First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[DemonGroover 8836]

This thread is starting to remind me of something....

 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Not knowing if someone is watching you is about as realistic as possible in a game like this. Knowing someone can be watching you from just about anywhere adds a tremendous amount of tension, something the FP guys seem to resist and just say "someone must be cheating!!!"

 

No way you can argue that looking over walls and around corners is a realistic way to portray stealthy recon in the arma engine. That would be true in a game like BF2 where the player models stick out, but it's possible to hide in plain sight in arma. Lay in a bush with Ghillie suit & SVD camo, you deserve that advantage. Climb a ladder and lay on a rooftop, not so much.

 

Why not add the ability to craft a parascope or use a piece of broken mirror to look over and around things realistically from the first person perspective.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I think Rocket's proposed ideas are good enough, until we can test them out.

 

1st for prone, a closer 3rd view camera for crouch and the current 3rd for standing.

 

Any other ideas?

[Ken Bean 175]

No way you can argue that looking over walls and around corners is a realistic way to portray stealthy recon in the arma engine. That would be true in a game like BF2 where the player models stick out, but it's possible to hide in plain sight in arma. Lay in a bush with Ghillie suit & SVD camo, you deserve that advantage. Climb a ladder and lay on a rooftop, not so much.

 

Why not add the ability to craft a parascope or use a piece of broken mirror to look over and around things realistically from the first person perspective.

 

Maybe because I wouldn't like that. I like the 3rd person view and seeing my char in the world - not the ability to camp the whole day without being seen with a mirror in the hand in 1st person perspective.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Any other ideas?

 

Hide character models that can't be seen from your characters eyes.

Edited August 28, 2013 by bad_mojo

[SmashT 10907]

Eh? I didn't mean to. I though many of us were in agreement on that. Or it could it be that multiple points of view are absolutely equal and that claiming someone is "exploiting" or "cheating" is just as offensive as calling someone a CoDkiddie?

 

I definitely don't consider it cheating, looking around/over walls is certainly exploiting the third person mechanic though and has already been acknowledged as a problem by the developers (See first post). Arguing with each other over their personal viewpoints with the current implementation is an exercise in futility though and like most such debates, they rarely result in anyone involved changing his or her point of view. Thankfully, the game isn't being developed by committee.

 

It would be good if we could discuss possible compromise/solutions instead of arguing over the current implementation given that the developers already have some plans to change it.

Edited August 28, 2013 by SmashT

[DemonGroover 8836]

Hide character models that can't be seen from your characters eyes.

 

Yeah i suppose this is a possibility but i am not sure how this would go in an MMO with up to 150 players on the server.  I can imagine that checks would have to be made constantly to see if a zombie or player is "visible" or not. Single player would probably be fine.

 

I am no programmer but it sounds like a lot of work for the system to do.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

A question.

 

Does everyone who plays 3rd person jump into 1st person during combat, or at least when firing at someone?

 

And if so, why? Surely not because it is easier to shoot in 1st person??

nope i play my entire dayz expereince in 3rd person. except for the tiny % of time when say a Z is right in my face and there are no CHs .

[gesundheitk 420]

Personally, I'd be fine with removing third person so long as I can still feel connected to my character. What I love about ArmA 3 is that when you're moving, you can see the gun in your foresight, which in turn, allows you to feel more connected and move better, or at least that's how I feel. I rarely use third person in ArmA 3 because of this. I can live without being able to see my weapon in front of me, but, in ArmA 2, it was sort of a nuisance that always made me want to switch to third person.

 

 

I also have to agree with rocket on running with third person. It feels more open, and connected, seeing how I can see all of my character's movements and such.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I definitely don't consider it cheating, looking around/over walls is certainly exploiting the third person mechanic though and has already been acknowledged as a problem by the developers (See first post). Arguing with each other over their personal viewpoints with the current implementation is an exercise in futility though and like most such debates, they rarely result in anyone involved changing his or her point of view. Thankfully, the game isn't being developed by committee.

 

It would be good if we could discuss possible compromise/solutions instead of arguing over the current implementation given that the developers already have some plans to change it.

"As a problem". I'll have to rewatch if using the third person camera is an "exploitation" or not.

 

As for compromises, I've offered quite a few.  In fact, I've offered several before the devs recent suggestion.  Most of the FP camp refuse to accept anything but removal or absolute nerf so I buck back.  That is all.  I mean no personal harm and I don't look to start flamewars.  Where's the actual discussion though?  Making zombies vanish in TP is NOT a solution, at all. 

Edited August 28, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[SMLE 39]

I think Rocket's proposed ideas are good enough, until we can test them out.

 

1st for prone, a closer 3rd view camera for crouch and the current 3rd for standing.

 

Any other ideas?

Noooo you just started it all over again , me thumps my head against a wall , this question can not be answered until we have more information like will there be different servers for the 2 play styles , if yes then there is no logical argument to change 3rd person view in any way .

