First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[mercules 1290]

LOL. Nice logic. So if you meet new people and become friends with them you take your phone and start scrolling down your contacts and think which existing friends you have to cut loose? :D

This one made my day! Thanks!

 

Spending time with "new friends" cuts into available time for old friends. I've got a life with a wife, kids, work, and friends have X hours. X-Y means less X for those friends. So when the choice becomes humoring people who knew me before my teenage daughter was born or trying to turn a stranger who likes the same setting in a game into someone as close... I'll take the former. 

[Wayze 549]

Okay, thanks. However learning medicin would indeed be a bit of a skill system. There are btw several "level" systems. Assigning points to a skill system is just one of them. There also are a lot of rpgs which advance their skills just by doing. E.g. jumping 500 timees makes you stronger, opening 20 locked doors  increases your dexterity etc.

 

Jagged Alliance 2 has one of the most awesome level systems out there. For example you can do lots

of things to open a door. Possibilities go from kicking it in, over lockpicking, to shooting it open, to using explosives or crowbars etc. And every action counts as practicing a certain skill. Even being overcumbered and walking long distances ingcreases your strength.

 

One of the most immersive games btw

 

Yes, it starts a bit like a laptop job. ^^ JA2 may look a bit unfamiliar at start, but it's going to get very awesome the longer you play. Especially the base game. One can not see it in a short video, but it gives you loads of realistic options. Has a lot of game depth in nearly every aspect. One of the deepest and difficultiest (depending on the settings) games ever made.

If learning medicin is a skill system, then everything is a skill system. Shooting, looting, running, reloading, aiming... you get the point. There is no system with points, with learing medicin I mean learing it for real. Not the character in the game learns about the medicin, it is actually you who learns about it. If you know the medicin in real life you will also have an advantage in the game.

 

And yes, I know there are skill system in many games. But DayZ is simply not a game for such a system. DayZ is something unique, it does not need to copie from other games because it is good as it is. There is no need for a skill system, it would just reduce the possibilities for playstyles. Dean is strictly against such a gameplay element in DayZ and I don't see that it will ever happen.

DayZ is not mainly about accomplishing something, actually DayZ is about the expirience, it is about what you see and what you live through. This combined with an immersive gameplay is what makes DayZ so great.

[aeinola 25]

Spending time with "new friends" cuts into available time for old friends. I've got a life with a wife, kids, work, and friends have X hours. X-Y means less X for those friends. So when the choice becomes humoring people who knew me before my teenage daughter was born or trying to turn a stranger who likes the same setting in a game into someone as close... I'll take the former. 

Well these are choices in life and not everyone is in the same situation. And there has been a thought here that Standalone should be released without 3rd person view. And in your situation it makes perfect sense. But its unfair for others that wants to play with 3rd person view enabled to force all play 1st person view only to satisfy your needs. That my friend is selfish. DayZ is not first person shooter, its more of a mmorpg. And 3rd person fits to this kind of game well. I'll stand behind my words and say there should be both. When SA release comes there should be servers for both views. And would like to see improvements and fixes for 1st person view (dont really care about 3rd person fixes since its impossible). I also feel strongly for two different hives. This could keep players on 1st person only servers if they start to play there. I prefer 3rd person servers but i dont want the 1st person only gameplay to disappear. I want it to get better so i can enjoy it more because its more intense and i like that feeling, for now its just too unrealistic and frustrating.

 

Sorry about your situation. That sucks.

[aeinola 25]

And yes, I know there are skill system in many games. But DayZ is simply not a game for such a system. DayZ is something unique, it does not need to copie from other games because it is good as it is. There is no need for a skill system, it would just reduce the possibilities for playstyles. Dean is strictly against such a gameplay element in DayZ and I don't see that it will ever happen.

DayZ is not mainly about accomplishing something, actually DayZ is about the expirience, it is about what you see and what you live through. This combined with an immersive gameplay is what makes DayZ so great.

I would love to see skill system in DayZ. If you get attached to your character and dont want to lose all your skills you do everything to stay alive, you might think twice before attack someone. It might be better to stay unnoticed and run away. But i dont want it to be point system. It should be "under the hood", so your skills grow automatically. You would notice it when you do stuff that your skills has grown but there should not be points that you add to some skills, that is not for DayZ.

