SA-Suggestion: Introduction of Microskills

[Fry76 23]

This is not sparta, this is Apocalypse. I want that characters get only weaker and weaker, every hit that you take gets you weaker, every mile you walk makes you weaker and everyday you live ruins more your mind. 

[hypermoon 75]

This game pretty much needs character progression, for several reasons.

1. Gear currently has more value than your characters life. It just doesn't make sense. Story wise or gameplay wise. Some form of character progression is the only real solution to this that can work and it has to have more value than any gear and it needs to be slow progressing. 

 

2. It makes dying harsher. It's puts more value on your character. Makes the game more intense.

 

3. Discourages violence. Makes players more cautious/less likely to engage in conflict.

 

4. Desire to continue playing. Once you get completely geared out there's kinda nothing left to do. This way progression continues even after you have the best gear. There is a point to continuing to play your character and not just starting over.

 

5. It gives more value to surviving for long periods of time.. Because currently it doesn't really mean much. 

 

There is probably many other reasons why this is such a good idea. As long as we can implement progressions systems that don't interfere with balanced combat and are grindy it would add alot to this game.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

no thank you :)

good effort but we will never see skills in dayz

Never say never. Rocket has said himself in videos that he eventually would like a system where players get better at administering medical aid or repairing things. :)

[Lupine 14]

What would be better, is some sort of set of skills that increase by the length of your game play (excluding your present character), more as some sort of reward for sticking to the game, and rebuilding new characters after death instead of throwing in the towel and going to play something else, there needs to be a better reward for game loyalty . Steam records how long we do play any game, so its easy enough to "reward" someone in little ways .. We know for example , in the future they will be penalties for drinking pond water, or not sanatizing wounds, or using rags instead of sterile bandages.. how about if someone has played for a 100 hours, they don't get long term infections from using rags? if they cut a can open with a knife, they dont drop 25%.. they only drop 15% of the cans contents... Making some kind of reward system for time played in the game.. perhaps unlocking some options, like only those who have played 500 hours can have "stashes"  for storing stuff. .. I can see this dieing and starting again from scratch thing getting old after a while, especially if i die over and over in a days playing. besides, you want people to play the game, so, reward good behaviour, keep them playing with rewards.

[basinox 300]

 I'm in favor of the micro skills. Right now there is nothing that prevents me from bull rushing at a guy with my axe and just surrender. The drawbacks are a good idea to prevent Bambi's from being to week to do shit against a veteran survivor.

 

Also may I suggest the cleaning skill?

 

Pros:

• Clean weapons and wounds faster
• Less chance of spilling some tincture of cleaner.

Con:

• Needs wounds or dirty weapons to be trained.
• spilling tincture or cleaner can destroy exposed food items in your shirt+pants (finely a reason to keep them closed or in your bag)

[GodOfGrain 191]

Do you have a source for you percentage numbers, or anything to back them up ?

 

[Regarding my statement that a vast majority of 95% of players would not start grinding in this system]

 

An estimation of course.

 

In a game like Skyrim stats are very important, so they are grinded by a good percentage of player base.

 

The system I have in mind for DayZ rewards a player for "time alive" and for performing certain actions (medical / mechanical). The "Time alive"-system cannot be abused but by avoiding danger; that's what we want, as it should reduce mindless PvP. Game design should not allow players to stay alive without taking risks and actually play the game. Mechanical skills could be grinded, but only under certain circumstances with low risk, never without risk, and it takes a lot of time. Medical skills cannot be grinded (risk of infection in medical actions).

 

Combined with the idea that it takes a lot of time, really a lot of time, to reach marginal improvements in e.g. stamina, carrying capacity or in actions like lighting a fire ... I'd say it is not worth it for players to grind skills. (Skills do not affect combat)

 

It would be a certain reward for players who stayed alive for a long time, something to distinguish a newspawn from a veteran. Something which lets you identify more easily with your character. But nothing which you "need to have". From the start on, you would be 90 to 95% as effective as a vet player with 300 hours survived.

 

By the way, it is not only about improving your character. As I have written, the system could also be used to simulate negative effects, shortterm of e.g. illness or hunger, longterm to simulate the healing process of gunshot wounds.

 

This is not sparta, this is Apocalypse. I want that characters get only weaker and weaker, every hit that you take gets you weaker, every mile you walk makes you weaker and everyday you live ruins more your mind. 

 

Yea, perhaps that is the direction to go. Not to emphasize on "getting better" over time, but that it is more likely that your character gets weaker and weaker - until death.

Edited February 10, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[Mos1ey 6301]

 I'm in favor of the micro skills.

