Correcting SA ballistics

[-Gews- 7443]

So what exactly is the velocity difference between a DayZ .45 ACP at 150 meters and a real .45 ACP round, 0.00001 %, 0.1%, 10%, 50%?

That depends. I put "real life" in brackets because it varies.

At 50 meters, about 5% off. At 150 meters, about 15% off.

With the suggested corrections, about 0.1-0.5% off at 50m, about 0.2-1.0% off at 150m.

[pbrunk 114]

is fixing this just a matter of changing variables?

[-Gews- 7443]

is fixing this just a matter of changing variables?

Yes.

[Judopunch 523]

The game isnt done yet first of all. 

 

Second of all people should stop expecting moc reality. Though these exercises are fun, this is not infant reality, it is a game. Reality must be sacrificed for the sake of the game.

 

If you dont believe me how fun would this game be if you could never log out? How would you recreate the entire world? Why are we not wet if we washed up on shore? 

 

If weapons are as accurate as they are in real life they should be shot in real life. There is no draw distance in real life. There is no bush rendering max in real life. You can pivot your head in real life. You can not sprint indefinitely for 4 hours in real life. So what is the benefit, from a game play perspective, of having laser accurate bullets? If thats the case they better work on something better than occulas rift or the alt button so you can be more aware of your surroundings, among the million other real life things. 

 

How about how scopes would have to fog up on cold days? Or letting us lean and slide into cover? Or allowing me to kick a door down or a time switch for me to turn a door nob. Shoot i should be able to master key a door with an underberral attachment.

 

 

there will always be a million ways to make the game more real. The challenge in GAME DESIGN is how do we make a compelling GAME that provides a good experience for players. Realism can be an inspiration but it is not the master.

[Judopunch 523]

I don't think you've understood the topic. One's level of training has nothing to do with a projectile's muzzle velocity or its behaviour while in flight.

 

As well, this is not recommending any changes in damage or weapon characteristics so it can hardly be called a nerf...

This is where your logic train fails. Changing the velocity of the round changes the weapon characteristic called velocity :P

 

Ones level of training has a lot to do with how the weapon behaves. For instance im still trying to break the habbit of pulling left with my pistol while I pull the trigger.

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

No one said the game is done, the purpose of participating in this Alpha is feedback and squashing bugs. I certainly hope this isn't intended or final because it's awful. This is one reason I simply don't play the Standalone right now.

 

Did you play the mod? ArmA 2 had relatively realistic ballistic behavior, DayZ's is silly.

[-Gews- 7443]

The game isnt done yet first of all. 

 

Second of all people should stop expecting moc reality. Though these exercises are fun, this is not infant reality, it is a game. Reality must be sacrificed for the sake of the game.

 

If you dont believe me how fun would this game be if you could never log out? How would you recreate the entire world? Why are we not wet if we washed up on shore?

What does this have to do with this thread? This sounds like it belong in the weapon accuracy thread. How does having correct aerodynamics negatively affect your gameplay? How is having correct muzzle velocities off-putting?

 

Unless, they wanted it that way, to make it seem like we are civilians and not trained soldier. However we can only speculate.

Watch out I see the 12 gauge getting nerfed LOL

I don't think you've understood the topic. One's level of training has nothing to do with a projectile's muzzle velocity or its behaviour while in flight.

As well, this is not recommending any changes in damage or weapon characteristics so it can hardly be called a nerf...

This is where your logic train fails. Changing the velocity of the round changes the weapon characteristic called velocity :P

Ones level of training has a lot to do with how the weapon behaves. For instance im still trying to break the habbit of pulling left with my pistol while I pull the trigger.

[a] unless good shots have somehow developed telekinesis, they aren't going to be able to change the velocity or the in-flight aerodynamics.

Unless training under Yoda are they.

the average player doesn't notice the difference.

[somethingbloody 118]

Beans. I can't imagine why this won't be fixed. In fact I don't know why it would be like this at the current stage at all.

