First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[tommes 331]

tbh, im surprized thais thread wasnt locked after Rocket clearly mentioned TPV is in for SA..

 

that should have been the signal to nuke this tired thread.

It's still fun. The other side hasn't learned a bit and probably won't. They'll be opposing until the end of time. No matter what. And it doesn't really matter if there definitely will be TPV in SA, because the discussion is more principal.

[tommes 331]

FACT = TPV is exploitable, YOUR OPINION = FPV is better. Understand the difference?

You fail to understand that there's a connection between "exploitable" and "better/worse". If something is exploitable it can break the whole system. That's why people make rules about things. To stop exploiting.

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Same thing here. It is a personal preference if a player choose to play/like certain camera view, no matter which view is less broken or intended for the game. And to be clear, im not saying TPV should not be fixed (or removed), or FPV should not be fixed or whatever. It seems to me that more and more of you FPV lovers fail to understand that no matter how unrealistic or exploitable TPV is, it is not automatically and magically wrong way to play the game, yes from your point of view it is of course. You all just think of your selves, you really should think other people too. So self centered... well thats the way this world goes around now days.

We are thinking of DayZ as a whole. If just a few exploit something it has the capability to alter the whole thing. You guys fail to see that your preference has the potential to break it for everbody else. If you want it or not.

So what is more important? Fairplay for all or watching the ass of your avatar?

[aeinola 25]

It doesn't matter what you prefer, it's broken, it is literally THAT simple.

Well yeah, TPV is broken, but so is the FPV, thats a problem for me. And this is another thing what people dont understand when debating with me. They just see "aa, this guy prefers TPV *blank*...".

 

They way it is exploited IS wrong, Rocket himself has said that it wasn't intended to be used to view over obstacles from safety.

TPV is not perfect, far from it, but its a fun way to play, and for me its not wrong if everyone can do it and everyone knows how to do it. And please dont bring up the wallhack example, its just stupid.

 

It doesn't matter how much you cry and stomp your feet, it's not down to what view people prefer, it's down to one of the views offering a significant advantage over the other which negatively impacts a large part of the game and just downright ruins others.

I agree when things go south like it has gone with the mod. There should be players in FPV only servers for you guys. When Standalone comes, and there is TPV in the game, if it seems all the players want to play TPV you guys should make a stand and populate the FPV servers right from the start and stick to it. You guys say that most of DayZ players wants to play FPV only, IT SHOULD NOT BE HARD TO POPULATE FPV only servers!

 

The game was meant to be a hard, unforgiving game that at time required some quick and fast decisions - being able to peek over any obstacles from safety before moving takes a lot of that away, if you want to look you should have to stick your head out and put yourself in danger to earn the information regarding your surroundings.

I agree. The only problem is you cant peak over obstacle in FPV just sticking your head out. As i have explained many times, this is the problem in FPV and the reason i prefer TPV.

[aeinola 25]

You fail to understand that there's a connection between "exploitable" and "better/worse". If something is exploitable it can break the whole system. That's why people make rules about things. To stop exploiting.

Why is that so hard to understand?

I understand YOUR point of view to this matter, i understand why you think FPV is worse than TPV. I think its the other way around. It is not a FACT matter. If you make "rule" to remove TPV you are forcing people to choose YOUR way. I explained on the other post this already.

 

We are thinking of DayZ as a whole. If just a few exploit something it has the capability to alter the whole thing. You guys fail to see that your preference has the potential to break it for everbody else. If you want it or not.

So what is more important? Fairplay for all or watching the ass of your avatar?

I dont fail to see this. I agree. People who play FPV only in servers that has TPV enabled are in disadvantage. The solution is not to remove TPV from the game, the solution is FPV only servers. And its up to YOU (thousands of FPV lovers) to populate them. Simple as that, end of story.

[rossums 2190]

Well yeah, TPV is broken, but so is the FPV, thats a problem for me. And this is another thing what people dont understand when debating with me. They just see "aa, this guy prefers TPV *blank*...".

 

TPV is not perfect, far from it, but its a fun way to play, and for me its not wrong if everyone can do it and everyone knows how to do it. And please dont bring up the wallhack example, its just stupid.

 

I agree when things go south like it has gone with the mod. There should be players in FPV only servers for you guys. When Standalone comes, and there is TPV in the game, if it seems all the players want to play TPV you guys should make a stand and populate the FPV servers right from the start and stick to it. You guys say that most of DayZ players wants to play FPV only, IT SHOULD NOT BE HARD TO POPULATE FPV only servers!