 

...But Rocket is not. He's excplicitly stated on mutliple occasions that he does not want a skill-type system in DayZ.

 

In DayZ your gear and items are your 'level' and you 'grind' by looting.

[GodOfGrain 191]

...But Rocket is not. He's excplicitly stated on mutliple occasions that he does not want a skill-type system in DayZ.

 

In DayZ your gear and items are your 'level' and you 'grind' by looting.

 

He also says "Yes, KOS is a problem and we have to do something to address it".

 

But he has not come up with any ideas to address it.

[Edit: Ok, destruction of gear by bullets is a good addition indeed]

 

Microskills would be an important part within a context of several game design elements which push the game in the right direction.

 

And it is a very logical step; logic nearly dictates the implementation of microskills. With the planned introduction of player bases, which allow hoarding of items, the value of a player's life will decrease even further. And if I remember right: Dean wants a survival simulation with interesting social interactions. Both design aims are severly hurt if progression relies solely on gear.

 

By the way, he also expressed himself in favour of skills in DayZ, not only in the following example:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/page-3#entry1207095

Edited February 10, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[Mos1ey 6301]

He also says "Yes, KOS is a problem and we have to do something to address it".

 

But he has not come up with any ideas to adress it.

 

Microskills would be an important part within a context of several game design elements which push the game in the right direction.

 

And it is a very logical step; logic nearly dictates the implementation of microskills. With the planned introduction of player bases, which allow hoarding of items, the value of a player's life will decrease even further. And if I remember right: Dean wants a survival simulation with interesting social interactions. Both design aims are severly hurt if progression relies solely on gear.

 

By the way, he also expressed himself in favour of skills in DayZ, not only in the following example:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/page-3#entry1207095

 

"I don’t want to get people’s hopes up about a skill system or skill tree"

 

Sounds promising. :D

 

Also, how old is that quote? He's talking about humanity etc...

[Shrapnel (DayZ) 13]

As much as i love RPG-style survival games.. Id much rather DayZ stick to its original blueprint.

 

You want a PvP survival game with skills and point grinding? Go play Haven&Hearth.

[DerDuderich 149]

Generally I like to read suggestions like this one, because I think some kind of skill system could make the game a lot better.

 

However, it needs to be balanced very, very carefully.

 

• All skills need to have the same "weight". From the moment where one skills is perceived to perform "overpowered" it will break the whole system because everyone will play that skill only.
• You should at all times be able to play the game alone. Which means there shouldn't be "skill-exclusive" activitys, but skills should at most speed up/enhance existing abilitys.
• Skills should not impact PvP, which means no Skills à la "more steady aim", "faster reload", "higher accuracy", etc.

The task is, to avoide a "WoW"-like gameplay, where you:

 

1. at some point become invincible for new players the more skills you have
2. at some point need a group because you can't play the game alone any longer

[GodOfGrain 191]

"I don’t want to get people’s hopes up about a skill system or skill tree"

 

Sounds promising. :D

 

Also, how old is that quote? He's talking about humanity etc...

 

"I don’t want to get people’s hopes up about a skill system or skill tree..."

and then his sentence continues with

"...so we’re more looking at how players develop the abilities to do certain things, and how players develop the ability to get better at doing things."

 

:D

 

And later:

 

"A couple of examples we thought of were very advanced skills, such as advanced repair of aircraft and vehicles. That’s not a skill that everybody has. And various doctor-related skills. They aren’t things that everybody just has; they’re things that maybe people can learn, but they’ll require practice and maybe some social interaction."

 

The interview was in Feb. 2013.

Edited February 10, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[S3V3N 1402]

Ok, I play 0.59 experimental now and some of the soft skills are in the game. So I wasn't sure if I should make a new thread. I just wanna write up some stuff, before I forget it. 

 

First of all, we have some level of soft skills now, but only when it comes to harvesting and skinning. I thought about future healing softskills and how they could affect the PvP gameplay. This idea/method could be expanded to all levels of soft skills. First off I list the example and then I'll explain:

 

A) Symptom/Sickness :                           B) Effect                           -                        C) Cure                                      -          D) Slowed Down By

 

brain prion desease: shaking, unsteady aim, blurred sight/flashes -   Bandaging others, Clean Blood Transfusion   -    Saline Bag, Sleep, Vitamins

(from cannibalism)

 

The goal is to achieve some balance between hunter/prey, scavenger/bandit gameplay. Of course any player can play any style, but cannibalism has consequences, which living healthy doesn't have. If you start to lose concentration and balance or aim, you need to counteract the effects of cannibalism by playing more cooperatively. Even if that means you shoot someone, just to bandage him afterwards it's better than the current KoS-situation.