Rocket has said he wants real world knowledge to have value in DayZ, and having these weird independent game physics where a .357 round or shell load act like high velocity rifle rounds rewards obscure game knowledge and punishes real knowledge. I hope you get more beans and some-one takes a look at this, if they're not aware of the problem already.

[Judopunch 523]

What does this have to do with this thread? This sounds like it belong in the weapon accuracy thread. How does having correct aerodynamics negatively affect your gameplay? How is having correct muzzle velocities off-putting?

As per your example "At 50 meters, about 5% off. At 150 meters, about 15% off." In the case of the .45 the round is slower at 150m than it is in real life. 

 

This changes how the player must lead his target, even if only slightly. When combine with dispersion this adjusts the effective range of the weapon.

 

The question becomes "what is the benefit of having weapons resemble real world velocity's, in the game DayZ". Weapons with high velocity will be innately more accurate because the time to target is going to be less. This means you dont need to lead as much and your target has less reaction time. It also increases the effective engagement range. By lowering velocity you make leading the target more difficult, and allow an evasive target to have more luck in zigging at the right time to avoid bullets.

 

In the case of the .45 above, the weapon is clearly superior at 50m because the bullet is moving faster, even though the dispersion of the weapon is quite wide. However at the 150m mark the dispersion is massive and the bullet is slow complicating the shooters ability to effectively engage the target. 

 

So if we adjust the velocity of the .45 to make it faster we make the range of 150m have less of an impact on accuracy because we decrease the time to target.

 

Therefore velocity has an effect on weapon balance, if not there would be no balance change if you had a gun that fired at 1 meter per second or 10,000 meters per second.

 

Edit: Now a discussion on the impact of current weapon velocity and dispersion, and how it effects gameplay would be more valuable how comparable it is to real life :)

Edited January 23, 2014 by Judopunch

[-Gews- 7443]

-snip-

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!

You serious? Worst. Points. Ever.

I'm sure combat will be oh-so-affected by the proposed 1/20th of a second decrease in flight time when trying to lead shots with a .45 handgun at 150 meters.

As for turning bullets into paintballs to allow teh bambehs to skip freely through the fields... with the exception of the .45, all of these rounds are way too fast, in most cases sped up to physically impossible levels, so there goes the survivability and game balance theory.

You know why the ballistics are wrong? Because they copy-pasted the values from ARMA and haven't gone over them properly.

End. Of. Discussion.

Edit: Now a discussion on the impact of current weapon velocity and dispersion, and how it effects gameplay would be more valuable how comparable it is to real life :)

[a] There is a separate thread for dispersion. This thread deals with external ballistics ONLY.

It doesn't affect people's gameplay in any noticeable way. It's the knowledge that it's true to life, and not numbers pulled out of a hat.

[wartzilla 182]

I can't believe I'm giving beans to a guy unironically using pony image macros to make his points, but that does say a lot about the posts of the people trying to claim the current faulty ballistics are a-okay.

[fig0451 85]

You know why the ballistics are wrong? Because they copy-pasted the values from ARMA and haven't gone over them properly.

This. A million times this. I can't understand how this hasn't been fixed yet. It would literally involve going through a few files and changing a few numbers. Anyone who can operate Notepad could accomplish this task in maybe 10 minutes, max. Add another 10 minutes (max) to commit the changes. BAM! Done.

In general, another great ballistics post Gews.

 

Unfortunately, the devs seem to just not give a flying fuck about making the weapons properly. Really hoping they'll do something useful with thirty million dollars, like hire more people, or lay out a more comprehensive development plan.

Edited January 23, 2014 by fig0451

[Judopunch 523]

You serious? Worst. Points. Ever.

I'm sure combat will be oh-so-affected by the proposed 1/20th of a second decrease in flight time when trying to lead shots with a .45 handgun at 150 meters.