[mercules 1290]

DayZ is not first person shooter, its more of a mmorpg. And 3rd person fits to this kind of game well. I'll stand behind my words and say there should be both. 

 

See, and that is where I am going to disagree with you. I see DayZ as a survival horror game and I believe FPV best fits that because the best way to bring about the horror element is to limit people's perspectives. This would be why horror movies tend towards dark setting with tons of shadows or flashing lights and billowing smoke/steam that makes it hard to see. This would be why they tend to go into narrow close shots in many horror movies that if not the character's exact point of view are often limited by their position. 

http://vimeo.com/53743444

Go to 5:00 and see how the very tight shot on Ripley even when we are in 3rd person doesn't show the area around her much. Notice how they keep switching into her perspective and how that builds tension? I can't find a short cut of that scene right off hand while at work but I think that view demonstrates how things get intense when the view is limited.

[aeinola 25]

See, and that is where I am going to disagree with you. I see DayZ as a survival horror game and I believe FPV best fits that because the best way to bring about the horror element is to limit people's perspectives. This would be why horror movies tend towards dark setting with tons of shadows or flashing lights and billowing smoke/steam that makes it hard to see. This would be why they tend to go into narrow close shots in many horror movies that if not the character's exact point of view are often limited by their position. 

http://vimeo.com/53743444

Go to 5:00 and see how the very tight shot on Ripley even when we are in 3rd person doesn't show the area around her much. Notice how they keep switching into her perspective and how that builds tension? I can't find a short cut of that scene right off hand while at work but I think that view demonstrates how things get intense when the view is limited.

I agree that 1st person is more intense. Didnt i just say that in the earlier post? No need of proof for that, lol. And in my opininon DayZ is FAR FROM HORROR GAME. DayZ is a survival "adventure" game with roleplaying elements (with out character development). Yes, there is horror moments and yes, there is shooter action. These two are making the survival adventure experience richer. If this was a horror game it would be, or rather should be way different, much different.

[mercules 1290]

I agree that 1st person is more intense. Didnt i just say that in the earlier post? No need of proof for that, lol. And in my opininon DayZ is FAR FROM HORROR GAME. DayZ is a survival "adventure" game with roleplaying elements (with out character development). Yes, there is horror moments and yes, there is shooter action. These two are making the survival adventure experience richer. If this was a horror game it would be, or rather should be way different, much different.

 

Eventually he hit on the idea to replace Arma‘s terrorists with zombies, but the undead would actually be the least of a player’s concerns. Hall was designing the game as a social experiment: Every time a player logged in, they’d be pitted against other players also hunting for supplies. Players would compete for limited food, water, and weaponry, and their anxiety would make them more deadly than the brain-eaters. The gameplay re-created his feeling of isolation in the jungle, surrounded by dozens of starving strangers, any of whom might be plotting to steal his meager supplies just as he was plotting to steal theirs. Hall wanted the possibility of dying and losing everything to drive players to kill other survivors in order to steal their rations. He would call the game Day Z, a twist on D-Day.

 

It looks like that intensity is supposed to be a part of the game. I think it works better in FPV. That is all.

[Wayze 549]

I agree that 1st person is more intense. Didnt i just say that in the earlier post? No need of proof for that, lol. And in my opininon DayZ is FAR FROM HORROR GAME. DayZ is a survival "adventure" game with roleplaying elements (with out character development). Yes, there is horror moments and yes, there is shooter action. These two are making the survival adventure experience richer. If this was a horror game it would be, or rather should be way different, much different.

I think that DayZ is neither a horror game nor is it an adventure. For me DayZ is the first and the only survival simulation ever made. It is not about roleplaying, it is just about survival. This includes the human behaviour which is not a role you play, it is more like yourself that you represent in the game. You are not pretending to be someone else, for example when speaking to another survival. You don't say "Hi, I am Rick Johnston and I survived since two months...". You are not getting into a role and that it why it is no roleplaying game. The gameplay itself, the core of the gameplay is the human behaviour. You don't take some role, some thought up person, you just behave like a human being, whether it is good or bad.

