First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[rossums 2190]

Removing third person requires very serious consideration, because third person seems to be the most important feature, when people are making decisions about joining a server or not, even for the "hardcore" fans whatever that means. Any decision that affects the game's server population negatively has to be considered very carefully and excluding third person view, seems to have a very negative effect on server populations. 

 

In some sense you can compare removing third person, with removing PvP from DayZ, it's just as serious a factor. DayZ will always be a multiplayer experience, while the survival and zombie mechanics adds to the game, it's the whole player meet player dynamic that creates the unpredictable moments and the unique stories DayZ thrives on. Without bandits, heroes and strangers, DayZ might become very trivial and predictable and without third person servers, you might end up with wasting all those man hours on creating a mmo structure for low population first person servers.

 

Maybe it's time to ask yourself, what is it third person does so well?

Why is it, third person fills up servers, while first person servers die?

 

Personally I think there's more to that answer, than calling us cheaters and n00bs.

That's the thing though, 3rd-person in its current form makes encounters a lot more predictable - you hunker down and watch for the other person to get bored before you.

It's get into cover and view over the obstacles until the other guy pops out then shoot them because you can already see what they are somehow doing from behind a giant rock.

Purely looking at the polls, the majority of players WANT to play 1st-person but all the more popular servers by popular hosts are doing the sensible thing and catering to the lowest common denominator by turning 3rd-person on.

If they want 1st-person they can use it but most a lot of people, myself included, feel forced into using 3rd-person rather than handicap themselves - there is no real other place to go so you really just have to grin and bare it or potentially try other servers with administrators that haven't proven themselves.

If you look at DayZero, the few 1st-person perspective servers there normally are are normally 75%+ full the vast majority of the time whereas the other 3rd-person servers there are maybe one or two reaching that with many empty servers.

I don't see it as cheating or nooby but it really does detract from the whole experience when 'you' can see something that you couldn't possibly be able to see - the video in the OP illustrates it perfectly by showing the enemy characters waiting round a corner to ambush yet the player in 3rd-person being able to spot them before even going round the corner.

I see 3rd-person currently as the easier option (Which is undeniable at this point) but it does have potential if they were to fix either the camera positioning (So you can't see over/under/round objects before you even reach them) or by changing the way the camera acts when you move closer to an object, e.g. it pans closer to you as you reach the wall.

Comparing removing 3rd-person to removing PvP is just ridiculous hyperbole and completely incomparable.

 

Very good points. Third person gives you time for player interaction. You have time to think, to observe and to judge.

 

Why do you see this as a good thing?

Wouldn't it be be significantly better if you had to try and decide what to do in that split second as you both spot each other rather than being able to peek over an obstacle and gun them down from a position they couldn't possibly see you from?

The game is meant to be about the harsh, quick decisions you have to make to keep alive, not sitting back and picking apart every single encounter before you decide to engage - the only time that should happen is if you manage to run into someone and spot them before they spot you, you can use that to get the jump on them and it's their own fault for not seeing you - there is no real way to outmaneuver someone behind an obstacle that can see over the wall and you can't see them at all.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Rossums

[Ken Bean 175]

That's the thing though, 3rd-person in its current form makes encounters a lot more predictable - you hunker down and watch for the other person to get bored before you.

It's get into cover and view over the obstacles until the other guy pops out then shoot them because you can already see what they are somehow doing from behind a giant rock.

Purely looking at the polls, the majority of players WANT to play 1st-person but all the more popular servers by popular hosts are doing the sensible thing and catering to the lowest common denominator by turning 3rd-person on.

If they want 1st-person they can use it but most a lot of people, myself included, feel forced into using 3rd-person rather than handicap themselves - there is no real other place to go so you really just have to grin and bare it or potentially try other servers with administrators that haven't proven themselves.

If you look at DayZero, the few 1st-person perspective servers there normally are are normally 75%+ full the vast majority of the time whereas the other 3rd-person servers there are maybe one or two reaching that with many empty servers.

I don't see it as cheating or nooby but it really does detract from the whole experience when 'you' can see something that you couldn't possibly be able to see - the video in the OP illustrates it perfectly by showing the enemy characters waiting round a corner to ambush yet the player in 3rd-person being able to spot them before even going round the corner.