 

I agree. The only problem is you cant peak over obstacle in FPV just sticking your head out. As i have explained many times, this is the problem in FPV and the reason i prefer TPV.

So your problem with FPV is that you can't peak over obstacles?

DayZ doesn't seem like the game for you, it's meant to be hard, there is meant to be a risk vs reward situation for everything you do - you are meant to be at risk when you want to scout an area - the fact you seem to just brush over peaking and 'wallhacks' is just immature and the entire problem with this thread, you complain that it's FPV people whining and dismissing everything when you are doing the exact same thing.

I use both views, they are both useful and using TPV is almost a necessity if you play on the more popular servers.

The reason there are so many popular TPV servers is that server hosts want to get the most players they possibly can, allowing both FPV and TPV is the only way to do this, the only downside is that players are forced to use TPV to remain competitive.

The fact you don't see exploiting the view as 'wrong' because everyone can do it is just pathetic, that's like 'Oh there is nothing wrong with cheats, everyone can just download them too!' - just because it's their and exploitable doesn't mean it should be and certainyl doesn't mean it's a good thing.

It just seems that you want the game to be easier and you are using TPV as a crutch for your inability to play properly.

Both views are broken, the problem with TPV is it ruins a large chunk of the gameplay, a very important part too.

YOU are the only one here that seems to be making this a black vs white, TPV vs FPV argument, it's not as simple as that.

I prefer TPV for general messing around but that doesn't make up for the fact it's fundamentally broken in a way that negatively impacts the game.

[tommes 331]

Well yeah, TPV is broken, but so is the FPV, thats a problem for me.

FPV ain't broken. It's just not perfect. I can deal with lack of perfection as in any other game.

What we can agree upon is that things should be improved. I'm all for that.

TPV itself is not broken either. It does TPV perfectly. It's the nature of TPV that breaks (change to something far less good) a major part of the game.

[tommes 331]

I understand YOUR point of view to this matter, i understand why you think FPV is worse than TPV. I think its the other way around. It is not a FACT matter. If you make "rule" to remove TPV you are forcing people to choose YOUR way. I explained on the other post this already.

So? I don't have a problem using force on others. I promote forcing people to not play like shit because obviously they can't be entrusted with choosing for themselves.

 

I dont fail to see this. I agree. People who play FPV only in servers that has TPV enabled are in disadvantage. The solution is not to remove TPV from the game, the solution is FPV only servers. And its up to YOU (thousands of FPV lovers) to populate them. Simple as that, end of story.

Would be a nice and easy solution...if there wouldn't be that gravity of lame problem we explained a lot. It seems like people need some push to adjust to FPV only. As polls showed the majority would deal with it if there's no choice.

[Jex 1104]

Well that's just sad.

 

No doubt there are plenty of petty folks who would drop DayZ like a hot tattie if they didn't get their way. But there's a LOT more to it than just the FPV/3dp.

The way DayZ is turning out is such a break from the norm ATM that I just don't see how picking one perspective over another should be a deal-breaker for anyone seriously interested in the basic concept.

 

EDIT:

Maybe there's just some fundamental difference in the way we're all looking at the game and it's development.

It's pretty much impossible to come at this without preconception of some sort

 

Anyway. I'm not finding this subject so interesting now.

I think I'll bow out while the seas are still reasonably calm.

 

One of the glaring issues with TPV is the obvious exploit of seeing other players whilst completely hidden. Since the aim is to survive, the longer you do this and the more gear you collect makes you more protective about your gear. People do get attached to their gear even though they shouldn't. Spending hours foraging only to have it taken away by a guy with a Winchester is one of the reasons your adrenaline gets pumping. After doing all that you then get killed because someone used 3rd person to look over a rock at you?

 

So if you choose to be the player that sits and waits, exploiting 3rd person for those other players that make the effort to actually play the game and collect gear so they can survive and with no clear way on how to make 3rd person available AND unexploitable there will be some people who just don't want to waste their time.

 

The average life expectancy is just over an hour right now. I don't know many games where you die so much and achieving so little. Some people want to achieve more and don't want their day ruined by a 3rd person cheater.

 

So it looks as though Rocket is trying to find a way to make 3rd person not exploitable which I hope he can achieve and if he can't I hope he removes it.

[aeinola 25]

So your problem with FPV is that you can't peak over obstacles?