As for turning bullets into paintballs to allow teh bambehs to skip freely through the fields... with the exception of the .45, all of these rounds are way too fast, in most cases sped up to physically impossible levels, so there goes the survivability and game balance theory.

It doesn't affect people's gameplay in any noticeable way. It's the knowledge that it's true to life, and not numbers pulled out of a hat.

Than why does it warrant attention of any kind, if it doesnt affect peoples game-play in any noticeable way?

 

You cant have it both ways, either I am right and it has a measurable impact on game balance, or you are right and it doesn't affect game-play in a meaningful way its useless to discuss in the context of the game.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Judopunch

[-Gews- 7443]

^

 

This is me right now

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This site can be bad for one's health, my blood pressure must be 200/80.

[Judopunch 523]

This is about the 5th time you have avoided discussing the relevance of your proposed changes.

 

Either I am right and it has a measurable impact on game balance, or you are right and it doesn't affect game-play in a meaningful way its useless to discuss in the context of the game. 

 

Furthermore, Id rather have the team working on bug fixes instead of adjusting numbers that you insist dont effect game-play.

[xRann 126]

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

I'd like to know just how exactly you are getting these figures? How can you possibly measure the velocity of bullets in SA?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think the guns are all wrong right now, but I still wonder how you get this info?

[dsi24 227]

Definitely a required change.

 

It'd be nice to be able to play around with the ArmA3 Ballistic Tracer script to see wtf is going on with penetration, ricochets, how far you can really shoot, etc.

[-Gews- 7443]

This is about the 5th time you have avoided discussing the relevance of your proposed changes.

 

Nope, I already said it very clearly:

 

It doesn't affect people's gameplay in any noticeable way. It's the knowledge that it's true to life, and not numbers pulled out of a hat.

 

With lack of wind drift and auto-zeroing, either this is going to be important to you, or it's not, either way refer to the sentence above.

 

 

 

 

I'd like to know just how exactly you are getting these figures? How can you possibly measure the velocity of bullets in SA?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think the guns are all wrong right now, but I still wonder how you get this info?

 

 

Same system as in ARMA, ARMA 2 and ARMA 3, they haven't changed it one bit (this is a good thing), hence all the values pulled from the ARMA series. You can make a script and track them.

 

V: -0.0135258 XY: [3626.07,3343.76,64.5313]T: 0.28

V: -0.767854 XY: [3593.84,3382.18,64.508]T: 0.35

V: -1.69837 XY: [3554.14,3429.51,64.3937]T: 0.42

V: -2.43109 XY: [3522.97,3466.66,64.2324]T: 0.49

V: -3.12758 XY: [3493.46,3501.84,64.0169]T: 0.56

 

[irishroy 1347]

the change with the shotgunthingy..

Will this nerf the shotgun's damage? ;)

Because when lowering the velocity from 900 to 404, the dmg will drop by ~45%  :s

[-Gews- 7443]

the change with the shotgunthingy..

Will this nerf the shotgun's damage? ;)

Because when lowering the velocity from 900 to 404, the dmg will drop by ~45%  :s

 

No, it's not really related, you can set the velocity the normal damage is done at.

[irishroy 1347]

Hm, okey.

So less velocity, but same damage.

I could deal with this ;)

 

What about slugs then?

Faster than buckshot, slower than buckshot?

[-Gews- 7443]

Hm, okey.

So less velocity, but same damage.

I could deal with this ;)

 

What about slugs then?

Faster than buckshot, slower than buckshot?

 

Depends on the load, of which there are hundreds. Generally faster. Full-power 1oz slugs are generally advertised at around 1600 fps. 9-pellet 00 buckshot is in the 1300 fps range. Reduced recoil slugs are in the 1200-1300 fps range, reduced recoil 00 buckshot is in the 1100-1200 fps range.The numbers are usually for full-length barrels.

[louist 163]

Looks like Rocket and co are incorporating Gew's changes. Well done, sir!

[Rudette 435]

Grats you!