Third person view removal from SA discussion

[DaGolem 95]

This is a MMO not a FPS, argument of FPS is invalid and MMO is most of the time Thirdperson ;)

 

There is a future solution it called "Serveroptions"

 

AND AGAIN and AGAIN....if you want Firstperson then play on Firstperson Servers!!!

Don´t be a antisocial asshole and force all people to play that what you want!

Only wanker acting this way. ;)

[dallas 5195]

Problem is no one wants to play on first person servers.

[dnk 18]

Regarding popularity of 1st: for the mod, BMRF had 2 hives: 1st-only and 3rd. I recall there was only 1 server for FPV, while TPV had like 6 or 8 servers. I think the FPV servers were generally less full also. You could check with the admins to make sure I'm remembering it correctly, but that was a decently large community that should've been fairly representative of the whole. I think Breaking Point in A3 also has this dual mode approach, and the hardcore server's alone against another 6-8 TPV servers. And just like BMRF, the FPV server guys have to keep drumming up support in the forums to try to get more players on.

I don't doubt FPV is popular with a small minority, and there's no reason we can't have separate "hardcore" hives with FPV-only for the SA, but it's silly to force it for everyone. This is the best compromise I can think of, because it really doesn't hurt either side, and it's fully possible right now.

For TPV, I would like it if it was a bit more constrained in how far from the player the camera was rotating. The camera can get 5+ feet away from the player's head, and that gives it a huge advantage in PvP. I think there should be a minor amount of "peeking" possible in TPV, because that would be possible in reality but very hard/impossible given the engine's constraints. Something around 1-2 feet of TPV distance is a good compromise between "hardcore realism" and "playability and peekability".

[deevote 21]

This is a MMO not a FPS, argument of FPS is invalid and MMO is most of the time Thirdperson ;)

 

There is a future solution it called "Serveroptions"

 

AND AGAIN and AGAIN....if you want Firstperson then play on Firstperson Servers!!!

Don´t be a antisocial asshole and force all people to play that what you want!

Only wanker acting this way. ;)

 

 

Why play on a first person only server when I can play third person on another server and have more security? That's why no one plays on first person only servers. The option is there, and ofcourse everyone is going to take the easier route. Its human nature really. No reward, no point.

[dnk 18]

 

The way I see it, the pvp'ers benefit greatly from having third person view. They can sit in the safety of complete cover, while either waiting for or watching their prey. They only have to expose themselves for a split second to take a shot, then quickly back down to cover. All the while, they're completely aware of their surroundings.

 

So, while I can go to great lengths to follow proper tactics, clearing treelines and moving to cover, all in an attempt to loot some beans and not get killed. It's all for nothing because a guy can sit on his ass on some rooftop out of sight of everybody, see me coming and pop up and take the shot.

 

Sucks how this is how reality works also. Snipers, ambushers, they're usually a lot harder to spot than in this simplistic engine. The following was written for A3, but it's even more valid for the SA:

 

I think most of this complaining over 3rd person is about campers as well. Arma does a terrible job of simulating:

 

1. dark interiors/HDR (they're usually as visible as exteriors - good luck seeing someone hiding in a darkened room, peeking out through a slit in some blinds from outside on a sunny day from just 100m away)
   
2. diversity of clutter (in-game, I know what the clutter objects look like from having seen the same 10 or so bushes and 20 or so houses 1000 times over
3. it's not hard to spot players when you know the exact floorplans -- in reality, a clump of bushes/grass/logs is always unique, and you have to actually LOOK at that for a bit to see if a concealed, shaded person is hiding amongst it)
   
4. low texture/model detail for many players' clients (though player models are a lot higher in detail, and tend to contrast heavily in longer range scenarios with the low-res/LOD background)
   
5. poor/no grass concealment (player models stick out like sore thumbs since there's no blurring of edges or background noise - a player is basically ALWAYS silhouetted)
   
6. exterior clutter (a lot less noisy than in reality, mostly reduced to a flat, uniform terrain grid at a distance, even with the special midrange textures in the mod)
   