My problem with FPV is that its so limited. Im so in love with the free look system in Arma that i cant play other similar games without it. It seems so stupid that if you are running north you have to turn your whole body to see whats up in the west. Its kind of same thing with FPV when hiding. If you cant just peak a little exposing only your forehead and eyes it seems so stupid and broken to me. I HABE TO rise up to my knee and expose whole upper body to see over obstacles. Yes its hard, and yes its less unrealistic than TPV. I just cant live with that. I would love to play FPV only but its too broken for me now.

[Brew78 27]

Ok, random thought..

 

A big argument in favor of 3rd person is that it fills in the gaps that aren't possible to emulate in FPV.  Call it peripheral vision, sensation of something hitting the back of your body, small barely audible bits of noise not generated in game (like breathing for example) that you might pick up on and "sense" that someone was near, maybe even call it personal space or a 6th sense.

 

So.. what if in TPV, vision was somehow limited?  Like, a fog or focus blur or some other distortion effect that leaves an area of some radius perfectly visible around the player, with the video getting harder to see the further away it is?  Things like using TPV to look around corners would be substantially less useful.  And it could be driven by the client, offloading the work from the server. 

 

What pops into mind when I think about an analogy is the "darklight vision" they had in Planetside that you could use to detect cloaked players.  It effectively cut off your normal vision anywhere other than your immediate surroundings, but any cloaked nearby units would glow brightly.

 

Sure, it'd be hackable since its on the client machine, but it'd be harder to do than run a simple script like in the Arma2 engine, and might be detectable with whatever hack prevention is in place.

 

Anyway, just a thought.

[Jex 1104]

Are my points lies?

1. 1st person view is unrealistically limited and if they would fix it i would prefer FPV over TPV.

 

Compared to what exactly? It's like every other FPS out there. My god, where have you been these last couple of decades? Do you know you can change the FOV? Did you know you can run 3 monitors if you wished.

 

So point  statement 1 is, Arma has the same view all FPS have which is unrealistic compared to reality.

 

How does it need to be fixed?

[Jex 1104]

Because. This. Is. The. Zombie. Apocalypse.

l.m.a.o.

[tommes 331]

Most possible solutions to fix TPV are relatively complicated to program. The simplest solution without disabling it completely would be to put the camera much closer to your body. Rocket decided to go that way. The blurr might be a working solution either. One would have to see it.

[aeinola 25]

Compared to what exactly? It's like every other FPS out there. My god, where have you been these last couple of decades? Do you know you can change the FOV? Did you know you can run 3 monitors if you wished.

 

So point  statement 1 is, Arma has the same view all FPS have which is unrealistic compared to reality.

 

How does it need to be fixed?

DayZ is not like any other FPS. In DayZ you want to remain hidden from Z'ds and from other players. You want to sneak and so on. Knowing your surroundings is really important in this game and TPV gives you that. I dont like the exploits in the game, and i would like to play FPV only. I just dont get enough information when its so limited. And FOV is not an issue, ability to look around without expose yourself too much is the issue here. Traditional first person shooters dont need same awareness, they are more straight forward with more action. I not playing DayZ like a first person shooter. I try to survive, try not to die. To accomplish with that goal i need to remain hidden and be aware of my surroundings.

[Jex 1104]

My problem with FPV is that its so limited. Im so in love with the free look system in Arma that i cant play other similar games without it. It seems so stupid that if you are running north you have to turn your whole body to see whats up in the west. Its kind of same thing with FPV when hiding. If you cant just peak a little exposing only your forehead and eyes it seems so stupid and broken to me. I HABE TO rise up to my knee and expose whole upper body to see over obstacles. Yes its hard, and yes its less unrealistic than TPV. I just cant live with that. I would love to play FPV only but its too broken for me now.

 

Well if they use the Arma 3 system then you have 9 or 10 different stances and you can do all the peeking you need. So now that they have a system in place for that that might go into the SA ( can anyone confirm this) then we're good, aren't we?

[aeinola 25]

Well if they use the Arma 3 system then you have 9 or 10 different stances and you can do all the peeking you need. So now that they have a system in place for that that might go into the SA ( can anyone confirm this) then we're good, aren't we?

Whit this it would go to right direction but would still be a little limited and clumsy. Why not keep the three basic stances and add "free peak" system similar to free look? I would love it and i think so would a lot of people.

[mercules 1290]

Same thing here. It is a personal preference if a player choose to play/like certain camera view, no matter which view is less broken or intended for the game. And to be clear, im not saying TPV should not be fixed (or removed), or FPV should not be fixed or whatever. It seems to me that more and more of you FPV lovers fail to understand that no matter how unrealistic or exploitable TPV is, it is not automatically and magically wrong way to play the game, yes from your point of view it is of course. You all just think of your selves, you really should think other people too. So self centered... well thats the way this world goes around now days.