I see 3rd-person currently as the easier option (Which is undeniable at this point) but it does have potential if they were to fix either the camera positioning (So you can't see over/under/round objects before you even reach them) or by changing the way the camera acts when you move closer to an object, e.g. it pans closer to you as you reach the wall.

Comparing removing 3rd-person to removing PvP is just ridiculous hyperbole and completely incomparable.

 

 

Yeah, 90 % want to play 1st person only, but cant, because of the remaining 10%, which is playing on 3rd person server...

 

Wait a minute. If those 90% would play on 1st person server, they'd probably full, right? Just do it.

 

 

Regarding player interaction. I imagine interaction difficult, I someone runs around a corner and immedeately shoots me into the face, because he's thilled 180% and a bit nervous as well. So he just saw something moving and thought in those 20 miliseconds of time: "Shit, him or me."

 

I prefer to keep my head down and watch a while. Guess I would be forced to let weapons speek more if 3rd person would be removed. Yes, 3rd person gives you time. Maybe this is rather important if you want to make friendies?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Removing third person requires very serious consideration, because third person seems to be the most important feature, when people are making decisions about joining a server or not, even for the "hardcore" fans whatever that means. Any decision that affects the game's server population negatively has to be considered very carefully and excluding third person view, seems to have a very negative effect on server populations.

 

Actually, the most important feature for most people when joining a server is number of players.

 

We can't know what would happen to server populations if third person was removed from the standalone. So you're comments are rather baseless. I could make some wild claims based on the polls on here and reddit, but they wouldn't be anymore factual than what you just claimed.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Purely looking at the polls, the majority of players WANT to play 1st-person

"Purely looking at the polls" in the FPV "O'Doyle Rules!" threads is NOT a legitimate measure.

The only fact all these polls provide is that more FPV-only players answered the poll.

Everyone else was busy playing the game. (on their 3dp-enabled servers)

 

EDIT:

Just to be clear: I couldn't care less either way.

The squabbling though. It's pretty pathetic, boys and girls. Get a grip.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Chabowski

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Regarding player intaction. I imagine interaction difficult, I someone runs around a corner and immedeately shoots me into the face. I prefer to keep my head down and watch a while. Guess I would be forced to let weapons speek more if 3rd person would be removed.

 

 

Crazy idea, but maybe use stealth to observe them without letting them see you?

[Ken Bean 175]

Crazy idea, but maybe use stealth to observe them without letting them see you?

 

Nonlethal encounter is something which doesn't exist?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Nonlethal encounter is something which doesn't exist?

 

You could always just do what I do. Walk up to them calmly with your weapon lowered or holstered and greet them in a calm voice. It doesn't always work, but a lot of the time it does. Helps if you're a hero.

[rossums 2190]

Yeah, 90 % want to play 1st person only, but cant, because of th remaining 10%, which is playing on 3rd person server...

Wait a minute. If those 90% would play on 1st person server, they'd probably full, right? Just do it.

 

 

Regarding player intaction. I imagine interaction difficult, I someone runns around a corner and immedeately shoots me into the face.

I shouldn't really even elicit this with a real response but I'm terribly bored so I'll bite.

90% don't want to play first person only, nowhere did I say that - what I said was the MAJORITY of players WANT to play on a 1st-person only server. ( At this point in time according to the /r/dayz Reddit poll that is 58% of all players).

Now if you look at it from a server owners position, they need players to play and there are still another 29% of those that answered the poll that prefer 3rd person compared to 1st person.

By using a 3rd-person enabled server it allows both the 1st-person and 3rd-person players to play if they switch between views (Which a lot of players currently do).

As I also mentioned, the DayZero 1st-person server are always almost full despite being less in number compared to the 3rd-person, the point is, at the moment most players just grin and bare it because all the 'big' servers/server owners tend to stick it on 3rd-person because it caters to the widest playerbase.

_

If you are running round a corner and run into someone, that's your fault - you weren't careful enough and din't scout thoroughly enough and the encounter is your punishment for not doing so - both players have a choice whether to engage or not, if one or both of them open fire who cares? That's what the game is about - you both had a quick, difficult decision to make and you both chose to attack each other.

 

"Purely looking at the polls" in the FPV "O'Doyle Rules!" threads is NOT a legitimate measure.

The only fact all these polls provide is that more FPV-only players answered the poll.

Everyone else was busy playing the game. (on their 3dp-enabled servers)

 

EDIT:

Just to be clear: I couldn't care less either way.

