trying to get their gear back.

 

Personally I fucking love to KoS (not all the time though, just when my sadistic side is showing). My post is just addressing that many players feel forced into KoS because it's the optimal strategy (see my argument).

 

I don't favor respawn timers so much just because it's too punishing on the consumer. A forced 10 minute break as Applejax suggested smells about right but would only help to prevent some of the spawn-scumming to get a better spawn point. 

 

What I'm talking about should be traumatic, like when you need to get to an important interview or exam and you cannot find your car keys. Your heart should race when a bullet flies over your head. I'm not sure any amount of cool down time is going to quite accomplish that. You need to lose something that is valuable to you. Items could do it if they were rarer. I only suggested the experience system because I know how exploitable the item system can be (create stashes, transferring items from your friends).

[Unhek 5]

I'm totally into this idea you propose tlane, would love to see something like it happen in dayz

 

About XP

 

My suggestions on this topic is to create a personal connection to the character you are playing.

"You wash up on shore, you don't remember who you are, but you are someone, you were someone with from a past life."

 

I would personally implement a system where you will learn as you go by trying the actions you want to learn, reading books, maybe even get lessons from other players.

But a very important part of this is that in my vision, every new spawn would get their own set of talents fully at random, these talents would be hidden from the player, the player will probably not even notice what talents he she has if they are not actively looking for it and even then only late in life after they already bonded to a certain degree.
Feedback would be things like shooting right on target often, bandaging really well, eating food that is often under-cooked, inability to find loot etc.
 

How I see this is that you have a kind of unknown destiny, you can grind all you like to learn skills you would enjoy, you have all the freedom of playing how you like, but you might just have no talent for it at all and it would take you a lot of in game time to learn the specific skill, while somewhere else in the world other people doing the same actions find they are much faster at it, but all this would be hidden from the player in any direct sense. There are no skill tree's, no xp bars etc etc.. just you and your character and your personal experience from playing the game with that character. 

So, the only way to tell what is going on should be from playing the game, being aware of your actions and maybe even from talks around the campfire with other players about their experiences.

The intentions are to create a variety of characters with each their own skill-set all over the world, self discovery/bonding with your toon, increase role-playing(lonewolfs, medics, leaders, bandits, soldier, mechanics and on and on) and reducing predictability of it all.
 

It will also be important to have the environment cause more harm imo, disease, zombies(should become much more of a threat), animals, weather etc..

 

Sometimes even a raging murderer will have to fake his real nature and make friends to find and get medical treatment(or lose weeks on in game time/character building)

Or otherwise maybe they just spy on people until they find a medic, take the bitch hostage and force her to heal himself or death will follow, and who knows, it might still follow...

Edited December 26, 2013 by Unhek

[SugarGun 3]

I support you in your idea.
Now I have also a solution for option D, indeed kill a player to get his stuff is the best options and less risk (although a player with the skill can quickly lie to hide behind a bush or a wall, put a bandage and a successful kill her abuser) but I think the solution would be simple as adding skill / knowledge though I like this idea.

> Zombies: they are the solution to pvp, I'm not talking about two or three zombies here and there but HORDES of zombies, or a shot can stir up dozens and dozens, or the attacker can take advantage of distraction caused by the noise generated by the weapon for run away and keep alive! Zombies can be used intelligently, imagine you took a lawsuit against another player, you find a horde of zombies and you're well hidden not far from the horde as if he shot he get rioted!

Edited December 26, 2013 by SugarGun

[aug1186 0]

Could you just do something as simple as give bandits a spawn timer or bandit specific penalties.  Not all players should be penalized after dying.  There are lot of new players that die from zombies, hunger, etc.  Hell, even veteran's get into sticky situations.

 

If you choose to kill another player, you become a bandit (we know this part).  When you inevitably die AS a bandit, you now become inactive on all other servers for, idk, 20 mins?  If you're just a non-bandit, you're not penalized with a spawn timer.  Once you re spawn, your bandit status is cleared - from that point on you choose to go back to your old ways, or to live a new life.

 

Or maybe after dying as a bandit, eating food and drinking liquid is like 50% less effective for 20 mins after re-spawning.  There's gotta be a simple solution here.  Something that doesn't take player killing out of the equation, but makes it less attractive.  I don't want to get rid of player killing all together but I think this would encourage more creative interactions between others, as opposed to just walking up behind someone and axing them in the back.  Most bandits kill just because they know they are crushing 1-2 hours of someone's hard work; not because they actually need something.  We've all done it.  

[Unhek 5]

Could you just do something as simple as give bandits a spawn timer or bandit specific penalties.  Not all players should be penalized after dying.  There are lot of new players that die from zombies, hunger, etc.  Hell, even veteran's get into sticky situations.