And all of this is survival, to be exact zombie survival. People act like they would probably in real life (I am not talking about the mod, which obviously failed due to lack of immersion and realism) or how they would like to act. The survival genre, which was invented by DayZ in my opinion, includes the realistic simulation of a survival scenario. This includes all aspects of a human being, which is represented by the acts he does. This survival genre is mostly about what you expirience in the game, to be honest, in my opinion it is 100% about what you expirience in the game. The unique situations and the unlimited variation of human behaviour is perfectly implemented. The key feature of this game, of this survival game, is that the human behaviour is the most important and essential part. It is about the human, how he reacts with other humans and what he is willing to do to survive, to help others etc.

 

This is for me DayZ, you cannot put it into a genre. It is simply the first real (zombie) survival simulator and there is no single doubt about that. There was no other game which had the idea of realism and real unscripted human behaviour together in one concept. And exactly these two parts are very essential for a survival simulation, which is why there was never such a game before.

 

The DayZ Mod turned into some kind of looting and killing game. There is no real survival aspect anymore and also the human behaviour is very limited due to lack of realism. This will hopefully change in the SA.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Wayze

[aeinola 25]

It looks like that intensity is supposed to be a part of the game. I think it works better in FPV. That is all.

I agree. But like i said. 1st person view is so limited, so unrealistic and frustrating, its not enjoyable at the moment. If the 1st person would be fixed completely, i dont miss the 3rd person view at all anymore. Even with fixed 1st person view i want the 3rd person view to stay for the players that want to play with it. I can play on 1st person only servers, no problem. And here is why i want the TPV stay. Lots of people want it in the game and the option for both makes it better for bigger crowd, and that means SA gets more players, more money and keeps the DayZ train going and makes the games future more secure. Its the same thing with TV-Shows. Even if a show is insanely good for hardcore fans it might get low attention and eventyally get cancelled. Im not saying it should be made for the masses, im just saying it should be made in a way that hardcore fans enjoy it lot but also it gets lots of players too. Its a compromise and compromises can be done horribly wrong or they can be made really well, profitable without making the game worse. In my opinion its best for the game if there its option to choose with which view you want to play. FPV only or TPV enabled. And i know this compromise dont help your situation with your friends, but maybe they could fix the FPV, make it more enjoyable and maybe your friends will jump ship? I try to think for all players, not just my personal preferences.

[Wayze 549]

I agree. But like i said. 1st person view is so limited, so unrealistic and frustrating, its not enjoyable at the moment. If the 1st person would be fixed completely, i dont miss the 3rd person view at all anymore. Even with fixed 1st person view i want the 3rd person view to stay for the players that want to play with it. I can play on 1st person only servers, no problem. And here is why i want the TPV stay. Lots of people want it in the game and the option for both makes it better for bigger crowd, and that means SA gets more players, more money and keeps the DayZ train going and makes the games future more secure. Its the same thing with TV-Shows. Even if a show is insanely good for hardcore fans it might get low attention and eventyally get cancelled. Im not saying it should be made for the masses, im just saying it should be made in a way that hardcore fans enjoy it lot but also it gets lots of players too. Its a compromise and compromises can be done horribly wrong or they can be made really well, profitable without making the game worse. In my opinion its best for the game if there its option to choose with which view you want to play. FPV only or TPV enabled. And i know this compromise dont help your situation with your friends, but maybe they could fix the FPV, make it more enjoyable and maybe your friends will jump ship? I try to think for all players, not just my personal preferences.

Why is FPV more unrealistic than TPV? And what is so limited about the FPV?

What would you like to have fixed?

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Why is FPV more unrealistic than TPV? And what is so limited about the FPV?

What would you like to have fixed?

