First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Zombie Jesus 723]

No vehicles. They are completely redoing them, not just bringing them over from ARMA. Just like the guns they will have some customizability. They want to make it so you can find some scrap metal and craft on some reinforcement to knock zombies aside or armor the windows.

Even so it should have plenty to do. Finding a nice scope or stock for your gun might be a goal in and of itself. With items degrading with use you might end up on quests to find new shoes before yours get too worn. :)

I knew they wanted to build new vehicles from the ground up just like they are doing with guns but they were also kicking around the idea of releasing the standalone with the old vehicles and then updating from there. For myself it is not too big of a deal, but I hope the development of new vehicles is within the 3-5 month range instead of taking way too long. I think most players love the concept of vehicles but functionally they have always been a pain in the ass. They are hard to hide (especially when you add in esp) and are bullet magnets.

I know a good amount of people who enjoy the heavily modified servers we see now will be unhappy with the standalone but lately I have been thinking people who want it to mirror vanilla DayZ will also be disappointed. Both groups are going to need to concede to the fact that things have to change in the standalone, otherwise it is just going to be a stale rehash with better window dressing.

Since I am already way off topic I should bring it back by throwing some fire on this flame, everyone who uses third person are horrible players scared of playing a real mans game and anyone who wants to take away third person are DayZ hipsters who think everyone should enjoy the same horrible things they enjoy.

[IncognitoNico 71]

Ok... I haven't checked this thread in 2 days, so anybody wanna catch me up? I doubt anything has happened everybody's used the same argument since the beginning... the 3rd person defenders say it's better for a bunch of useless reasons and the 1st person defenders say 1st is better for the immersion and lack of exploitability 

[Wayze 549]

Actually, it is not as hard as you think. I play paintball with a group of people a few years back a couple of my paintball friends used to host winter matches of woods ball. Now in Minnesota winter paintball gets interesting, but that is an aside. They did it because there were not normal matches going on. We would get a big group together and hit the woods behind their house. 

Having been in their woods in the winter before I knew what the terrain was like and what was out there. There was a good deal of Jack Pine and White Pine as well as a lot of bushes that look like Red Oak and similar things. So I made my own camo. 

First thing was a base for which I found an old black cloth duster although a trench coat would work as well. I got it large so I could wear heavy clothing under it since it would be winter but then I could also wear it without in the fall and spring. I then put bleach in a spray bottle and began to stripe the coat by spraying it with bleach in wavy stripes. When I was done it was still mostly black but it was approaching the, "White with black stripes or black with white stripes?" point. On top of that base I added a bunch of "Pine Garland" you can buy at any craft store any time after august. People use it for Christmas decorations.

 

I added that to my goggles as well as some strips torn from socks then dyed. 

Over that I put some fall leaves like this:

Which are nice because they have wire branches so you can actually wire them in and have them stick out as I did on my goggles and one of my shoulders. What I ended up with broke up my form enough that while crouched in a bush I was able to sit there and watch another person who scanned the bush I was in twice right in the goggles. She jumped so much she fell over and swears she had no idea I was there until the paintball hit her and she was less than 10 feet away. She wasn't the only one. In fact her husband afterwards went, "You know, I was laughing at you when you put that on, but damn did it work out in the woods. How did you make it?"

 

Yes, I played softair. We had our own ghillie suits, but that is because we had time to make them, we were having ghillie suits to actually hide from each other. I don't think that people in the apocalypse will have the time to make their own ghillie suits and even if they had they would not walk around with these things because it is unpractical and awfully hot in there. Also you need to specialise your camo at new locations, everytime. This is something that does not work out in a game.

Also, you as a paintball player are probably more into this combat stuff than an average citizen. They don't know how to make a ghillie suit and probably they wouldn't even bother.

 

Also paintball is something completly different from a real combat situation. The adrenalin is over the top and you are just scared as sh*t. I know from expirience that stuff like paintball gives you adrenaline too, but this is simply nothing compared to "real life". It does not really unlock your survival instincts, the fear is not high enough to get your body focused on survival, which means better peripheric sight etc.