 

If you choose to kill another player, you become a bandit (we know this part).  When you inevitably die AS a bandit, you now become inactive on all other servers for, idk, 20 mins?  If you're just a non-bandit, you're not penalized with a spawn timer.  Once you re spawn, your bandit status is cleared - from that point on you choose to go back to your old ways, or to live a new life.

 

Or maybe after dying as a bandit, eating food and drinking liquid is like 50% less effective for 20 mins after re-spawning.  There's gotta be a simple solution here.  Something that doesn't take player killing out of the equation, but makes it less attractive.  I don't want to get rid of player killing all together but I think this would encourage more creative interactions between others, as opposed to just walking up behind someone and axing them in the back.  Most bandits kill just because they know they are crushing 1-2 hours of someone's hard work; not because they actually need something.  We've all done it.  

Why punish playing as a bandid?

[aug1186 0]

Because I feel that DayZ is less about survival and more about spawn camping the starting areas/towns.  I understand you should have the free will to be able to do what you want, when you want.  But at the same time, DayZ wasn't designed to be a death match either.  It seems like that's more or less what it has turned into.  Run to the air base, get a M4 because they are literally everywhere, and come back to Belota.

 

Since Stand Alone launched, I haven't had one successful interaction with another player.  Even when the other person clearly sees that I have nothing and just spawned off the coast, it's usually a shot to the head 'just because.'  

 

Maybe punish isn't the right word, but if you take some of the incentive away, the scales will balance.  Like I said, KOS SHOULD still exist; it just shouldn't be anyone's first thought.  I highly doubt in a real Zombie apocalypse, that one person would go around just popping tops for fun.

 

Edit: punish is the right word after re-reading my thoughts.  Regardless, my point remains and maybe my opinion is 100% wrong; but I would just like to see a little more dependability on other humans.  At this stage in DayZ SA, I much prefer to run into a horde of zombies than just 1 other player.

Edited December 26, 2013 by aug1186

[tlane 17]

Could you just do something as simple as give bandits a spawn timer or bandit specific penalties.  Not all players should be penalized after dying.  There are lot of new players that die from zombies, hunger, etc.  Hell, even veteran's get into sticky situations.

 

If you choose to kill another player, you become a bandit (we know this part).  When you inevitably die AS a bandit, you now become inactive on all other servers for, idk, 20 mins?  If you're just a non-bandit, you're not penalized with a spawn timer.  Once you re spawn, your bandit status is cleared - from that point on you choose to go back to your old ways, or to live a new life.

 

Or maybe after dying as a bandit, eating food and drinking liquid is like 50% less effective for 20 mins after re-spawning.  There's gotta be a simple solution here.  Something that doesn't take player killing out of the equation, but makes it less attractive.  I don't want to get rid of player killing all together but I think this would encourage more creative interactions between others, as opposed to just walking up behind someone and axing them in the back.  Most bandits kill just because they know they are crushing 1-2 hours of someone's hard work; not because they actually need something.  We've all done it.  

 

This is not in the spirit of the discussion, please see the KoS thread: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/154460-so-kos-official-sa-kos-discussion-topic/

 

Why bandits or people who are sadistic kill is not part of this discussion (we are focusing on players who use the strategies they do because it is optimal, not preference), do not bring up these points here. They are off topic and already well addressed elsewhere. 

 

Because I feel that DayZ is less about survival and more about spawn camping the starting areas/towns.  I understand you should have the free will to be able to do what you want, when you want.  But at the same time, DayZ wasn't designed to be a death match either.  It seems like that's more or less what it has turned into.  Run to the air base, get a M4 because they are literally everywhere, and come back to Belota.

 

Since Stand Alone launched, I haven't had one successful interaction with another player.  Even when the other person clearly sees that I have nothing and just spawned off the coast, it's usually a shot to the head 'just because.'  

 

Maybe punish isn't the right word, but if you take some of the incentive away, the scales will balance.  Like I said, KOS SHOULD still exist; it just shouldn't be anyone's first thought.  I highly doubt in a real Zombie apocalypse, that one person would go around just popping tops for fun.

 

Edit: punish is the right word after re-reading my thoughts.  Regardless, my point remains and maybe my opinion is 100% wrong; but I would just like to see a little more dependability on other humans.  At this stage in DayZ SA, I much prefer to run into a horde of zombies than just 1 other player.

 

DayZ is whatever YOU want it to be, you can read this in most any interview the creator, Rocket, has given. Remember, that what YOU want is not necessarily what I want. This thread does not address what DayZ is or should be. The suggestions made here should be about offering more to DayZ through balancing. The current system is in my opinion flawed because personal risk (death consequence) is too low and pushes players toward a play style that is optimal - according to my argument this is mostly a shoot on sight mantra. I have argued that this optimization does not reflect reality for the reasons stated in my argument. 

