Should there be Character Progression in the SA?

[WBK 176]

Guys this is a touchy subject, but after a brief look through the forums I couldn't find any in-depth examinations into just what the community's opinion on character progression is. So I thought I'd make a poll.

For now I'll leave commenting open on this because I think discussion would be important. I tried to cover all the bases with my questions but there's obviously going to be a few things people feel are missing. If you think I left out an important option for one of the questions, just suggest it in the comments and I'll probably put it in.

My opinion? I'll save that for later ;)

Edited November 16, 2013 by WBK

[wild_man 4442]

after you are dead screen all progress reset ;)

 

poll is broken :blush:

 

if I answer NO for Q1 I don't have option for Q3 so poll don't register vote :huh:

Edited November 15, 2013 by KoS

[Oliver Riedel 176]

No, I would hate to see this. I think this would be game breaking enough for me to quit. For many reasons.

 

(Also, your poll dosent work. for the poll to work you have to cast a vote in each section of the poll.)

[leviski 2152]

There has been HUNDREDS of threads on this

 

and the answer is a NO

 

rocket even said so himself.

 

if progression was put in the game, it would be invisible, and very small

 

The character progression is how good YOU are, not your character.

[meat pie 632]

No, I would hate to see this. I think this would be game breaking enough for me to quit. For many reasons.

 

(Also, your poll dosent work. for the poll to work you have to cast a vote in each section of the poll.)

 

^this

[fluxley 2228]

There has been HUNDREDS of threads on this

 

and the answer is a NO

 

rocket even said so himself.

 

if progression was put in the game, it would be invisible, and very small

 

The character progression is how good YOU are, not your character.

 

Actually Rocket has said they are looking at ways to add character progression that goes beyond gear.

 

 

 

• Value of Life. The player themselves needs to value their LIFE not just their GEAR, whether bandit or hero. We don't want a skill system, but we want the characters to grow and improve over time. This will be a tacit thing based on what your character does. This means that a player who has lost all their gear still has a reason to continue, and also a bandit has more to risk by getting killed.

source http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1jy017/sa_kos_suggestion/cbjf03z?context=3

 

 

The difference between "skills" and "skill trees", and why skills are good for DayZ by daaaaannnin dayz

 

 

[–]rocket2guns 148 points

4 months ago

Agree for the most part, we are going to look at how doing something many times will make you better at it or develop your character in other ways

source http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1gngfw/the_difference_between_skills_and_skill_trees_and/calx9lg?context=3

 

I personally support the idea, without some kind of character progression we will always have the issue of whenever someone gets seriously ill they can just stash their gear somewhere and suicide.

Now that to me is game breaking.

[leviski 2152]

Need I quote myself and say that the only type of character progression that will ever make it into the game is small invisible character progression.

 

Such as fixing alot of people makes you noticeably better at being a medic, however you get no alerts or lists that tell you this.

 

 

That is what rocket said.

 

That is what I just said.

Edited November 15, 2013 by leviski

[fluxley 2228]

Need I quote myself and say that the only type of character progression that will ever make it into the game is small invisible character progression.

 

Such as fixing alot of people makes you noticeably better at being a medic, however you get no alerts or lists that tell you this.

 

 

That is what rocket said.

 

That is what I just said.

 

You also said the answer is NO,

 

and so contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

[WBK 176]

Sorry about that fellas I've updated the poll, now you can be negative in all three boxes! How quaint!

 

 

however you get no alerts or lists that tell you this.

 

 

But anyway, Leviski that's the sort of character progression a most pro-CPers are advocating. We don't want in your face "You just levelled up!"-type nonsense. Just a subtle, behind the scenes skill boost. The main reason for doing so is purely to increase the value on a character's life, without any game-breaking lack of immersion. Personally I feel a subtle CP system is more realistic than what we have now.

[thedeathstroke 10]

Sorry about that fellas I've updated the poll, now you can be negative in all three boxes! How quaint!