So we are stuck in this endless catch 22 talking about if's but's and maybe's .

Choice something some people are scared of .

[DemonGroover 8836]

I remind people that Rockets own words on the matter are:

 

Rocket elaborated on the subject a bit today after touching on it in one of the Gamescom interviews here

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.
It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Q:Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..
I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

 

We understand that we are not going to agree on what is better, more immersive etc but that argument should now be dead. Why flog a dead horse?

 

Lets get some ideas on ways to make 1st/3rd better rather than continue this merry-go-round.  I am getting dizzy.

[SMLE 39]

Yeah i suppose this is a possibility but i am not sure how this would go in an MMO with up to 150 players on the server.  I can imagine that checks would have to be made constantly to see if a zombie or player is "visible" or not. Single player would probably be fine.

 

I am no programmer but it sounds like a lot of work for the system to do.

I would guess the additional package traffic would not be something the devs would be happy about .

cheers

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Noooo you just started it all over again , me thumps my head against a wall , this question can not be answered until we have more information like will there be different servers for the 2 play styles , if yes then there is no logical argument to change 3rd person view in any way .

So we are stuck in this endless catch 22 talking about if's but's and maybe's .

Choice something some people are scared of .

 

I'll admit choice is scaring me. This is the first time I've read Rockets words and felt scared of what it will mean for the future of DayZ. If he gives into the majority over this, is that attitude going to carry over into other aspects of the game?

 

Two play styles as you call it, would be a terrible thing for DayZ. It would divide development focus and divide players. I believe the best thing for DayZ is for everyone to be held to the exact same standard, in the exact same world.

 

Feel free to disagree, cause I know you do.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I remind people that Rockets own words on the matter are:

 

 

We understand that we are not going to agree on what is better, more immersive etc but that argument should now be dead. Why flog a dead horse?

 

Lets get some ideas on ways to make 1st/3rd better rather than continue this merry-go-round.  I am getting dizzy.

 

 

Again, I've suggested a couple.  I suggested the stance camera long before this but have thus far refused to toot my own dirty horn.  Perhaps I wasted my time in the other short lived thread but I've offered at least two completely valid suggestions, one which mirrors rocket's most recent revelations (old to me), and another which is hardwired completely to the use of the weapon.  To repeat, if the weapon is on your back, you get third.  If the weapon is equiped but in the down position, you get a zoomed in third.  If it's up in a ready to fire position, you're forced into first.  

 

That is by far the most fair compromise I can think of.  Medical examinations and travel can still be held in third person but any actual firing of a weapon MUST be done in first.  As long as there's a delay in the switching from unarmed to armed then this will work for the most part.  Once players realize they can team up with others and use an unarmed guy as a scout we'll see more issues.  That's normal.  There is NO WAY around third person being used to view around corners unless it's removed, something i've personally advocated for if a complete and utter butchering of the TP camera is going to take place.  I also said, prior to seeing rocket say so, that attempting to "fix" the camera will be insanely hard and doing it in the right way will take quite a bit of effort.  It's far easier to just ditch the system entirely and piss off a huge portion of players, including streamers, for a system that pretty much any mainstream gamer will appreciate.

 

That is my opinion.  It has been since I picked this game up.  

[SMLE 39]

I remind people that Rockets own words on the matter are:

 

 

We understand that we are not going to agree on what is better, more immersive etc but that argument should now be dead. Why flog a dead horse?

 

Lets get some ideas on ways to make 1st/3rd better rather than continue this merry-go-round.  I am getting dizzy.

The show isn't over until the fat lady sings , Mr Hall has only heard the 1st person views point of view as shown in most of this thread hopefully he may see this thread right to the end and take into account what the majority enjoy .

cheers guys whatever happens enjoy your gameing .

P.S. Choice is good

[Ken Bean 175]

There's no way for me to run once across the map in *totaly immersed 1st person mode only* without getting very annoyed by it. Maybe it's cool in certain situations but brevity is the soul of wit. In the long run, when I try to imagine that it would never be possible to switch into 3rd person again, the game would lose half of its sexyness.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SMLE 39]

I'll admit choice is scaring me. This is the first time I've read Rockets words and felt scared of what it will mean for the future of DayZ. If he gives into the majority over this, is that attitude going to carry over into other aspects of the game?

 

Two play styles as you call it, would be a terrible thing for DayZ. It would divide development focus and divide players. I believe the best thing for DayZ is for everyone to be held to the exact same standard, in the exact same world.

 

Feel free to disagree, cause I know you do.