You have a huge advantage, because you are in camo. But if you made a mistake, which happens pretty easy if you are an amateur, it means nothing else than your death. If you think nobody can see you, it could get a problem.

 

And the last point is that in DayZ you can hide as good as in real life, in a shorter time you can do it better than you actually would be able. Just run into a pinetree and you are perfectly safe, with a ghillie suit you are invisible. I don't think you need third person for that.

 

Edited September 6, 2013 by Wayze

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Ok... I haven't checked this thread in 2 days, so anybody wanna catch me up? I doubt anything has happened everybody's used the same argument since the beginning... the 3rd person defenders say it's better for a bunch of useless reasons and the 1st person defenders say 1st is better for the immersion and lack of exploitability

For some reason I can not tell which side you fall on lol. I am just here doing my part to get this useless discussion over the 100 page count because lets face it no matter how many awesome arguments people make in favor of 1st person only the standalone will most likely have both. After it crests 100 pages I will never talk about this again, because it is an exercise in abject stupidity.

[mercules 1290]

Before you splash out on a TrackIR take a look at "Freetrack".  It's a bit of a faff to get set up but works amazingly and it saved me a lot of money.

 

I can get a TrackIR with the clip for $170 or a decent webcam that is worth buying for about $100. Now mind you, the webcam can be used for other things like Video chats and such, however my wife also has serious issues with something that can record her wandering around without her knowing... I am not going to tell her about the remote app I have on my phone for the video camera we bought or it will have to be locked away. ;) So I HAD a webcam but it is old and crappy now since we have been together almost 9 years now and I haven't bought anything new in that time. 

So, $170 for a device designed to do that or about $100 for one that isn't and I will probably have to put away when I'm not playing which means recalibrating it every time I put it back? I'll have to work that out.

 

I know a good amount of people who enjoy the heavily modified servers we see now will be unhappy with the standalone but lately I have been thinking people who want it to mirror vanilla DayZ will also be disappointed. Both groups are going to need to concede to the fact that things have to change in the standalone, otherwise it is just going to be a stale rehash with better window dressing.

 

You need to go watch the recent videos. It is already pretty far form a stale rehash with better window dressing. You have to really search for items and that alone will give it a freshness. So will all the status effects that can be on your character now. We now limp or crouch when hurt. It should be interesting and a bit more immersive... which is why I am wondering about keeping 3rd person in. :)

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Also, you as a paintball player are probably more into this combat stuff than an average citizen. They don't know how to make a ghillie suit and probably they wouldn't even bother.

 

I'm sure folks could figure it out.

[IncognitoNico 71]

For some reason I can not tell which side you fall on lol. I am just here doing my part to get this useless discussion over the 100 page count because lets face it no matter how many awesome arguments people make in favor of 1st person only the standalone will most likely have both. After it crests 100 pages I will never talk about this again, because it is an exercise in abject stupidity.

I'm kinda sitting on the fence, I would prefer that 3rd goes away but at the same time I realize that it's not and that people will still exploit it in the SA and if they remove the exploitablity, people won't use it anyways or it won't make any difference so I don't care anymore

[mercules 1290]

Also, you as a paintball player are probably more into this combat stuff than an average citizen. They don't know how to make a ghillie suit and probably they wouldn't even bother.

 

That was actually my first year out in paintball and I had played mostly on Air courts. You know, limited area boxed in with a net so spectators could watch and be safe, air bunkers, no camo, and gear covered in fluorescent colors. Heck my gun is yellow and purple swirls and my goggles have a rainbow sheen to them. That was this amateur's first try at camo. :) I mean I did read a bit about ghillies before starting but not all that much. The concept of camo is extremely simple and straightforward. Break up your form. Make it not be man shaped. 

[Heiduk 265]

I actually don't believe that the servers are 3rd enabled because that is what everyone wants. I believe most of the servers are 3rd enabled so that is where people play. There is a big difference.

 

I think this is a bigger reason for the current server populations than many people on both sides of the issue would like to admit. 3 of the 4 default difficulty levels enable 3rd person. If I was a new player introduced to ARMA by DayZ setting up a server last fall when player and server numbers peaked I would have picked one of the default server profiles. More than likely I would have picked a profile in the middle of the difficulty range, and that would have meant yet another third person.