 

 

 

 

But anyway, Leviski that's the sort of character progression a most pro-CPers are advocating. We don't want in your face "You just levelled up!"-type nonsense. Just a subtle, behind the scenes skill boost. The main reason for doing so is purely to increase the value on a character's life, without any game-breaking lack of immersion. Personally I feel a subtle CP system is more realistic than what we have now.

 

 

 

I like the idea of character progression and classification. Say if you become a good medic or something, people might ask for a meet up or something and it might create a bond or you could sell your services for certain items (Thats just example but it would be cool in a lot of other ways)

Edited November 16, 2013 by DeathStroke

[landfish 62]

I actually think a GTA online kind of approach to character progression is the way to go. It's really subtle and nothing too drastic, the more you run, the more stamina your body builds up, the more you shoot your reload speed could speed up by 1 seconds at max and recoil could decrease a bit, same thing with swimming. The thing is, those attributes takes a really long time to improve, when you level up those attributes(no huds should indicate this) you won't even notice it.  But the difference is, when you die in a server, it resets back to zero. The wiping out of character progression should be the main threat in the SA, It'll make people think twice before participating in stupid actions.

Edited November 16, 2013 by landfish

[EndEffeKt 87]

I actually think a GTA online kind of approach to character progression is the way to go. It's really subtle and nothing too drastic, the more you run, the more stamina your body builds up, the more you shoot your reload speed could speed up by 1 seconds at max and recoil could decrease a bit, same thing with swimming. The thing is, those attributes takes a really long time to improve, when you level up those attributes(no huds should indicate this) you won't even notice it.  But the difference is, when you die in a server, it resets back to zero. The wiping out of character progression should be the main threat in the SA, It'll make people think twice before participating in stupid actions.

Exactly, never thought I could say something like this, but we really can learn from GTA :D

One of the main problems in todays DayZ is, that a players life has no value. Thats why infection is pointless from a pure-professional point of view. Thats why banditry that goes beyond plain murder fails most of the time. The character itself has no value at all. Hes just a dummy. I think more players would play their role in, for example, a robbery and wouldnt act stupid upon loosing their backpack, if they could keep their character for that.

 

It needs to be subtile, but noticible at the same time. I personally think it should be a partially randomized system to avoid exploitation to a certain degree. Dont know if there should be more prominent "bonus"-skills that are rare to unlock, but will give you some unique boni like "less recoil for pistols only" or "Your bolts never break upon impact" or "your immunesystem protects you from getting infected through dirty water". Nothing imbalanced, but so noticable and unique that you want to keep this character longer.

[WBK 176]

Ok somehow I deleted the poll... awfully sorry. I'll put it back up in 18-36 hours.

[Shadow Man 142]

I've thought about this a lot and my general opinion is that it doesn't suit Dayz. On the other hand there is a problem with death not being that much of a loss and some sort of character progression would help with this. The trouble is that it would have to be subtle enough so as not to ruin the game. Things like skill trees are the total opposite of what Dayz is all about.

 

The only thing I hope is that (eventually) the amount of items available in game will be so vast that that in itself will act as character progression. Also there needs to be a lot more to do than just go looking for pvp. If you look at Minecraft, the time you spend collecting all that crap, to be able to craft a new tool that enables you to collect a previously unavailable resource. Falling off a ledge into lava and losing your shiny new diamond sword is heart breaking.

 

In Dayz you are your gear, and there's no getting away from that. Without giving players buffs and shit there's no way to make the actual player valuable. Unless of course you have to pay real money for each life ;)

[GodOfGrain 191]

On game design, "progression through equipment", and a system of micro-skills

[joe_mcentire 2073]

On game design, "progression through equipment", and a system of micro-skills

actually my reference when skill and CP discussions arise from time to time, although it is a bit outdated by now ;).

 

Here's also some input from reddit and /r/DayzBulletin

http://www.reddit.com/r/DayZBulletin/comments/1nt82m/player_skill_vs_avatar_skill/

Edited November 17, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[GodOfGrain 191]

actually my reference when skill and CP discussions arise from time to time, although it is a bit outdated by now ;).