7. exterior shade (none past 200m tops, only limited camouflaging compared to reality within 200m)
   
8. exterior/interior movement (whether foliage or curtains or whatever, there's next to none, and a moving player is super easily spotted at any distance by comparison to reality)
   
9. self-camouflaging (I can't jury rig a ghillie in Arma, but it only takes 30-60min to attach a bunch of clutter to yourself in reality, and maybe 6 hours to do a proper ghillie with materials, which I'd do ASAP if I ever found myself in this sort of situation (or just break out my premade one))

You know, when you take all these anti-camper, anti-ambusher things together, the "crutch" of 3rd person invisible camping starts to be a very fair compromise between gamey-obviousness and reality-concealment.

 

Regarding just general peeking: Also, ALL movement in Arma is "twitchy". A good part of not being seen when peeking around corners or scoping out an area is in making slow, smooth movements. The human eye notices movement as much if not more than it notices the actual human form. I can't smoothly peek around a corner in Arma, remaining unobvious to someone not otherwise focused on that corner, but in reality I could just edge the corner of my face/eye out slowly, look, and then go back without making a jerking movement, or having to go out an extra half foot more than I wanted because such are the clunky controls we have in-game.

 

Not only does 3rd person make interior movements easier, reduce 1st person headaches from the clunky, unsmooth movements, and also just is more enjoyable (personally), but it helps counter all of the above in making spotting people harder at all distances and especially in camping situations.

[serenityrick 218]

I'm worried that first person servers will end up being just like non-24/7 day servers at prime time... relatively empty.

 

I don't mind playing at night at all... except EVERYONE piles into 24/7 day servers. And because I value playing with the maximum amount of people, I mostly ignore regular servers.. which ultimately is my decision but rather sucky that I'm more or less forced into gimmicky servers because people need their hand held constantly. "ALWAYS DAYLIGHT!" "3RD PERSON GHOSTING CAM!" and eventually "200+ VEHICLES!!!!" :/

[Aussie Bogan 350]

If you don't want to be called stupid, don't say stupid things. I'm not really here to insult you, but I'm not going to censor myself if I feel like you're being an idiot for the sake of being an idiot.

 

Don't reply to my posts and ignore the debate I'm trying to have with you guys. Simple.

 

How is someone having a difference in opinion stupid... Your mentality makes no sense..

 

"I'm not really here to insult you"        

Wooah you could have fooled me... 

 

On any occasion in this forum it is weak to personalty attack others (It's irrelevant and immature) ,  i could insult you personally right now i will be the bigger man and turn the other cheek ;) Good day sir

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

How is someone having a difference in opinion stupid... Your mentality makes no sense..

 

"I'm not really here to insult you"        

Wooah you could have fooled me... 

 

On any occasion in this forum it is weak to personalty attack others (It's irrelevant and immature) ,  i could insult you personally right now i will be the bigger man and turn the other cheek ;) Good day sir

 

You're being a pretty petty bigger man. Focusing on all the insults instead of actually discussing the points I bring up. But hey, that's cool. Good day.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

 

it helps counter all of the above in making spotting people harder at all distances and especially in camping situations.

 

Impossible isn't harder, impossible is impossible.

[dnk 18]

Impossible isn't harder, impossible is impossible.

 

It's pretty close to that in a lot of real-world situations. Close enough that we're not losing much by switching from "near-impossible" to "impossible" for the sake of a major gameplay benefit by keeping TPV.

 

REALITY

 

vs

 

ARMA

 

(note that the "Arma" is actually A3 and not even the real game, but a demo of a possible rendering method to greatly increase concealment at a distance)

REALITY

 

vs

 

ARMA

 

In reality urban or wilderness snipers are an extreme menace. They can live for a long time. It's not like you can't ambush, snipe, or camp a place in reality without being spotted immediately. Some guy with a reflex sight isn't going to spot them within 5 seconds and blast them, and a simple pair of binoculars isn't going to be enough to spot a well concealed and expert sniper with all the time in the world. Even if the guy with the binoculars is trained in spotting them as well as they've been trained to remain concealed.