There are plenty of limitations and draw backs to both perspectives because it is not real life. A better peeking system for FPV is crucial and the biggest drawback to FPV is body awareness. If you are making the dreaded "realism" argument then one of the biggest drawbacks to FPV is the lack of body awareness and spatial awareness. In real life (remember you brought up realism, I hate realism arguments because it is a game) you do not have to see someone walking behind you to detect their presence. Walking by objects does not require as many bumps as you experience in FPV either, because we have a variety of senses that all blend together to give us spatial awareness and a better attachment to our environment. In a video game you get two senses, and often sound is flawed. Also FOV will rarely match up to a realistic FOV even with a slider. Maybe a three screen set up, but that is not an option for many people.

Also it is not really a fix that is needed, it is just something you accept when you play FPV in any game. Much like you have to accept the drawbacks of TPV in any game that allows it.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Zombie Jesus

[aeinola 25]

I think that DayZ is neither a horror game nor is it an adventure. For me DayZ is the first and the only survival simulation ever made. It is not about roleplaying, it is just about survival. This includes the human behaviour which is not a role you play, it is more like yourself that you represent in the game. You are not pretending to be someone else, for example when speaking to another survival. You don't say "Hi, I am Rick Johnston and I survived since two months...". You are not getting into a role and that it why it is no roleplaying game. The gameplay itself, the core of the gameplay is the human behaviour. You don't take some role, some thought up person, you just behave like a human being, whether it is good or bad.

And all of this is survival, to be exact zombie survival. People act like they would probably in real life (I am not talking about the mod, which obviously failed due to lack of immersion and realism) or how they would like to act. The survival genre, which was invented by DayZ in my opinion, includes the realistic simulation of a survival scenario. This includes all aspects of a human being, which is represented by the acts he does. This survival genre is mostly about what you expirience in the game, to be honest, in my opinion it is 100% about what you expirience in the game. The unique situations and the unlimited variation of human behaviour is perfectly implemented. The key feature of this game, of this survival game, is that the human behaviour is the most important and essential part. It is about the human, how he reacts with other humans and what he is willing to do to survive, to help others etc.

 

This is for me DayZ, you cannot put it into a genre. It is simply the first real (zombie) survival simulator and there is no single doubt about that. There was no other game which had the idea of realism and real unscripted human behaviour together in one concept. And exactly these two parts are very essential for a survival simulation, which is why there was never such a game before.

 

The DayZ Mod turned into some kind of looting and killing game. There is no real survival aspect anymore and also the human behaviour is very limited due to lack of realism. This will hopefully change in the SA.

Again you think everyone wants what you want. Im roleplaying all the time in DayZ, and im going to continue when SA comes out. It has nothing to do with FPV or TPV or how realistic the game is. I play games because i can experience and do things i would not do in real life. Sometimes i play massmurderer-bandit and kill everything and everyone in front of me, sometimes i play hero, help survivors and hunt bandits. Sometimes i play PvP with my friends, more tactical military style. These are all roleplaying in different styles. DayZ is a roleplaying game, at least in to some point and there is nothing you can do about it. FPV only wont change that. You need to start think other people too, not just your own opinions and think everyone wants/thinks the same. It sound you live in you own dream world and you want so bad that SA would be the perfect game for you, and that all the other people thinks the same way you do and wants to play the game same way you do. And if not? FORCE THEM ALL TO PLAY SAME WAY!!! If they are not happy, they will calm down, they will learn to like your way better, eventually they will accept "your way" and be happy about it. Thats just insane.

[aeinola 25]

Why is FPV more unrealistic than TPV? And what is so limited about the FPV?

What would you like to have fixed?

Did i say FPV is more unrealistic than TPV? This is AGAIN perfect example of how your mind works. Automatically you assume that this is about FPV vs TPV issue that if something is wrong about FPV i automatically think TPV has it better? Jesus man...

In FPV view your view is unrealistically limited. Explain to me please, in real world, if you are prone in the woods behind a small rock, so small that you are hidden behind it when you are prone but if you rise up to your knee you expose your whole upper body. Okay, you are lying behind the rock there is someone 100 meters front of you. You are not sure if he knows you are there and if he does you are sure he will try to shoot you. What would you do if you want to see what this guy is doing? In real life, explain to me.

[dgeesio 1034]

at pg 100 dean will announce which camera view will stay !

[Wazza 274]

ANNNND ?