The squabbling though. It's pretty pathetic, boys and girls. Get a grip.

 

The only thing the polls can prove, without a doubt, is that of the players that answered it a significant amount of them would be happy with 1st-person only.

It's in the dayz subreddit, not the FPS subreddit so it's not exactly from a place where there will be an overwhelming imbalance of 1st/3rd person support.

I honestly don't care what happens either way, I will still play, but the current state of 3rd-person perspective has to be properly addressed - a player shouldn't be given a significant advantage over another purely because they like the camera perspective to be different - it isn't as significant a problem as everyone is making it out to be but it does detract a lot from the experience for many players when someone can scout you out from behind a wall with no possible way to counter it or be able to spot them back.

[Ken Bean 175]

Anyway, I think this divide in 1st person only and 3rd person enabled server was a great idea and actually works really dandy. Played on a vanilla expert server the whole day, in 1st person, most of the time alone. Got infected but have everything to cook meat. I ate round about 2 sheep, 4 goats, 2 boars, 3 or 4 cows and countles canned food. Now meat is empty but I'm still alive and full of blood as I logged out. (Is that normal that I found so many animals? Thought usually it were less.)

 

I wonder what those 60% are doing on 3rd person server.

 

Edit

Latest poll said 60%, not 90%. Apologizes.

 

Edit2

Btw, after playing a while, I'm for having 1st person only server. Note, I'm not saying 3rd person should be removed, but having those 1st person only server available also enriches the game imo.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Ken Bean

[dgeesio 1034]

He has a clear vision of immersion and gameplay. However, I think what we say indeed does effect him. And I am not sure why Dean is not removing third person immediatly without hesitation completly from the game. He knows exactly that it is immersion and combat breaking. But on the other side he knows that many many people want it. But actually that is not true, we the hardcore fans just do not want it in the game. I am not sure if he is aware of the actual situation here.

generalization much " we the hardcore fans just do not want it in the game " :lol:

 

such bs comments like that make me want to hit my head on the wall :P

 

he will be aware obviously well i hope he is and has his finger on the pulse of what is being talked about id be very worried if he hasnt looked and seen what people have been putting as its about the very game hes supposed to be building for us.

 

as for whether money will change the out come of the game it will obviously have a effect .

 

one thing they might do with third person is do nothing to start with then when the big masses buy the game then nerf it. if you brought it then what ? you brought the game . hope that doesnt happen and he  or the group behind this doesnt seem to be some kind of EA asses.

 

i personally wouldnt spend to much time on the third person or worry about it too much when there is so much more to sort out at the core.

 

Hacking

Admin abuse/tools

 

those two then camera views

[Frytek 130]

I think I have a solution.

If the camera was placed just behind the players head or really close to the character, it wouldnt be so exploitable. Or you could only look forward and up with 3rd person. If you would freelook left, right, or down while in 3rd, you would get a view from characters eyes.

[dsi24 227]

I think I have a solution.

If the camera was placed just behind the players head or really close to the character, it wouldnt be so exploitable. Or you could only look forward and up with 3rd person. If you would freelook left, right, or down while in 3rd, you would get a view from characters eyes.

It being close enough to the back of your head to not be exploitable (your shoulders would have to be at the limits of the FoV) would leave the back of your head taking up most of the screen. You wouldn't be able to watch your ass or watch where you're walking.

 

Every single solution that actually stops exploiting just makes third person as a whole undesirable, every other solution doesn't stop exploiting. It's really that simple.

[tommes 331]

Actually, the most important feature for most people when joining a server is number of players.

Good point.

I believe that many players aren't even aware of the problem or maybe just don't care because they're used to adapting to weird game mechanics and just don't question it further. People can be very ignorant. It may be like that Joker meme: as long as everything happens according to plan...

[Jamz 253]

I think I have a solution.

If the camera was placed just behind the players head or really close to the character, it wouldnt be so exploitable. Or you could only look forward and up with 3rd person. If you would freelook left, right, or down while in 3rd, you would get a view from characters eyes.

 

For this to work the camera would have to be offset and behind the player characters head. But yes otherwise it would eliminate exploits if done correctly. As I suggested earlier, fixing the camera so it is closer and unable to move above head height would stop people from being able to manipulate it to see around things, so no exploits and it could be used in conjunction with FPV. If the camera is close in enough then it won't offer any advantage over first person as the screen view is wider than the characters head in FPV.