 

Secondary effects to actions like healing other players could mean that e.g. the person who heals improves in both, their healing soft skill and also gets rewarded with slightly improved health (catches breath faster after running) or steadier aim in general. This could even work in bandit groups, as they would also benefit from the effect. The idea is that you receive an instant perk (even if is just a slight one) on top of improving your soft skill. You benefit in more than one way by playing cooperatively. 

 

Following these measures some other mechanics would have to be updated, like tying someone up or running with a broken leg. First, tying someone up should count as a positive thing. You didn't kill the person and allow her/him to continue. This could affect your overall quality and give you more energy from eating food for the next two hours ~ something like that, it's just an example. A lot of things you do are more than a one-cause action that way. You can actually actively influence, which qualities in your character you want to foster.

 

In order to keep people from just shooting their mates, quickly healing up and shooting them again, some of the inuries need to be tweaked. It would be good if healing broken limbs had some actual consequences. Like limping and decreased movement speed; probably a need for painkillers and rest. It should be a lot more difficult to heal from a broken limb than what it is now with the splints.   

 

So, I didn't think much about this idea and just wanted to get it down. I think the depth of the soft skills could be layered in a way that it affects across more skills of a person than just the one they were doing at that time (e.g. hunting->skinning=become better at skinning); that just won't do. Plus you can actually create reasons to play cooperative without taking away from the game. There is always the option to get better again. Should you survive the process of playing nicely for a while that is.   

Edited November 22, 2015 by S3V3N

[micalo 13]

Ok, I play 0.59 experimental now and some of the soft skills are in the game. So I wasn't sure if I should make a new thread. I just wanna write up some stuff, before I forget it. 

 

First of all, we have some level of soft skills now, but only when it comes to harvesting and skinning. I thought about future healing softskills and how they could affect the PvP gameplay. This idea/method could be expanded to all levels of soft skills. First off I list the example and then I'll explain:

 

A) Symptom/Sickness :                           B) Effect                           -                        C) Cure                                      -          D) Slowed Down By

 

brain prion desease: shaking, unsteady aim, blurred sight/flashes -   Bandaging others, Clean Blood Transfusion   -    Saline Bag, Sleep, Vitamins

(from cannibalism)

 

The goal is to achieve some balance between hunter/prey, scavenger/bandit gameplay. Of course any player can play any style, but cannibalism has consequences, which living healthy doesn't have. If you start to lose concentration and balance or aim, you need to counteract the effects of cannibalism by playing more cooperatively. Even if that means you shoot someone, just to bandage him afterwards it's better than the current KoS-situation.

  

 

I see it coming: you are not just killed and grilled, but kept imprisoned as living stock of fresh meat  :lol:

 

I have never done this so far in game (neither in real life ;-) but I don't think that the gameplay should be artificially balanced like that.

[S3V3N 1402]

I see it coming: you are not just killed and grilled, but kept imprisoned as living stock of fresh meat  :lol:

 

I have never done this so far in game (neither in real life ;-) but I don't think that the gameplay should be artificially balanced like that.

 

I disagree. Since the development so far has been heavily developing on PvP elements, lots of players have never even considered a different playstyle than KoS. The system I suggest is balanced so it lets the bandit play banditstyle and keep most of his health and sanity. But he has to work for it, not just lazily gun at everything. Banditry is the cheapest way to play the game, there's no effort needed now. No intention at communication, cooperation or sharing resources. It's not like I want to make banditry impossible and there will always be KoS. But bandits will be more effective in groups, whereas normal survivors aren't plagued with their problems. 

 

Again, this is only happening when someone constantly shoots players or eats human meat. It represents the declining mental state of the person. We have economies measuring food, blood, infection and water. On a sublevel mental health could be integrated, though there should be no "sanity" meter. Just visible and tactical differences that can be overcome by deviating from always the same playstyle. If you don't want to pay kindness to strangers you can always just treat or help your bandit buddies. There's lots of group dynamic potential here. And the system could be expanded greatly with other detrimental or beneficial effects; they would always be secondary to primary actions, such as healing/treating/repairing/hunting/killing human/eating human...basically everything could have a subset of effects. Where it makes sense at least.

[Espa 711]

I disagree. Since the development so far has been heavily developing on PvP elements, lots of players have never even considered a different playstyle than KoS. The system I suggest is balanced so it lets the bandit play banditstyle and keep most of his health and sanity. But he has to work for it, not just lazily gun at everything. Banditry is the cheapest way to play the game, there's no effort needed now. No intention at communication, cooperation or sharing resources. It's not like I want to make banditry impossible and there will always be KoS. But bandits will be more effective in groups, whereas normal survivors aren't plagued with their problems. 