 

Have just updated it :)

 

Go check it out guys, have spent way too much time on that, so it's at least a nice read I guess

[Link]

Edited November 17, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[bfisher 561]

I'd like to see progression in the character's appearance.  Like if you don't shave, he grows a beard over time.  Or he/she gets fatter or skinnier depending on how often and what he/she eats.

 

I'd think some scripted actions like swapping weapons, bandaging wounds or fixing vehicles could become quicker the more you do them.  You character could also develop greater strength, running speed and stamina over time.  These are things that aren't reflected by the RL players skill.

 

But certainly no weapon power-ups for completing 20 head shots.  That would be stupid.

[puppetworx 474]

'Progress' in the game used to be measured predominantly by what gear you had. Since gear is now abundant (due to scripters and, nowadays, heavily modded servers) gear matters a hell of a lot less, getting 'fully geared' is very, very easy. 'Gear progression' has been replaced with deathmatch and sandbox gameplay, because 'gear progression' is just so easy. Progress today seems to be measured more by how many people you kill, than by anything else.

 

In the standalone gear progression will be back and even bigger than before. Loot tables will come from the hive and everything will be rarer, you might have to find parts to repair a gun - nevermind a vehicle, maps will have to be crafted, when looting zombies may actually be a threat! In my opinion that is the way that DayZ should be, it's what it was to begin with - what made it great. The standalone WILL piss a lot of people off, those who now play like it's a deathmatch or sandbox will undoubtedly loathe it.

 

The beauty of 'gear progression' though is that it acts like character progression; the gear that you have determines your potential power in the world. When you're in a world of abundance death means nothing because you have the exact same potential power when you run back to Balota as you had before, if loot is rare and you need to piece it together - you don't have the same power not even close, so death means a lot.

 

When helicopters were one per server it felt like you were a God when you were in the air. Now when you fly a chopper and there are 3 others still parked at Balota... it feels like Grand Theft Auto, who cares if you crash it? If you run out of helis just change servers or wait for it to restart in an hour. Repairing, then fueling a helicopter used to involve huge amounts of gear, skill, luck and persistence, keeping it took even more. Staying alive when you are the only one on the server to hold a certain piece of gear feels great, it's like having the flag or carrying the bomb, what makes it special is that not everyone is upto doing it.

 

True character progression of some sort might be good, but first lets get 'gear progression' in the game again. I can't wait.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Yea, but for gear to be relevant motivator you have to prevent that you get it back 30 mins later.

That's what happens in every organized group in about 80%.

 

Haven't believed so far in item degredation (after shot by player), because it is either

not sufficient enough (e.g. just a couple of gear parts destroyed or demaged) or, the opposite,

it becomes unrealistic if all the gear is in the red from a couple of bullets.

 

But there is a good solution made by Xianyu in this thread:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/151802-sazombies-attracted-to-dead-bodies/

 

Yea, if Zombies are attaracted to dead bodies and start eating / ripping the boddy apart,

then there is a realistic reason why the gear is destroyed.

 

That is very good actually, adds another layer of difficulty to profit from PvP.

[mercules 1290]

True character progression of some sort might be good, but first lets get 'gear progression' in the game again. I can't wait.

 

Part of the issue with 'gear progression' is that it is choked to certain points of the map. This is good, and bad. The really bad part of it is that it is possible for an organized group to prevent anyone else from access the gear and thus ever "leveling" up. On a private hive a clan of players could literally camp the airfield with multiple players and kill any solo players or poorly geared groups. 

The hive system avoids some of this but at the same time eliminates 'gear progression' entirely. After all you can raid a barracks with a hatchet on an empty server. You can run from the coast to the NWAF with a can of beans, two cans of soda, and a hatchet. Backpack would be nice, but getting a decent AR not to mention something like MK 48 Mod0 will help you go far. You might end up with a backpack, two decent guns with ammo, morphine, painkillers, and food and drink just from hitting a barracks and the tower at the airfield. 