I'm sure the team will be considering this at some point in whichever form works with what they have in mind so far.

[rossums 2190]

For this to work the camera would have to be offset and behind the player characters head. But yes otherwise it would eliminate exploits if done correctly. As I suggested earlier, fixing the camera so it is closer and unable to move above head height would stop people from being able to manipulate it to see around things, so no exploits and it could be used in conjunction with FPV. If the camera is close in enough then it won't offer any advantage over first person as the screen view is wider than the characters head in FPV.

I'm sure the team will be considering this at some point in whichever form works with what they have in mind so far.

I feel that this is a good example of how it could be implemented - this was a 'mod' in the original Arma as a tweak to 3rd-person perspective.

The camera is far back enough so it actually looks decent but when you approach (in this case) a wall, the camera stays closer to your head which means you can't use it to scan over obstacles.

[dsi24 227]

I feel that this is a good example of how it could be implemented - this was a 'mod' in the original Arma as a tweak to 3rd-person perspective.

The camera is far back enough so it actually looks decent but when you approach (in this case) a wall, the camera stays closer to your head which means you can't use it to scan over obstacles.

At 0:00 if you just turn left instead of walking forwards, bam you're seeing around the corner without any chance of anyone knowing you exist.

 

Again, if you fix the exploits, you ruin the camera. The exploits arise from what third person is.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Dsi1

[RooBurger 285]

It being close enough to the back of your head to not be exploitable (your shoulders would have to be at the limits of the FoV) would leave the back of your head taking up most of the screen. You wouldn't be able to watch your ass or watch where you're walking.

 

Every single solution that actually stops exploiting just makes third person as a whole undesirable, every other solution doesn't stop exploiting. It's really that simple.

 

My floating orb solution did both, but nobody liked it.

[Jamz 253]

I feel that this is a good example of how it could be implemented - this was a 'mod' in the original Arma as a tweak to 3rd-person perspective.

The camera is far back enough so it actually looks decent but when you approach (in this case) a wall, the camera stays closer to your head which means you can't use it to scan over obstacles.

 

This is what I feel is the way to go as well. With some tweaking, it could fix the issues being brought up.

 

If the view can't be completely fixed, then the servers should be split to accomodate either or.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Jamz

[tommes 331]

My floating orb solution did both, but nobody liked it.

For a reason.

[RooBurger 285]

For a reason.

 

uh... yeah. There's usually a reason for stuff.

[Wazza 274]

My floating orb solution did both, but nobody liked it.

floating orbs for the win

[tommes 331]

I want to be able to pick the color of my floating orb so I can make sure it makes me look fabulous!

[dgeesio 1034]

I feel that this is a good example of how it could be implemented - this was a 'mod' in the original Arma as a tweak to 3rd-person perspective.

The camera is far back enough so it actually looks decent but when you approach (in this case) a wall, the camera stays closer to your head which means you can't use it to scan over obstacles.

feels like deadspace almost :lol:

Edited September 2, 2013 by dgeesio

[aeinola 25]

I dont have time to read all the 1600+ posts on this topic. I think 3rd person view can not be completly fixed, you can improve it to be little less exploitable, thats it. I think 1st person needs to be improved so its much enjoyable. If 1st person view was fixed i would play 1st person instead of 3rd person. I said this in another topic but here goes:

1st person needs much more freedom in views. The free look (ALT) works really well at the moment so why not add more to this. For example when you are prone behind a small rock or other small obstacle you should be able to hold down a key (lets say ALT) and use your mouse to peak above the rock, not with your gun, just a peak whats behind the obstacle. This should be implemented for crouch too. You could also use it to crouch lower by moving your mouse down when holding the ALT key. The view in 1st person is too limited at the moment, every little obstacle in front of you blocks the whole view. Think about this realistically, if you are prone behind a fallen tree and want to see whats behind that you wont rise up to your knee to see, you just peak a little to stay in cover. This limitation of 1st person is why i rather play in 3rd person and live with the exploits...

 

And in addition a little off-topic:

When you are inside a tree or a bush it should be transparent to you. In real world if you hide in a bush you can move the branches and leaves little bit so you can see whats going on. For now its almost like you are blind when you are hiding in a bush.

[dsi24 227]

My floating orb solution did both, but nobody liked it.

Well yeah, it makes third person undesirable. Great if thats your goal... but why not just remove it?