 

Like so many of DayZ's current features that we take for granted I think the dominance of 3rd person is an accident as much as anything.

 

I have to admit that landing a chopper in FPV can be DAMN HARD. I play in Breaking Point when Vanilla gets too frustrating where you can actually lift some vehicles with certain helicopters and fly them to other locations. TPV makes that trivial while FPV means I basically need a spotter or some good guessing to know when I am nice and close and can lift or drop a vehicle. 

 

Having hooked up a few sling loads in real-life and knowing of a couple helos that went gone down because of improperly loaded slings, I think this is exactly how it should be. This shouldn't be a skill that you master in 20 minutes. Hell even though they were less than 1.5 meters tall and nearly 50 m from the LZ helo-ops made us move a couple of the tents at one field camp because they were underneath the flight line that the pilots preferred.

 

That being said, functional mirrors would go a long way towards making vehicles, including helos, much more realistic and easier to operate..

[Wayze 549]

That was actually my first year out in paintball and I had played mostly on Air courts. You know, limited area boxed in with a net so spectators could watch and be safe, air bunkers, no camo, and gear covered in fluorescent colors. Heck my gun is yellow and purple swirls and my goggles have a rainbow sheen to them. That was this amateur's first try at camo. :) I mean I did read a bit about ghillies before starting but not all that much. The concept of camo is extremely simple and straightforward. Break up your form. Make it not be man shaped. 

You cannot just pick one argument out of my post and then respond to it. A normal citizen who did not play egoshooters or watch military videos will not even think about a ghillie suit. There are too many things they have to concern about like: food, safety, food, weapons, food, food, food...

Most people probably don't even know what a ghillie suit looks like or what it is. It is not as simple as you think. Like I said, you were playing paintball, you cannot compare this to any real life combat situation. The guys you played with were also amateurs I assume? Well, in a zombie survival scenario the amateurs will be wiped out at first. If there are some left they have to adapt very fast. They don't rush through a forest having fun and shooting with paint bullets. They fight for survival and you should never unterrastimate people who do that.

 

 

You are totally right, break up your form. This is the most important part, but I bet you read exactly that in a book. 99% of human population don't know anything about "breaking up your form", it is simple but it is not obvious to everybody.

 

And again, real combat is totally different from a game. What you do mainly is just observing your surroundings. I am pretty sure if the guys you played against were careful enough they would have seen you. It is not like you watch 2 mins and then move up. It is more like you observe 30 mins and then move up. In that time they are pretty much able to locate every amateur camo, if it is not very luckily made.

 

Anyways, you had a camo which you prepared at home. In a combat situation where you have to get into cover and camo yourself within seconds or minutes I bet you would not be able to do it. Nobody walks around in a ghillie if he is not preparing for observation or combat. It is used for snipers or ambushes, but not for long distance walks. And as we all know, DayZ is kind of about long distance walks.

 

But that was not the point in this discussion. Someone said he could not camo himself good because of first person, which is in my opinion not the case. You can camo really well and even in real life you are not always aware of being exposed. This is an issue that is not based on first person, but it gets solved by third person which is again, totally unrealistic.

[Ken Bean 175]

No vehicles. They are completely redoing them, not just bringing them over from ARMA. Just like the guns they will have some customizability. They want to make it so you can find some scrap metal and craft on some reinforcement to knock zombies aside or armor the windows.

Even so it should have plenty to do. Finding a nice scope or stock for your gun might be a goal in and of itself. With items degrading with use you might end up on quests to find new shoes before yours get too worn. :)

 

They add so much cool stuff, at least it sounds like that, the 3rd person view im more important than it ever was.

 

Didn't they also say that there are also healer or sanis or something like that? Maybe different classes with different abilities? That canibalsm thing also could open some interesting posabilities. Maybe even gang/tribal clothes, face paintings or whatever this is called like?

 

I'd love to see a group management system ingame. Shared maps and stuff.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

This is the most important part, but I bet you read exactly that in a book. 99% of human population don't know anything about "breaking up your form", it is simple but it is not obvious to everybody.