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[DaGolem 95]

Why play on a first person only server when I can play third person on another server and have more security? That's why no one plays on first person only servers. The option is there, and ofcourse everyone is going to take the easier route. Its human nature really. No reward, no point.

 

Yeah totaly logical, If the mass of the players don´t like to play Firstperson then let the will of the few win and force Firstperson only.   rofl

 

In other Words " I play DayZ only for PVP Gaming this is why i think this MMO is a FPS Game. I love to kill people and i need something that make it easier for me to kill more people. So i want that the mass of the player have no choice and must be play this game like i want them to play, because my will and the will of the few is more importantent then the will of the mass! I don´t care about fair solutions and the other gamers fun, because my will and the will of the few is more importantent then the fun of the mass. So lets destroy the fun of the mass to get the will of the few"

Edited December 30, 2013 by DaGolem

[dallas 5195]

Regarding popularity of 1st: for the mod, BMRF had 2 hives: 1st-only and 3rd. I recall there was only 1 server for FPV, while TPV had like 6 or 8 servers. I think the FPV servers were generally less full also. You could check with the admins to make sure I'm remembering it correctly, but that was a decently large community that should've been fairly representative of the whole. I think Breaking Point in A3 also has this dual mode approach, and the hardcore server's alone against another 6-8 TPV servers. And just like BMRF, the FPV server guys have to keep drumming up support in the forums to try to get more players on.

I don't doubt FPV is popular with a small minority, and there's no reason we can't have separate "hardcore" hives with FPV-only for the SA, but it's silly to force it for everyone. This is the best compromise I can think of, because it really doesn't hurt either side, and it's fully possible right now.

For TPV, I would like it if it was a bit more constrained in how far from the player the camera was rotating. The camera can get 5+ feet away from the player's head, and that gives it a huge advantage in PvP. I think there should be a minor amount of "peeking" possible in TPV, because that would be possible in reality but very hard/impossible given the engine's constraints. Something around 1-2 feet of TPV distance is a good compromise between "hardcore realism" and "playability and peekability".

I'm not sure separating the hives, will do first person players any favours.

 

No third person players are going to gear up on third person servers, just to go to a first person server for combat. So what you're basically doing is limiting the servers first person players can save to, which means they'll probably continue to prioritize the busy third person servers.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Dallas

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

It's pretty close to that in a lot of real-world situations. Close enough that we're not losing much by switching from "near-impossible" to "impossible" for the sake of a major gameplay benefit by keeping TPV.

 

What benefit? We're all subject to the same difficulty in hiding ourselves. Why dose the person abusing the camera get an advantage? Should we add some kind of crawl under the ground ability then? I mean, potentially I could camo myself and move really slowly across a grassy field, but in-game I stick out because undergrowth disappears at distance, so I wanna be able to crawl under the ground a foot but still see and stuff. And nobody should be able to shoot me until I poke my head up, even if they know where I am. Cause that would totally benefit gameplay, right?

[deevote 21]

Yeah totaly logical, If the mass of the players don´t like to play Firstperson then let the will of the few win and force Firstperson only.   rofl

 

In other Words " I play DayZ only for PVP Gaming this is why i think this MMO is a FPS Game. I love to kill people and i need something that make it easier for me to kill more people. So i want that the mass of the player have no choice and must be play this game like i want them to play, because my will and the will of the few is more importantent then the will of the mass! I don´t care about fair solutions and the other gamers fun, because my will and the will of the few is more importantent then the fun of the mass. So lets destroy the fun of the mass to get the will of the few"

 

I'm assuming you didn't even read my post..

[dnk 18]

What benefit? We're all subject to the same difficulty in hiding ourselves. Why dose the person abusing the camera get an advantage? Should we add some kind of crawl under the ground ability then? I mean, potentially I could camo myself and move really slowly across a grassy field, but in-game I stick out because undergrowth disappears at distance, so I wanna be able to crawl under the ground a foot but still see and stuff. And nobody should be able to shoot me until I poke my head up, even if they know where I am. Cause that would totally benefit gameplay, right?

