First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

=)

 

can't believe this thread is still going, I think I left it at page 24 or something.

 

where we at?

[mercules 1290]

These polls say 60%. The problem is - if you belive them - more than the half of all players are playing against their "stated" preference. Know what I think? 99% of the player play on 3rd person server because they like 3rd person enabled server better. But some of the forum folks believe they would be more "hardcore" if they would play on 1st person server (which they like less). But for the sake of being *superduperhardcore* they vote agains their preference. It's a often seen story that some kids try to play the hard dude, they imagine they would like to be, if they were Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the parallel universe.

 

Ah, I see... so your "logical" conclusion is that people actually like TPV better but then feel embarrassed and so lie about their preference. Have you ever heard of a "Circumstantial Ad Hominem" it is where someone states that other people's argument is invalid because they are only stating that because it is in their own interest to say so. You are approaching this form of fallacious argument by trying to say people actually prefer to play on TPV servers but state they don't because of self interest in appearing hardcore. Your arguments have been laughable. 

"Well, people play on TPV so they must like it."  AKA "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque" fallacy. 

 

 

This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

 

1. Person A makes claim X.

 

2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.

 

3. Therefore X is false.

 

The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.

Note that bold part. We can state we would prefer to play FPV and not play FPV and still retain that preference. Why we don't play on those servers has no bearing on what we want to play. In fact if I were to come out and say, "I would prefer to play in FPV but TPV is just so much easier." I would still have every right to lobby for the SA to be only FPV. How many people know beyond a doubt that they should make something healthy and cheaper for dinner but still decided to just order a pizza because it is easier if not better? Thousands of them. In fact I think delivery pizza shops only remain in business because in general the populous is lazy. ;)

So what I actually choose to do when it comes to play does not invalidate any arguments about how I think FPV would improve the game and claiming otherwise is just arguing poorly.

 

[entspeak 374]

I am also someone who believes 3rd should be removed.  I play in 3rd but only because there are no servers near me that are 1st person only.

 

Granted, Dslyecxi uses head tracking software, but it's totally possible to land heli's in first person.  You should see the video where he flies a Little Bird into a forest, among the trees, at low altitude and back out again - it's amazing.  I'm not as good at it, but certainly better the more I practiced.  I always fly and drive in first... it's actually easier that way.

 

Many FPS games are first person, and many of us have spent hours playing in 1st person.  Turning off the headbob solves the problem of bopping up and down.

 

The game is intense and frightening in first person and PvP is so much more fun because you can't look over walls.  Since it's possible to see your character in the inventory screen in SA, I hope they get rid of third person.

[Shadow Man 142]

=)

 

can't believe this thread is still going, I think I left it at page 24 or something.

 

where we at?

 

Yeah I keep coming back to see how its going. Pretty much the same stuff as 50 pages ago, just different people.

[dsi24 227]

Wut?

3dp doesn't stop you using ironsights or scopes.

 

Shack-Tac don't need you to whiteknight for them.

 

Selective perception is running rampant around here.

 

EDIT:

spelling

Dude you said third person only, not third person with first person. 

[rossums 2190]

couldn't agree less.

 

If I want a full on hardcore military simulation experience I go play arma on Hardcore.

 

But when I want to blow off steam and just immerse myself in the wanton slaughter of players I play dayz,

and third person plays a massive role in helping me both kill other players and avoid being killed by them.

 

Let's not forget this wonderful feature is available to all so everyone wins.

Exactly, you want easy.

DayZ isn't meant to be an easy game that you kick back and relax with, it's meant to be a difficult, authentic zombie survival sim - then entire idea behind the game is that it wasn't easy or forgiving.

It plays such a massive role in helping you kill players and avoid being killed by them because it's totally broken and you are using that to your advantage - this is the main reason that people hate it, you are getting an advantage not because you are even remotely a good player but because you are abusing a broken mechanic that there is no possible way to defend against, it takes the skill completely out of any encounter.

[Heiduk 265]

Know what I think? 99% of the player play on 3rd person server because they like 3rd person enabled server better.

 

I hate third person (in DayZ), but like 3rd person enabled servers better. Why? Because it is a multiplayer game and I want to play with other people. Is that really so hard to understand? Don't tell me someone needs to make yet another post about tipping points, lowest common denominators, etc. etc.

 

I'm probably being nostalgic, but I swear 3rd person advocates were able to mount a better defense back in the good old days.

[dsi24 227]

Because having a game mechanics which lets the player do things, which are not realistic, is not always an exploit.

 

Using your spiderman senses also is not an exploit if you play a spiderman game.

 

It even isn't an unfair game mechanics, since everyone could make use of it.

 

Now I see, there are some camper excessively making use of it. If they don't have the 3rd person view, they'd just sit in a pine tree. And then? Exploit? I think we should face it: Annoying camper are annoying because they camp, not because of the 3rd person.