So now there are a couple other spots you can get "decent" gear but they are still choked down. Cherno, Electro, Balota, the two airfields, and a couple minor spawns. The front steps of the security buildings don't even spawn non-'barn' weapons any longer. So a person's options for solid weapons has become Kill-Zone A, B, C, D, or E. Which makes people on the hive system hop on low pop servers and hit those areas then hop to high pop servers to use those weapons on others. This system doesn't work. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Mercules

[puppetworx 474]

Yea, but for gear to be relevant motivator you have to prevent that you get it back 30 mins later.

 

Haven't believed so far in item degredation (after shot by player), because it is either; not sufficient enough (e.g. just a couple of gear parts destroyed or demaged) or, the opposite, it becomes unrealistic if all the gear is in the red from a couple of bullets.

 

I'm not so attached to the realism in that regard, afterall gear is already unreal as it is; I can fit two car tires and two 20L Jerry cans in my backpack and if I leave anything in my tent or car for longer than a week it vaporises. These fictions serve a purpose for gameplay mechanics in the same way that item degredation will so I'm not opposed to item degredation.

The hive system avoids some of this but at the same time eliminates 'gear progression' entirely. After all you can raid a barracks with a hatchet on an empty server.

...

So a person's options for solid weapons has become Kill-Zone A, B, C, D, or E. Which makes people on the hive system hop on low pop servers and hit those areas then hop to high pop servers to use those weapons on others. This system doesn't work.

The biggest problem here is the server hopping, that can be dealt with and there's already been some talk about doing so. The other issue, which is related, is playing on empty servers: you can't place minimum player limits on servers as this makes tents and vehicles inaccessible. One possible solution would be to make loot very scarce and zombie numbers higher on servers with less than say 20 people - that may or may not be workable though as I believe all loot and zombies will spawn on server start in the SA. I agree that in the interest of people actually playing the game rather than finding loopholes some kind of limitation should be placed on looting from empty servers.

[GodOfGrain 191]

 

I'm not so attached to the realism in that regard, afterall gear is already unreal as it is; I can fit two car tires and two 20L Jerry cans in my backpack and if I leave anything in my tent or car for longer than a week it vaporises. These fictions serve a purpose for gameplay mechanics in the same way that item degredation will so I'm not opposed to item degredation.

 

That's true, but there is an important psychological difference between item degredation through bullets and the other examples you have mentioned.

 

Regarding tires, player thinks: " Hmm wheel fits in the right pocket of my jacket. Shouldn't be that way, but OK. "

Regarding tent, player thinks: " Ok, that makes sense. Otherwise there would be tents everywhere . "

Regarding car, player thinks: " ******* **** cars *** DayZ  **** ****. Gimme a ******* key to that thing. "

 

But regarding item degredation its different. DayZ combat is a very emotional thing.

You survived a firefight, want to get your well-earned loot, and then, everything is in the deep red. From one shot to the head.

What do you think? "What an unrealistic bullshit"

Edited November 19, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[EndEffeKt 87]

Apart from some kind of character progression I would also like to see more valuable non-military items. Rare stuff that makes it worth your while to search villages and barns. At the moment there are only a few. Like Ghillies and tents. Normally you never have to visit green spots again after you got some matches. But I am very optimistic that the new loot system will solve that issues.

[charley-taylor@hotmail.co.uk 39]

Character progression is already in game,

What gear you have,

The days you have survived,

Zombie kill count

Bandit/Survivor Kill count

I cant be the only person to look at that as player progression,

Everything just gets reset if you die.

Its the best kind of player progression in any genre of game, its no levels or perks or anything just your character and what they have achieved

I once had a 32 day character which i played every day and when i died it felt like all that effort and time i had put in to geting what i had, just went and i started again with a new character as you would.

Anyhow i love dayz the mod and i know i will love the standalone, Rocket and Bohemia have created the gaming history in my eyes, the amount of similar games i have seen crop up since dayz went viral is ridiculous.

Fuckin bafflin on cuz im high, but yeah player progression is already in this masterpiece in my opinion.