 

The benefits of mirroring reality's concealment, the benefits of moving indoors, the benefits of aesthetics (many people clearly prefer 3rd), the benefits of more realistic situational awareness from missing sense.

 

I would like to see your proposed system added, or at least the grass occlusion method greatly improved upon. I have been very vocal about that in the A3 community (the first ARMA picture is an example of what I'd like to see). I recognize you were being sarcastic, but I still agree.

 

Note I edited my post after you responded.

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[BelMarduk 169]

No it really shouldn't. If you have it as an option, all the servers turn it on and you get the same problem we had in the mod. Server owners want players so they have to make things as easy as possible to get more people in. And you end up with 3rd person, 24/7 daylight 10,000 vehicles.

 

It needs to just be off.

Eaxctly, just as in the MOD, and is now in the SA many servers will be rented by the community. *and real quick I need to ad, why would there need to be a separate hive? that's just silly talk, it is a server option, no need for a separate hive*... So Strat, and gobonez or however you spell it, and all the rest of you 'play my way or no way' nobs, go rent your own servers and play in 1st to your hearts content. Then, us 3rd person cheaters can play our way and you hardcore leet gamers can play your way, and everyone is happy.... Oh unless like in the MOD, everyone screams for 1st person only servers, then they perpetually sit empty.  Another added bonus for that is that you guys can come slumming down to the 3rd person servers any time you want, and us sad silly crutch needing gamers can come try the 'big leagues' every now and again (if any 1st person servers survive past the first months rental...)

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

There's no risk & reward in third person view or being under the ground a foot. In real life, while you can hide better, you can't hide perfect, you have to expose yourself at least a bit to get a peak at something. In dayz, you risk nothing and see everything.

[cywehner1234 582]

There's no risk & reward in third person view or being under the ground a foot. In real life, while you can hide better, you can't hide perfect, you have to expose yourself at least a bit to get a peak at something. In dayz, you risk nothing and see everything.

Ill stick to my third person. I enjoy running around in third, thanks. I don't combat in third. If 3rd was removed from this game, I don't even know if I could play this game anymore tbh.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Eaxctly, just as in the MOD, and is now in the SA many servers will be rented by the community. *and real quick I need to ad, why would there need to be a separate hive? that's just silly talk, it is a server option, no need for a separate hive*... So Strat, and gobonez or however you spell it, and all the rest of you 'play my way or no way' nobs, go rent your own servers and play in 1st to your hearts content. Then, us 3rd person cheaters can play our way and you hardcore leet gamers can play your way, and everyone is happy.... Oh unless like in the MOD, everyone screams for 1st person only servers, then they perpetually sit empty.  Another added bonus for that is that you guys can come slumming down to the 3rd person servers any time you want, and us sad silly crutch needing gamers can come try the 'big leagues' every now and again (if any 1st person servers survive past the first months rental...)

 

I don't know why you guys like to turn this debate into some kind of personal jab at third person players. We're talking about game development, if you can't look at things objectively, your arguments will always be completely biased towards whatever suits you as a player.

 

A lot of the people pushing for the removal of third person use third person view all the time. DayZ is all about using the tools we're given to survive and have fun in the world they've built for us. When we use those tools and feel like one of them makes things far too easy, or feel like the tool hurts potentially great situations, we're going to request that tool be removed from the game. Not because we will benefit, because the game will benefit.

[BelMarduk 169]

But again... that "presence" you get doesn't pin point where still enemies are around a corner... and 3rd person cameras do. That's a really cheap argument.