 

Wait a second. You understand that the way TPV is being used is not how it was intended for the game and might be broken, but that is okay because it is a personal preference?  :D 

I could do a glorious slippery slope about hacks not being what the developers are intending and breaking the rules but that is okay because they are a personal preference... Hmmm... I kinda just did but I admitted it was not a valid argument.

Here is the thing. when you play the game in a way not intended by the developer of the game you are using an exploit, it is broken, and is no longer a "preference" and now in the realm of being an ass to others. Yes, anyone can do it and probably should if they want to have a fair chance but it does change the nature of the game and possible ruin an experience for everyone. 

It has been pointed out in this thread multiple times how TPV allows people to camp an area and shoot others safely and easily. It has been pointed out how much easier it is to avoid zombie agro in TPV and how that lowers the difficulty of the game by at least a tiny amount.

Yes people prefer EASIER, people preferred starting with a pistol but that went away despite that preference because it was not good for the game. Hiding in safety with full view of what is going on is not good for the game, that exploit needs to go away even if TPV sticks around.

[Jex 1104]

DayZ is not like any other FPS. In DayZ you want to remain hidden from Z'ds and from other players. You want to sneak and so on. Knowing your surroundings is really important in this game and TPV gives you that. I dont like the exploits in the game, and i would like to play FPV only. I just dont get enough information when its so limited. And FOV is not an issue, ability to look around without expose yourself too much is the issue here. Traditional first person shooters dont need same awareness, they are more straight forward with more action. I not playing DayZ like a first person shooter. I try to survive, try not to die. To accomplish with that goal i need to remain hidden and be aware of my surroundings.

 

OK so what you've just argued is that for the irritating component of Dayz and the least lethal are the things you need to look out for - the zombies is why you need 3rd person and yet it's is 3rd person that makes it more dangerous for you from other players on a huge scale. Zombies rarely cause anyone death, it's other players and you want to give them an advantage over killing you?

 

Very strange.

[tommes 331]

To accomplish with that goal i need to remain hidden and be aware of my surroundings.

You can achieve your goal FPV only too. Just need to get adjusted to it. You never took this time because pressing Enter is much easier.

[mercules 1290]

DayZ is not like any other FPS. In DayZ you want to remain hidden from Z'ds and from other players. You want to sneak and so on. Knowing your surroundings is really important in this game and TPV gives you that. I dont like the exploits in the game, and i would like to play FPV only. I just dont get enough information when its so limited. And FOV is not an issue, ability to look around without expose yourself too much is the issue here. Traditional first person shooters dont need same awareness, they are more straight forward with more action. I not playing DayZ like a first person shooter. I try to survive, try not to die. To accomplish with that goal i need to remain hidden and be aware of my surrounding

 

When you say FPS are you talking about team deathmatch with random spawn points or deathmatch FPS games or something with actual tactics? Playing BF3 on the large conquest maps with limited vehicle spawns means you often have to stay hidden. 

Back when I played Battlefield: Vietnam and played on the VC side of things there were times where my sniper rifle was iron sights and I had things like Bouncing Betties. I once held a point pretty much by myself against 4 or 5 assaulting at a time and helicopters because of stealth. I was able to deal with a few coming up and when things got overwhelming I faded into hiding, only picked off people looking the wrong way, and retook the point once they moved on. Stealth can be VERY important in FPS. 

Mechwarrior Online, keeping in cover until you have flanked is incredibly important. So important one of the most useful items in the game is a seismic sensor that lets you see close range movement on your radar even behind obstacles. 

If your target can't see you, they can't shoot you. One of the most important things in a FPS.

 

[Jex 1104]

Whit this it would go to right direction but would still be a little limited and clumsy. Why not keep the three basic stances and add "free peak" system similar to free look? I would love it and i think so would a lot of people.

 

Raven Shield had a great system. You held down shift and then the mouse movements would make you raise or lower or lean so you had absolute control over it and was very smooth - this is the system games should employ. Arma 3's system is much better but still a little clumsy (but remapping some keys can make this better for you). Point is is good enough for a game and you're starting to sound like one of those people that when a solution is given, you always say " Yes but if only..."

[aeinola 25]

Wait a second. You understand that the way TPV is being used is not how it was intended for the game and might be broken, but that is okay because it is a personal preference?  :D

Thats not what i said.