Holy shit really? The way you people go back and dig up your old shit and fling it like it is something new never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is at least the third time I've posted this in this thread alone: The reason why third person is bad is because it has an asymmetry of information. Think about this: You can hide behind a wall and watch an entire field and tree/bush line in third person, if someone moves up towards your wall on this tree line in third person you have a chance of spotting them, they have zero chance of spotting you or even knowing you exist until you decide to pop out and shoot them. Or maybe they never know someone was even there because you decide to go somewhere else instead of dealing with them. Third person's asymmetry of information is exactly why its so bad, and here you are trying to claim that it isn't unfair because everyone has it. Everyone has it but not everyone can use it, that is why it is unfair. 

 

Notice that "everyone has it but not everyone can use it" is precisely the reason why exploits are bad. Exploits like exiting the map, glitching your camera through walls, or seeing through walls with a magical floating invisible camera. All of these can be done by everyone, but only people in certain situations can actually exploit it. The first person outside the map can stop everyone else because he can always see and shoot them, the first person to glitch their FoV through a wall can see when someone else is coming to do the same and act first, the first person to exploit third person to see what they cannot see will always have the first move. In DayZ of course, that first move is generally "shoot them while they don't even suspect I exist".

 

Imagine a situation where two people are hiding on corners of the same building, exploiting third person to watch the same street in each other's direction, waiting to see if its safe. Neither of them will know the other even exists until one person decides to move, that person will die. Do you seriously think that is a good gameplay situation? You cannot ever move because there might be someone there? You cannot ever be the first to move because if you move you will die?

[rossums 2190]

Holy shit really? The way you people go back and dig up your old shit and fling it like it is something new never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is at least the third time I've posted this in this thread alone: The reason why third person is bad is because it has an asymmetry of information. Think about this: You can hide behind a wall and watch an entire field and tree/bush line in third person, if someone moves up towards your wall on this tree line in third person you have a chance of spotting them, they have zero chance of spotting you or even knowing you exist until you decide to pop out and shoot them. Or maybe they never know someone was even there because you decide to go somewhere else instead of dealing with them. Third person's asymmetry of information is exactly why its so bad, and here you are trying to claim that it isn't unfair because everyone has it. Everyone has it but not everyone can use it, that is why it is unfair. 

 

Notice that "everyone has it but not everyone can use it" is precisely the reason why exploits are bad. Exploits like exiting the map, glitching your camera through walls, or seeing through walls with a magical floating invisible camera. All of these can be done by everyone, but only people in certain situations can actually exploit it. The first person outside the map can stop everyone else because he can always see and shoot them, the first person to glitch their FoV through a wall can see when someone else is coming to do the same and act first, the first person to exploit third person to see what they cannot see will always have the first move. In DayZ of course, that first move is generally "shoot them while they don't even suspect I exist".

 

Imagine a situation where two people are hiding on corners of the same building, exploiting third person to watch the same street in each other's direction, waiting to see if its safe. Neither of them will know the other even exists until one person decides to move, that person will die. Do you seriously think that is a good gameplay situation? You cannot ever move because there might be someone there? You cannot ever be the first to move because if you move you will die?

Dude, there is no point arguing - I know I'll probably catch flak for saying it but, he's so unbelievably fucking stupid and stubborn you won't get through to him.

He's already decided he's right and everything is 'just an opinion' even if it's factually wrong.

He wants an easy game and seems to think that it's FPV vs TPV with no compromise, a fundamentally flawed outlook and one that serves no place in a thread that's meant to discuss and dissect what is currently wrong with the views - anyone that can look at 3rd person view and say there is nothing wrong with it deserves to have their opinion completely disregarded.

Nobody is saying either view is perfect but TPV seriously needs fixed as it ruins the largely important tactical aspect of the game and FPV view needs fixed to something at least in line with ARMA3. 

[tommes 331]

Dude, there is no point arguing - I know I'll probably catch flak for saying it but, he's so unbelievably fucking stupid and stubborn you won't get through to him.

Exactly my point. Better call him names. Doesn't solve anything but feels good.

[tommes 331]

Yeah I keep coming back to see how its going. Pretty much the same stuff as 50 pages ago, just different people.

No. Same people. Still better chance to find intelligent life on Mars than on TPV lovers side.

[Trizzo 632]

/\ Its pretty much ken bean talking to himself thats keeping this thread going, it's an amazing performace.

 

1) Using your spiderman senses also is not an exploit if you play a spiderman game. It even isn't an unfair game mechanics, since everyone could make use of it.

 

2) Now I see, there are some camper excessively making use of it. If they don't have the 3rd person view, they'd just sit in a pine tree. And then? Exploit?

 

Jesus christ you just don't get it.

 

1) Everyone has it but not everyone can use it in the same way at the exact same time. Defenders/campers usally have the major advantage.

 

2) If i'm sitting im sitting in the middle of pine tree or bush in FPV there is a significant problem. I CANT SEE OUT OF THE FUCKING THING. I need to creep to the edge of my cover to see past the obstruction. The same goes for:

 

*Behind low walls

*On top of buidlings

*Hiding in long grass

 

Third person lets you be concealed and covered without having to expose yourself. This is why it is fundementally unbalanced. In FPV you usally have to compromise between cover or concealment and add to this trying to pick a spot for good observation...it is far more difficult in FPV.