 

I suggest you reread the forum post and decide if you have anything to add in those terms: does increasing personal risk make sense? If you agree, state that, then you should add suggestions for doing so. If you disagree you should explain why and provide examples or evidence. Anything else will take away from the discussion and lead us into a flame war over a separate topic. 

 

I do not want to hear anything more about "punishing" players for their behaviors as they relate to some morale compass. There is no karma system and there will likely be no karma system. If you want there to be a karma system as you are suggesting you should add to those threads that are already discussing it. 

[tlane 17]

I support you in your idea.

Now I have also a solution for option D, indeed kill a player to get his stuff is the best options and less risk (although a player with the skill can quickly lie to hide behind a bush or a wall, put a bandage and a successful kill her abuser) but I think the solution would be simple as adding skill / knowledge though I like this idea.

> Zombies: they are the solution to pvp, I'm not talking about two or three zombies here and there but HORDES of zombies, or a shot can stir up dozens and dozens, or the attacker can take advantage of distraction caused by the noise generated by the weapon for run away and keep alive! Zombies can be used intelligently, imagine you took a lawsuit against another player, you find a horde of zombies and you're well hidden not far from the horde as if he shot he get rioted!

 

If I understand you correctly, you affirm that I am correct, and then offer that we should instead increase the risk of dying by making zombies more dangerous?

 

I think my argument more so regards how having skills will force players to be more careful about the risks they take because death results in a loss of whatever skills/knowledge there players has gained. I think you make a good point here though when you describe how these skills will also directly effect the situations players find themselves in. Abusers will need to assess yet another element before ending another players life. 

[ImageCtrl 719]

The point is to make the consequences of dying greater.

I guess you mean, the benefits that OTHERS are alive and not dead.

(he can heal, repair, drive, fly etc.)

 

I understand why you come up with this idea, but I´m not sure I like this idea.

 

I have like in the MOD anyway a other expirience with players.

They don´t shoot me. They don´t see me as a possible risk when I open my mouth.

They see me as benifit in a few sec. I team up each day.

 

Skill trees limits the possibilitys. Someone need blood, maybe I´m worthless for that. I want fly, but I can´t etc.

The problem should be always the player himself. Not a skill.

That you need more TIME is ok for me, the result should always be the same. One can clean a gun in 30 sec, the other with no skill need 10 min. No classes, learning by doing.

 

I think coop can forced other ways. Maybe you need three guys to carry a part for a helicopter.

You need 4 guys to bring the spawned Ural out of the swamp. Thinks like that I would like.

Implement thinks you can´t do alone. Don´t limit them with skills. Skills should only be a time factor when someone think this is needed.

Edited December 26, 2013 by NoCheats

[tlane 17]

I'm totally into this idea you propose tlane, would love to see something like it happen in dayz

 

About XP

 

My suggestions on this topic is to create a personal connection to the character you are playing.

"You wash up on shore, you don't remember who you are, but you are someone, you were someone with from a past life."

 

I would personally implement a system where you will learn as you go by trying the actions you want to learn, reading books, maybe even get lessons from other players.

But a very important part of this is that in my vision, every new spawn would get their own set of talents fully at random, these talents would be hidden from the player, the player will probably not even notice what talents he she has if they are not actively looking for it and even then only late in life after they already bonded to a certain degree.

Feedback would be things like shooting right on target often, bandaging really well, eating food that is often under-cooked, inability to find loot etc.

 

How I see this is that you have a kind of unknown destiny, you can grind all you like to learn skills you would enjoy, you have all the freedom of playing how you like, but you might just have no talent for it at all and it would take you a lot of in game time to learn the specific skill, while somewhere else in the world other people doing the same actions find they are much faster at it, but all this would be hidden from the player in any direct sense. There are no skill tree's, no xp bars etc etc.. just you and your character and your personal experience from playing the game with that character. 

So, the only way to tell what is going on should be from playing the game, being aware of your actions and maybe even from talks around the campfire with other players about their experiences.

The intentions are to create a variety of characters with each their own skill-set all over the world, self discovery/bonding with your toon, increase role-playing(lonewolfs, medics, leaders, bandits, soldier, mechanics and on and on) and reducing predictability of it all.

 

It will also be important to have the environment cause more harm imo, disease, zombies(should become much more of a threat), animals, weather etc..

 

Sometimes even a raging murderer will have to fake his real nature and make friends to find and get medical treatment(or lose weeks on in game time/character building)

Or otherwise maybe they just spy on people until they find a medic, take the bitch hostage and force her to heal himself or death will follow, and who knows, it might still follow...

 

I really, really like the idea of natural talents, especially if they are hidden and subtle.