Wrong I agree with you in a perfect world where we could have totally real first person view it would great , bring on oculus rift , but we are where we are so to please both camps I and others proposed a compromise which is choice , hopefully Mr Hall will consider it .

also It does not divide focus it is already in game , its how the game is set up now .

but enough im sure you all know by now Choice is good so ill leave you to catch 22 :)

cheers

Edited August 28, 2013 by SMLE

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

The show isn't over until the fat lady sings , Mr Hall has only heard the 1st person views point of view as shown in most of this thread hopefully he may see this thread right to the end and take into account what the majority enjoy .

cheers guys whatever happens enjoy your gameing .

P.S. Choice is good

 

 

I have to agree. I don't care how people in Cherno and Elektro kill each other as long as we get an actual SURVIVAL game.  (had to caps that)

 

If people want to camp doorways or rooftops, it's not really going to ruin my fun.  I just wish the FP camp would try to foresee the problems they're going to face. INB4 further nerf demands.

[iashford 73]

I'll admit choice is scaring me. This is the first time I've read Rockets words and felt scared of what it will mean for the future of DayZ. If he gives into the majority over this, is that attitude going to carry over into other aspects of the game?

Two play styles as you call it, would be a terrible thing for DayZ. It would divide development focus and divide players. I believe the best thing for DayZ is for everyone to be held to the exact same standard, in the exact same world.

Feel free to disagree, cause I know you do.

Well... I really don't understand your logic. You are GETTING first person only servers. No one is forcing you to not play on them. If you can't find people on first person only servers when standalone is released, then you know what most people desire... And who are you to tell them they can't have what they desire? I mean, you can't really complain cause you've got what you want as well... The only difference is, we won't be punished by your hypocrisy and selfishness.

Seriously, have an equal amount of first person and third person official dedicated servers and be done with it. The server owners of private servers have every right to decide what they want, just like you do and just like I do. It's not hard people. I really feel like peoples entitlement is over complicating things

Edited August 28, 2013 by I.Ash

[SmashT 10907]

There's no way for me to run once across the map in *totaly immersed 1st person mode only* without getting very annoyed by it. Maybe it's cool in certain situations but brevity is the soul of wit. In the long run, when I try to imagine that it would never be possible to switch into 3rd person again, the game would lose half of its sexyness.

 

Third person view isn't being removed, that's been made pretty clear. The devs have plans to change how third person view works to allow it's legitimate uses while limiting the current exploits associated with it, how they go about that is the question.

Edited August 28, 2013 by SmashT

[big_t 66]

How about this:

 

In 1rst person have a magic toggle button that zooms you out a bit to see more of your surrounding and make things less intense for the intense adverse. (I know there is the " - " button but no one seems to know about that.)

 

In 3rd person lower the camera height to avoid being able to see over hills and walls

 

In 3rd person lock the free look, (or when you use free look: it snaps into first person)

 

 

Problem solved :)

 

so my solution deals with making it easier for 3rd person players to use 1rst person by having a zoom out option to help with situational awareness and comfort over long durations, and also drastically reduces the the 3rd person exploits.

 

 

agree? If not please explain.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

 

 

Perhaps there needs to be 3 levels of servers

 

Hardcore  -1st only

Normal -  A modified 3rd enabled (ie 1st for prone, closer camera)

Easy - 3rd person as is

 

Lets just state it how it is and let the people make their choice since you seem to be the great advocate of democracy.

 

Fine by me!

 

Depending on how 3dp has been changed (I made some suggestions to remove the periscope effects in a separate message) most likely normal will be the way: if the implentation is crap then easy.

 

Choice is good because makes you think, whereas bullshit baffles brains. Problem solved? All the hipsters can relax?

 

_Anubis_

Edited August 28, 2013 by _Anubis_

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Well... I really don't understand your logic. You are GETTING first person only servers. No one is forcing you to not play on them. If you can't find people on first person only servers when standalone is released, then you know what most people desire... And who are you to tell them they can't have what they desire? I mean, you can't really complain cause you've got what you want as well... The only difference is, we won't be punished by your hypocrisy and selfishness.

Seriously, have an equal amount of first person and third person official dedicated servers and be done with it. The server owners of private servers have every right to decide what they want, just like you do and just like I do. It's not hard people. I really feel like peoples entitlement is over complicating things

 

It's just a discussion. No need to get so worked up over a disagreement in game design. You believe choice is a good thing for Dayz, I don't.

[iashford 73]

It's just a discussion. No need to get so worked up over a disagreement in game design. You believe choice is a good thing for Dayz, I don't.

Don't mistaken me, I'm not getting worked up. But seriously, you don't want consenting adults to make their own decision...? Jeez, its like the australian game classifications all over again :p I just don't understand why you don't want people to play their own way. Given that there is going to be first person only servers, the option to completely ignore the people who have made the TPV choice, etc. why do you not want people to have choice? Is that not like saying 'I don't want there to be survival horror games because I believe shooters should be the only genre available'? I'm genuinely asking because I really want to know what your answer is when you have the option not to expose yourself to anothe persons choice.

Edited August 28, 2013 by I.Ash