 

Here is the thing. when you play the game in a way not intended by the developer of the game you are using an exploit, it is broken, and is no longer a "preference" and now in the realm of being an ass to others. Yes, anyone can do it and probably should if they want to have a fair chance but it does change the nature of the game and possible ruin an experience for everyone. 

So if i prefer to use TPV and prefer to use its exploit its not my personal prefernce over FPV if its not the way developers intented? This sounds a bit weird.. should i learn more english? There must be some kind of misunderstanding.

 

It has been pointed out in this thread multiple times how TPV allows people to camp an area and shoot others safely and easily. It has been pointed out how much easier it is to avoid zombie agro in TPV and how that lowers the difficulty of the game by at least a tiny amount.

Yes people prefer EASIER, people preferred starting with a pistol but that went away despite that preference because it was not good for the game. Hiding in safety with full view of what is going on is not good for the game, that exploit needs to go away even if TPV sticks around.

I agree all this. But in my opinion TPV can not be fully fixed, and the FPV should be fixed or make it much better. If Dean Hall wants to keep TPV in the game then he should try to fix it as much as possible. If he wants to remove TPV he should do lot improvements on FPV. Either way i think he should improve FPV.

 

When you say FPS are you talking about team deathmatch with random spawn points or deathmatch FPS games or something with actual tactics? Playing BF3 on the large conquest maps with limited vehicle spawns means you often have to stay hidden.

FPS games in general.

 

Back when I played Battlefield: Vietnam and played on the VC side of things there were times where my sniper rifle was iron sights and I had things like Bouncing Betties. I once held a point pretty much by myself against 4 or 5 assaulting at a time and helicopters because of stealth. I was able to deal with a few coming up and when things got overwhelming I faded into hiding, only picked off people looking the wrong way, and retook the point once they moved on. Stealth can be VERY important in FPS. 

Mechwarrior Online, keeping in cover until you have flanked is incredibly important. So important one of the most useful items in the game is a seismic sensor that lets you see close range movement on your radar even behind obstacles.

Nice story bro. While staying hidden on these games might make you better player than average its not automatically the only right way to play it. Just like DayZ. People like and PREFER different kind of playstyle for different reasons. These are games, they are here to entertain us. Its up to us, players to decide how we are going to enjoy them. And there is difference in staying hidden (FPS in general) and actually hide from something most of the time (DayZ).

[aeinola 25]

Raven Shield had a great system. You held down shift and then the mouse movements would make you raise or lower or lean so you had absolute control over it and was very smooth - this is the system games should employ. Arma 3's system is much better but still a little clumsy (but remapping some keys can make this better for you). Point is is good enough for a game and you're starting to sound like one of those people that when a solution is given, you always say " Yes but if only..."

Never played Raven Shield but sound like it has exactly the kind of system i would like to have in DayZ. Then i only need one major thing for FPV and im ready to go. You should be able to see through bushes, branches and leaves when you are inside a bush/tree. This would make it limitless enough for me to join FPV only server. There is lot of minor tweaks i would do but these two are the most important.

[aeinola 25]

Just to make things clear:

 

Is the TPV problem for FPV players only when there is not enough servers/players for FPV only? And the situation at the moment is that you have no choice than join TPV enabled servers? Or is there some other agenda why you want to force everyone to play with FPV? What im saying is if the playerbase was divided equally for the two views you would be happy?

EDIT: And you want to make sure that what happened with the mod (only TPV enabled servers) wont happen with standalone, so you want TPV to be removed from standalone?

Edited September 12, 2013 by aeinola

[mercules 1290]

Just to make things clear:

 

Is the TPV problem for FPV players only when there is not enough servers/players for FPV only? And the situation at the moment is that you have no choice than join TPV enabled servers? Or is there some other agenda why you want to force everyone to play with FPV? What im saying is if the playerbase was divided equally for the two views you would be happy?

EDIT: And you want to make sure that what happened with the mod (only TPV enabled servers) wont happen with standalone, so you want TPV to be removed from standalone?

 

The issue is that as long as there is an easy route and and a harder route the majority of the people will pick easy. The fact that they will then complain when things get boring or too easy is just ironic icing on the cake. TPV is just easier to play in, not more realistic or making up for a lack of awareness in FPV, it lets you look around corners without exposing yourself and makes the game easier against zombies. It makes it harder against camping players, but I don't think that balances out in the right way. 

The player base being divided IS the issue. If I played alone it wouldn't be that much of an issue for me, but I have friends and they want the easier route and so to play with them I have to go to the easy route and play where the exploits are allowed and make use of them and lower my enjoyment of the game.