 

I am concerned however that many would not share this sentiment and view it as a sort of a bullshit mechanic. A lot of players like the RPG style of the game and want to craft their character as much as possible in their own image. It could be very frustrating to fancy yourself a genius and medicinal mastermind and find out your only talent is aiming and shooting. 

 

Here's to hoping though - you have my beans. 

[tlane 17]

I guess you mean, the benefits that OTHERS are alive and not dead.

(he can heal, repair, drive, fly etc.)

 

I understand why you come up with this idea, but I´m not sure I like this idea.

 

I have like in the MOD anyway a other expirience with players.

They don´t shoot me. They don´t see me as a possible risk when I open my mouth.

They see me as benifit in a few sec. I team up each day.

 

Skill trees limits the possibilitys. Someone need blood, maybe I´m worthless for that. I want fly, but I can´t etc.

The problem should be always the player himself. Not a skill.

That you need more TIME is ok for me, the result should always be the same. One can clean a gun in 30 sec, the other with no skill need 10 min. No classes, learning by doing.

 

I think coop can forced other ways. Maybe you need three guys to carry a part for a helicopter.

You need 4 guys to bring the spawned Ural out of the swamp. Thinks like that I would like.

Implement thinks you can´t do allone. Don´t limit them with skills. Skills should only be a time factor when someone think this is needed.

 

I think that's an excellent point. I really like the idea of limited skills as opposed to outright locked skills, but I tried to think of things in terms of realism. In some cases locking a particular skill just makes more sense: such as performing a blood transfusion or fixing a car engine. If we don't lock these skills then the potential for catastrophe should be extraordinarily high: kill blood transfusion recipient, blow up car. Whereas I think putting huge penalties on skills such as gun cleaning, aiming, and driving should be the norm for most cases in the system I proposed. I don't like the idea of learning through doing because of how exploitable it is (I could be wrong about this though). The ability to become better at something should be heavily locked to your ability to survive longer.

 

EDIT: 

 

"I guess you mean, the benefits that OTHERS are alive and not dead."

 

I think this is more or less the argument I bring up in the end; it's just the flip side of increasing the consequences of death. If dying sucks more it's because you had more to lose and other players are likely to see value in that given they are also quite limited.

Edited December 26, 2013 by tlane

[ImageCtrl 719]

The ability to become better at something should be heavily locked to your ability to survive longer.

^^true

 

 

[The Mad Titan 29]

Could you just do something as simple as give bandits a spawn timer or bandit specific penalties.  Not all players should be penalized after dying.  There are lot of new players that die from zombies, hunger, etc.  Hell, even veteran's get into sticky situations.

 

If you choose to kill another player, you become a bandit (we know this part).  When you inevitably die AS a bandit, you now become inactive on all other servers for, idk, 20 mins?  If you're just a non-bandit, you're not penalized with a spawn timer.  Once you re spawn, your bandit status is cleared - from that point on you choose to go back to your old ways, or to live a new life.

 

Or maybe after dying as a bandit, eating food and drinking liquid is like 50% less effective for 20 mins after re-spawning.  There's gotta be a simple solution here.  Something that doesn't take player killing out of the equation, but makes it less attractive.  I don't want to get rid of player killing all together but I think this would encourage more creative interactions between others, as opposed to just walking up behind someone and axing them in the back.  Most bandits kill just because they know they are crushing 1-2 hours of someone's hard work; not because they actually need something.  We've all done it.  

I agree. Being a bandit should be the most difficult way to play, it should be like turning on hardcore mode.

[Subject42 20]

I like the idea of a subtle way to implement skills, to add more realism to this idea: some skills can become forgotten when activitys linked to those skills are not carried out for a while, in this way it should become nearly impossible to collect all skills so that teamwork is required.

[Subject42 20]

1. I want to discuss whether my hypothesis is correct or not: Most players shoot on sight because it is an optimal strategy in terms of risk/reward. This does not reflect reality because the consequences for dying are too low and kill on sight has moderate risk of death associated with it while the rewards of shoot first ask questions later are proportionally too large.

I think the reward (loot) of the killed player is not the reason for KoS it's just an additional reward... but the most rewarding thing to player who KoS is to just kill another player, because it's a game, it's possible and it's convenient to kill another player if you see one (one-shot dead + no negative repercussion at all). So the only possible solution to prevent KoS is to make this kind of behavior very inconvenient.

 

 

2. If you think I am correct I want to know if you have any other ideas on how to increase the consequences of death.

I think those kind of players don't give a shit about consequences after they are dead (maybe they even think that they will never die or something), but maybe those players will more frequently stop playing the game when running into them (wich would be nice) so maybe it's feasible to install a short death-timer (There shouldn't be a way to avoid this timer) of about 10-15 Minutes (Until your body despawns), so a player can't loot his own body on his own and can't respawn that frequently, maybe that will solve some other problems too ^^.