 

"Daddy, why do tigers have strips?"

"Camouflage so they can sneak up on their prey."

"Stripes?"

"Yeah, they break up it's shape so it doesn't look like a big tiger in the long grass." 

"Oh."

That or the Discovery channel. I know as a kid(which was long before discovery channel) I watched specials on animals and learned all about camouflage before anything else. 

That isn't even taking into account all the hunters who go out every fall. Only Rifle Season requires orange and even then you can wear orange "camouflage" that is visable to humans but still breaks up your form so that deer have issues seeing you. Those who don't hunt frequently know those who do. Camouflage is not as mystical as you make it out to be. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that TPV is not needed for the purpose of making sure you are hidden in a bush. I agree that amateurs will not hide well enough to hide from professionals and that we can hide very well in this game very easily. I think you are thinking too much though. If you are assuming the hider is an amateur then you will have to assume that the searching survivors are not professionals either. I know it takes time to get into a position in such a way that you do not disturb your surroundings so that you don't give yourself away(now after years of woodsball) but even a rank amateur can hide well enough from another rank amateur in  pine trees such as the ones we typically see people hide in. ;)

[Zombie Jesus 723]

If third person is removed in standalone how will I ever get to witness all of these cool new animations like limping? I will never be able to check out my YOLO Swag that I obtained with my Leet 720 no scope skillz killz son. I worked hard to camp that hospital roof laying down but still retaining 360 degrees of vision to pop up and spam DMR rounds at some noob. That is mad skill right there.

I am pretty sure that character is what many of you imagine my argument breaking down to. Man I am bored at work, hate working on Fridays.

[mercules 1290]

They add so much cool stuff, at least it sounds like that, the 3rd person view im more important than it ever was.

 

Didn't they also say that there are also healer or sanis or something like that? Maybe different classes with different abilities? That canibalsm thing also could open some interesting posabilities. Maybe even gang/tribal clothes, face paintings or whatever this is called like?

 

No, it's not more important. You have a view of your character in your inventory screen. So all that cool stuff can be seen there. 

He said maybe someday he could add a skill system, but not for a long time, however players themselves could act like a medic. Paraphrasing I believe he said something about how a person could act like a medic for a group and carry a bunch of medical based supplies. In a recent video he stated they would like to get splints into the game for broken bones and you would be forced to crawl until you splinted a leg and with the splint you would limp until someone could do a higher level of medical care that takes more time. That is where he would like to get to, but not there yet. You do limp in the SA though, I've seen the animations. 

[Ken Bean 175]

If third person is removed in standalone how will I ever get to witness all of these cool new animations like limping?

 

Not on your character. You see a bit the 1st person cam shaking and some weird arms or legs might be thrown in, only first person would be a bit pointless.

 

 

@Mercules

Thanks for the info. I see, lots planned, less shipped within the release.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

@Mercules

Sorry, but I won't even bother to read your text. You did exactly the same as before. Taking one sentence out of my argumentation and trying to see it as my main point. Let me do the same:

 

 

Those who don't hunt frequently know those who do.

No they don't.

 

 

 

@Mercules

Thanks for the info. I see, lots planned, less shipped within the release.

I think almost everything what Mercules wrote is already implemented:

-limping

-character in inventory

-higher medicine

 

The single sets of medical conditions are not implemented right now I think. But that is something pretty easy, so it should not take too long.

 

And what he wrote about the skill system is, as far as I know, wrong. Dean especially said that they never want a skill system, the people should choose by themselfs to be what they want. A medic for example would learn the features of the medicines, where to find them etc.

So no skills and no class system. The behaviour and playstyle of the player is defining his "class" and his "skills". This is something Dean said more than once.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Wayze

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

If third person is removed in standalone how will I ever get to witness all of these cool new animations like limping?

 

 

Not on your character. You see a bit the 1st person cam shaking and some weird arms or legs might be thrown in, only first person would be a bit pointless.

 

 

@Mercules

Thanks for the info. I see, lots planned, less shipped within the release.

 

Crazy idea, observe others.

[Ken Bean 175]

Crazy idea, observe others.