 

For you it is a simple matter of diving into the grass and pressing third person and watching the action. When I dive into the grass I can't see anything.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Trizzo

[Ken Bean 175]

/\ Its pretty much ken bean talking to himself thats keeping this thread going, it's an amazing performace.

 

 

Jesus christ you just don't get it.

 

1) Everyone has it but not everyone can use it in the same way at the exact same time. Defenders/campers usally have the major advantage.

 

2) If i'm sitting im sitting in the middle of pine tree or bush in FPV there is a significant problem. I CANT SEE OUT OF THE FUCKING THING. I need to creep to the edge of my cover to see past the obstruction. The same goes for:

 

*Behind low walls

*On top of buidlings

*Hiding in long grass

 

Third person lets you be concealed and covered without having to expose yourself. This is why it is fundementally unbalanced. In FPV you usally have to compromise between cover or concealment and add to this trying to pick a spot for good observation...it is far more difficult in FPV.

 

For you it is a simple matter of diving into the grass and pressing third person and watching the action. When I dive into the grass I can't see anything.

Quit whining, play on 1st person server.

[RooBurger 285]

Quit whining, play on 1st person server.

 

You mean like one of these?

 

[Trizzo 632]

Quit whining, play on 1st person server.

 

"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

Edited September 13, 2013 by Trizzo

[Ken Bean 175]

You mean like one of these?

Yep, one of these. I played on 2 of them myself lately.

Most of the time I was a bit alone. And yes, reading this forums, being told that you 1st person lover are in the majority, is a bit weird

Cant help but wonder why you guys are hanging around 3rd person server and complaining about it the same time. Maybe if you get 1 or 2 server full, I'd say there are too few. But as it looks now, even thouh there are only half a dozen 1st person server, there are still too many.

Oh and btw, I always have bad ping too, I take it as additional challenge. Only an idiot would run around on a server with 60 player throuh an pvp area and expects not to get sniped.

Edit

Just took a closer look to your screenshot (Im on my phone currently) and nope, not one of these. How about learning to properly sort the server list using those awesome filter?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RooBurger 285]

Oh and btw, I always have bad ping too, I take it as additional challenge. Only an idiot would run around on a server with 60 player throuh an pvp area and expects not to get sniped.

I want to get sniped. I want to get shot at and return fire, to interact with people in other ways too. DayZ is not a good game when played alone.

 

Edit

Just took a closer look to your screenshot (Im on my phone currently) and nope, not one of these. How about learning to properly sort the server list using those awesome filter?

These are literally the best 1stP servers I have access to. Edited September 13, 2013 by RooBurger

[RooBurger 285]

Why am I even trying to reason with this kid?

[Ken Bean 175]

I want to get sniped. I want to get shot at and return fire, to interact with people in other ways too. DayZ is not a good game when played alone. These are literally the best 1stP servers I have access to.

There are no others bacause all of you hang around 3rd person server.

[Ken Bean 175]

Why am I even trying to reason with this kid?

You call this reasoning? Do you even read what you write? I'd call it trash talk.

But trust me, all these awesome fancy 1st person server are empty. Becaus you guys somehow allnthe time are hanging around 3rd person server. Its litteraly weird.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RooBurger 285]

[Jex 1104]

Never played Raven Shield but sound like it has exactly the kind of system i would like to have in DayZ. Then i only need one major thing for FPV and im ready to go. You should be able to see through bushes, branches and leaves when you are inside a bush/tree. This would make it limitless enough for me to join FPV only server. There is lot of minor tweaks i would do but these two are the most important.

 

OK just as I thought you're being a dick about things now. Well done for showing the entire forum here that you're either stupid or a complete troll. For a start, you can see through bushes though you seem to want to be able to see through them more? You have no argument, you keep asking people the same questions showing that after repeated attempts to explain things to you, you STILL don't get it.

 

I now hope that for people like you 3rd person is completely ruined and you end up not playing the game. I'd prefer if your type went off to play something else..

[dgeesio 1034]

nice to see this is still going with no chance of resolve just same people arguing about same stuff for how long now two three weeks .

 

my view is better than yours table tennis. lock thread. waits for another 100 pgs of 1st person eliteism :lol:

[Jex 1104]

=)

 

can't believe this thread is still going, I think I left it at page 24 or something.

 

where we at?

 

The issue comes from having to repeat the answers over and over again to a few people here that are unable to understand them, or deliberately choose not to.

[Jex 1104]

I am also someone who believes 3rd should be removed.  I play in 3rd but only because there are no servers near me that are 1st person only.

 

Granted, Dslyecxi uses head tracking software, but it's totally possible to land heli's in first person.  You should see the video where he flies a Little Bird into a forest, among the trees, at low altitude and back out again - it's amazing.  I'm not as good at it, but certainly better the more I practiced.  I always fly and drive in first... it's actually easier that way.

 

Many FPS games are first person, and many of us have spent hours playing in 1st person.  Turning off the headbob solves the problem of bopping up and down.

 

The game is intense and frightening in first person and PvP is so much more fun because you can't look over walls.  Since it's possible to see your character in the inventory screen in SA, I hope they get rid of third person.

 

Maybe they should put mirrors in to the game - you know like, in a bedroom or something for the vanity of certain players here? ;)