 

Again, this is only happening when someone constantly shoots players or eats human meat. It represents the declining mental state of the person. We have economies measuring food, blood, infection and water. On a sublevel mental health could be integrated, though there should be no "sanity" meter. Just visible and tactical differences that can be overcome by deviating from always the same playstyle. If you don't want to pay kindness to strangers you can always just treat or help your bandit buddies. There's lots of group dynamic potential here. And the system could be expanded greatly with other detrimental or beneficial effects; they would always be secondary to primary actions, such as healing/treating/repairing/hunting/killing human/eating human...basically everything could have a subset of effects. Where it makes sense at least.

 

I really like the idea of declining mental faculties based on inhumane actions. - You could also extend that to having an unhealthy diet of only canned foods/soda. It'll fill them up, but it might give a debuff to slow down movement by 10% or something of that nature.

[S3V3N 1402]

I really like the idea of declining mental faculties based on inhumane actions. - You could also extend that to having an unhealthy diet of only canned foods/soda. It'll fill them up, but it might give a debuff to slow down movement by 10% or something of that nature.

 

Among those lines, but I'd keep the effects subtle, so you can't gain serious (but slight) advantages by making use of the subset system. What we see in game at the moment is a chain of cause+effect, like hungry=eat something. The consequence of overeating is stuffed, then vomiting. I'd like to add consequences like that to more systems and have them influence gameplay features. It's a bit tricky, because it is easy to see it as a disadvantage to the bandit game, but really it is more of a challenge. When you play cannibalism and bandit all the time you will have to adapt your playstyle. You'll either have to move closer up or become better at aiming quickly or firing from the hip, in order to get a kill. You'll band together in case one of you needs medical attention. Most likely you will trade or scavenge for meds, too. There is a situation of mutual need for each other, which currently isn't in the game. My goal is to create a grey-zone, between the black and white gameplay we have now and give everyone a reason to keep another player alive or at least thinking twice before opening fire.

 

If you are healthy and play "good" for most of the time, none of that matters. You'll hardly get affected by the subsystems at all. But you have to scavenge more for your living and engage less in PvP, eat no human meat and keep things clean. As a bandit you'll have better access to gear and do more looting than the cooperative player, but you have to keep your shit together and counter the negative effects of the lifestyle to keep in shape.

 

What I've also been thinking about is yet another layer: temporal effects or buffs. For example: eating human meat is bad for you and there is no way around that. However, while the longterm effects are bad, there could be a short rush of energy, i.e. temporarily increasing your health or stamina for a set duration of time. That way, you'd be more ready for a dangerous situation. This could again apply to all sort of actions and items and be combined in different ways with other secondary effects. So there could be other ways to get the same or similar effect, but they most likely involve some work/crafting or rare pickups. 

 

You'd actually build and experience unique characters with the depth this system achieves. Every life will be slightly different and you'll learn more about customising your character by doing it yourself than any game can offer in a character building screen. Since these effects are all secondary (or even tertiary), they won't massively affect your gameplay, but they'll help you make decisions about where you wanna go with your character development.     

Edited November 23, 2015 by S3V3N

[Espa 711]

Had some ideas to follow-up on the inclusion of Micro-skills.

 

~Sneaking: This would allow for crouched walk to have dampened noise crunch as well as effective sneaking (reasonably, of course) near infected/other players. This could be recorded as every such-and-so distance walked in this manner would allow for 10% noise dampened crouched movement, up to a 50% marker. 

 

~Hardiness: A minor reward to players who have played for long and hard. A system that records every 100 food/beverage items that you have consumed, effectively increasing your 'full/energized/hydrated' effect by 1%, up to a maximum of 10%.

 

~Alertness: This is an idea I need to ponder more on, but I'd imagine that not everyone would react so calmly to everything in game - But alas, we don't want to make flavor become more than just flavor and wreck the players' good time, so here's my idea! 

-Simply different states of being depending on what is going on!

 

-Panicked: Shot, hit with weapon, or mauled by infected. (Increase movement speed by 10%, blurry edges on screen as rapid breathing)

-Relaxed: After smoking a cigarette, drinking alcohol, sitting by a fire, or simply resting in place while hydrated/energized. (Crisp edges, slightly less weapon sway)

-Battered: Exposed to orange alerts for far too long, whether hungry or thirsty or bleeding. (Slows movement speed by 10%, less contrast)

 

ETC. I'm not entirely sure on every alertness, but an interesting idea at least!