 

 

I'm less voyeuristic, but seeing my character doing survival stuff would be awesome. To get into the survival mood, I'd consider that more important than shooting other player or watching them.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

If third person is removed in standalone how will I ever get to witness all of these cool new animations like limping?

In my opinion the animations look pretty bad. It is probably because of the engine, it seems that it is not easy to get animations working decent. Anyway, the game is not about watching the animations, but more about having an immersive expirience. Isn't DayZ about your story? But, if you are in third person, does it really seem like your story, or maybe just the one of your character?

[Ken Bean 175]

@Mercules

Sorry, but I won't even bother to read your text. You did exactly the same as before. Taking one sentence out of my argumentation and trying to see it as my main point. Let me do the same:

 

 

No they don't.

 

 

 

I think almost everything what Mercules wrote is already implemented:

-limping

-character in inventory

-higher medicine

 

The single sets of medical conditions are not implemented right now I think. But that is something pretty easy, so it should not take too long.

 

And what he wrote about the skill system is, as far as I know, wrong. Dean especially said that they never want a skill system, the people should choose by themselfs to be what they want. A medic for example would learn the features of the medicines, where to find them etc.

So no skills and no class system. The behaviour and playstyle of the player is defining his "class" and his "skills". This is something Dean said more than once.

 

 

Okay, thanks. However learning medicin would indeed be a bit of a skill system. There are btw several "level" systems. Assigning points to a skill system is just one of them. There also are a lot of rpgs which advance their skills just by doing. E.g. jumping 500 timees makes you stronger, opening 20 locked doors  increases your dexterity etc.

 

Jagged Alliance 2 has one of the most awesome level systems out there. For example you can do lots

of things to open a door. Possibilities go from kicking it in, over lockpicking, to shooting it open, to using explosives or crowbars etc. And every action counts as practicing a certain skill. Even being overcumbered and walking long distances ingcreases your strength.

 

One of the most immersive games btw

 

Yes, it starts a bit like a laptop job. ^^ JA2 may look a bit unfamiliar at start, but it's going to get very awesome the longer you play. Especially the base game. One thing you can not see it in this videos is that it gives you loads of realistic options. Has a lot of game depth in nearly every aspect. One of the deepest and difficultiest (depending on the settings) games ever made.

 

Also a  very awesome game:

Edited September 6, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 175]

In my opinion the animations look pretty bad. It is probably because of the engine, it seems that it is not easy to get animations working decent. Anyway, the game is not about watching the animations, but more about having an immersive expirience. Isn't DayZ about your story? But, if you are in third person, does it really seem like your story, or maybe just the one of your character?

 

Absolutely perfectly. If I'm in the 3rd person I see my char and I also identify myself with him. So the dude in game is actually me, no problem there.

[prominentalex 76]

I have a server if anybody is looking for a strictly hardcore server, it's brand new and has a fresh database.

Info:
http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/144974-wolf-pack-dayzchernarus-hardcore-server-active-admins-many-custom-scripts-kill-messages-added-weapons-debug/

 

 

IP: 67.228.177.191:3034

TS3: ts52.gameservers.com:9314

[tommes 331]

I'm less voyeuristic, but seeing my character doing survival stuff would be awesome. To get into the survival mood, I'd consider that more important than shooting other player or watching them.

Ain't he cute? ^^

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Crazy idea, observe others.

Crazy idea, read sarcasm. Derp.

I think what is missing here is a couple of you (not all) are completely missing the point of what preference means. It means I prefer something, not that I think it is necessarily right. Many of you make logical points (except Tommes) about the "exploits" that third person leads to, I would argue that none of them are exploits but just the natural outcome of the third person perspective. That is why I normally do not like third person shooters, they always allow corner peeking and unfair camping techniques. For myself this thread reads like a long rant about water being wet.

[aeinola 25]

You said:  "Find new friends".

 

I said:  "I'm not going to change my friends."

 

No wordplay needed.

LOL. Nice logic. So if you meet new people and become friends with them you take your phone and start scrolling down your contacts and think which existing friends you have to cut loose? :D

This one made my day! Thanks!