 

Edited:

 

Sorry trying to see page 100

Edited September 6, 2013 by Wazza

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

We're getting 4th person view only.

Somebody, in a secret location, vaguely describes what's going on, down the phone.

 

No more peeking round corners.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I recently watched a couple videos on youtube by DevilDogGamer, they're about a GTA police mod, where you get to play as the cops. The part that related to this thread was the fact that in the first video he plays in third person and then in the second video has has installed a first person mod.

 

 

 

It clearly shows how much easier it is for him to handle the car and work the game in third person view. When he switches to first person, it seems awkward due to his new perspective.(As it should) He struggles to keep aware of the situation, rather than having it all play out before his eyes.

 

It's not proof of anything, & it doesn't even add anything new to the conversation really. I just though it was interesting to see the two systems in a completely different game after debating about them so much on here. The one thing that really struck me was how much more beautiful the game was in the first person view. Some of the picturesque scenes from out his windshield made me wonder why Rockstar doesn't include a FPV. Perhaps it's just that I haven't seen Liberty City from those angles, but it made me want to buy GTA4 for PC just for the buggy first person mod.(even though I already own it for xbox.)

Edited September 7, 2013 by bad_mojo

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

The fact that the entire game is designed with nothing but 3rd person in mind probably had a wee part to play.

With the Euphoria animation-blending it's a pain in the arse running around sometimes, even without the FPV mod.

 

EDIT:

While I'm thinking about it. An officially-endorsed FPV for R* games would be cool, but with GTA-online being a thing, they'd just end up with this same argument.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Chabowski

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The fact that the entire game is designed with nothing but 3rd person in mind probably had a wee part to play.

With the Euphoria animation-blending it's a pain in the arse running around sometimes, even without the FPV mod.

 

EDIT:

While I'm thinking about it. An officially-endorsed FPV for R* games would be cool, but with GTA-online being a thing, they'd just end up with this same argument.

 

It was more of the "having to look" stuff I was talking about. When you can't see around the corners, or see over the car you're following, things gets more difficult for the player. They have to deal with stuff as it comes at them, rather than being able to look forward and plan ahead.

Edited September 7, 2013 by bad_mojo

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Yeah, at least in DayZ you can pop your head out.

 

But as I was saying, it's still entirely designed for 3dp. DayZ being designed to be both makes it a different kettle of fish in terms of situation.

Honestly, I think if focus had shifted earlier in development the debate would be less heated here.

At least "Rocket says so" still flies. When the "chop or not" call is made, everyone has the right to STFU and GTFO.

[dsi24 227]

Man the quality of that first person mod has improved so much, it used to act like a titanium rod welded to your hips: super jumpy. Looks surprisingly good now.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

just watched latest dev blog.

 

Rocket confirmed 3rd person is in.

 

/endthread..

 

thx Rocket..

 

 

5mins to 5:30 secs in.

[Jamz 253]

I'm interested to see exactly how TPV has been changed. Good blog though, that inventory system looks more complicated. I wonder if you can still lose things accidently by moving them between sections?

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

But as I was saying, it's still entirely designed for 3dp. DayZ being designed to be both makes it a different kettle of fish in terms of situation.

 

I feel like you barely skim my posts.

 

I tried to show the difference in difficult between first and third in any game and you dismiss it by implying difficulty in first person GTA is a result it being designed for third person. DayZ, GTA, COD, BF, it doesn't matter, the difference between playing first and third is there in each.

 

I agree the fact that he played a MOD version of first person probably increased the difficult. But, that's not at all the difficulty I was talking about. In fact, he seemed to control the character better in first than I can in third. I was talking about the difficulty that comes with seeing less and having to move your tunnel vision around to see everything. Maintaining situational awareness in a difficult situation isn't easy and giving a player third person view makes it a hell of a lot easier. No amount of design focus will change the fact that third person views give almost better than reality awareness in most games.

[dsi24 227]

The interesting thing there is that TPV isn't required anymore like he was talking about in that reddit thread. Presumably as he finds out how impossible it is to make TPV unexploitable it will become more obvious that it just has to go.