From way back in the MOD I have been arguing (and somewhere in every thread Ive posted in on this subject) for what that fellow did in the the mod (video first page, is after or before the 'merge') Doing a ray cast LOS rendering. If I couldn't see you in first person, I shouldn't see you in third. It is confirmed that it can be done on this engine, so it should be/could be the mitigating 'fix' we all need. And for all you dead set ONLY FIRST PERSON, but then say, well, 3rd is ok for in vehicles, yah of course its ok for vehicles. GET BENT, you all just destroyed your personal credibility and invalidated ALL your arguments, FOV sliders etc... (aside from seeing players around corners, that argument is always valid).

[dnk 18]

Yeah, that raycasting would be nice, but then you lose the ability to truly conceal yourself and be sneaky. The game engine just isn't set up for it - limited shadows, limited HDR, limited visual clutter, very limited at longer ranges when LODs/textures/grass get downscaled or outright removed.

 

I recognize that TPV in its current "wide arc" state is gamey and gives the player far too much of a view, but removing that view (around a corner, etc) entirely is also unrealistic. I cannot quickly or smoothly peek around a corner without twitching a large part of my body out and making a scene of it. I also can't camp in almost absolute concealment because that's literally impossible in this engine at almost any distance without a sort of TPV "cheat".

 

The real solution is to just limit TPV to a closer arc around the player's head. 1 or 2 feet back instead of maxing out at like 4 or 6 feet back.

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[BelMarduk 169]

I don't know why you guys like to turn this debate into some kind of personal jab at third person players. We're talking about game development, if you can't look at things objectively, your arguments will always be completely biased towards whatever suits you as a player.

 

A lot of the people pushing for the removal of third person use third person view all the time. DayZ is all about using the tools we're given to survive and have fun in the world they've built for us. When we use those tools and feel like one of them makes things far too easy, or feel like the tool hurts potentially great situations, we're going to request that tool be removed from the game. Not because we will benefit, because the game will benefit.

That is a true statement. We use the tools given. Seems to me, there are (in the SA) two options (game wide) that can change the 'difficulty' of the game. 1st/3rd person and cross hairs. The MOD had name tags, death messages, way points, on map locator etc... The SA seems to be limited to two. I always play in third, but go into first when any encounter is about to happen. Do I 'peek' around corners? yes, am I proud that I do? no. Have I been killed by more people that peeked me first? you betcha. Do I think that in and of itself is reason to take 3rd away? absolutely not. Take away the ability to see other players in 3rd, if you can not see them in first and all is well, everyone happy. Outside of that, separate servers is the second best option. The absolute worst option is limit the entire game to 1st person only. 

Its nothing personal, until personal. B)

[onlyomaha 7]

the 1st person is kinda bad in this alfa stage. Unresponsive, laggy, etc. Maybe later it would be great.

[AP_Norris 1018]

I hate reddit because whenever I post something about removing 3rd person I get -20

I hate reddit because the people that are absolutely neutral get +5 and people like me that talk about a concerning matter get -20

[BelMarduk 169]

Yeah, that raycasting would be nice, but then you lose the ability to truly conceal yourself and be sneaky. The game engine just isn't set up for it - limited shadows, limited HDR, limited visual clutter, very limited at longer ranges when LODs/textures/grass get downscaled or outright removed.

 

I recognize that TPV in its current "wide arc" state is gamey and gives the player far too much of a view, but removing that view (around a corner, etc) entirely is also unrealistic. I cannot quickly or smoothly peek around a corner without twitching a large part of my body out and making a scene of it. I also can't camp in almost absolute concealment because that's literally impossible in this engine at almost any distance without a sort of TPV "cheat".

 

The real solution is to just limit TPV to a closer arc around the player's head. 1 or 2 feet back instead of maxing out at like 4 or 6 feet back.

I dont follow. What do you mean "...lose the ability to truly conceal yourself and be sneaky."?  You will actually be able to be more sneaky, than in straight up 1st, as you can see your body in relation to everything around you (part of that sense of presence I go on about).

You gain everything you want (as a first person proponent), the only legitimate argument being, TPV seeing other players over walls and around corners. That problem is mitigated with raycasting.

I honestly do not understand what your getting at in the second paragraph (unless sarcasm?).