Concerning the KoS mentality and the value of life: unique skills

[Xeva 12]

Introduction

 

Just to get started, this isn't a thread dedicated to nerfing the ever-loving balls off banditry. This is simply a suggestion to make the value of human life greater and for bandits to think twice about shooting that random survivor running down the street.

 

Note: Similar things have been beaten to death already. This, I think, is different. Or maybe I'm just a noob at the search function.

 

The Suggestion

 

Currently the only thing worth anything is gear. Everybody can do anything given they have what they need to do it. This includes everything from giving somebody a blood bag to fixing a helicopter one bullet away from showering everybody nearby with shrapnel. While the jack-of-all-trades thing is very convenient, with it no single person is better than another aside from gunplay. Hence the conversion of such a large part of this community to banditry. 

 

I'm not suggesting any kind of leveling up system. Instead, I believe for life to have value everybody must be unique. If everybody was as intelligent as Einstein, Einstein wouldn't be worth much would he?

 

There are many important things that must be done to survive in DayZ. Currently, as mentioned before, everybody can do all of this with ease. In real life this is not the case. I sure as hell don't know how to repair a car, let alone a helicopter. If I tried to give somebody a blood bag I'd probably end up accidentally stabbing them in the jugular. For this reason different survivors should start out with different knowledge, be especially skilled in a particular practice, and be able to teach others the basics of that practice. This provides a necessity for player interaction.

 

Before you go down to the comments and start raging over not being able to put on a bandage immediately, these skills don't necessarily apply to basic things like that. For example, you can loot a supermarket for food but you don't really know how to carve up a boar for its meat. You can apply a bandage but you don't know how to make a disinfectant for your wound. However, people who do know and are experts at this can teach you how to do it.

 

To further elaborate on this idea, the skills could all have a system in which you progressively get better at it through practice. For example, say you start out with knowing how to gut animals for meat steaks. However, another survivor needs a blood bag. You currently don't have the ability to administer a blood bag. The survivor does know, and quickly teaches you how to do it. Your are now a novice at administering blood bags. After bagging the survivor, you have 10% progress towards being adept at administering blood bags.

 

For clarity, here's the "levels" of skills:

 

Untrained: 0% success rate

Novice: 60% success rate

Adept: 90% success rate

Expert: 100% success rate, able to train others to novice.

(numbers debatable)

 

Once you train all your skills to being Adept or Expert, congratulations! You are now an ordinary survivor who doesn't need to make interactions with players anymore. Welcome back to your old style of play. Except now getting here is much harder, and not dying is more of a priority than ever. When a group of bandits takes you hostage, you're gonna wanna shout through direct that you're that jack-of-all-trades, right?

 

Conclusion

 

What really makes me enthusiastic about these skills is that it opens up so many possibilities for trade, deception, and making friends. Perhaps somebody has a DMR and another guy has the ability to fix a helicopter. They could make a trade out of that, or possibly even decide they like each other and team up.

 

On the other hand, somebody might say they have an ability, get the other to come out of hiding, then shoot him for his gear. It's technically shooting on sight, but not before some interaction has made its way in there. It's a situation in which both sides have an equal opportunity to change the outcome. If the guy suspects it's a trap, he can try to save his own life by running for fighting. It's not a deathmatch.

 

Combined with the damaging of items when you shoot somebody for gear, the motivation to let somebody live to see what he has to offer is pretty astounding, at least in my opinion.

 

Side Notes

 

This topic is highly debatable. I encourage discussion and discourage unintelligent ranting. If you don't like it, say why not. I want to hear your opinions. Despite my apparent fascination with this specific idea, I'm open to many suggestions and am willing to tailor this to you guys' input.

 

Which skills are automatically known and which skills you can learn is debatable. I haven't really thought about it for lack of input from the community at the time of writing this thread. Also, what skills actually exist is currently a mystery (Until the SA drops we can't be sure of everything the devs have put in). As such, I've only mentioned blood bags and repairing vehicles as an example.

 

I realize it's highly likely this type of thing has probably been beaten to death but I have yet to see much actual discussion going on about it. However, should the community speak, so shall this thread enter the great beyond, never returning from the mystical land that is the graveyard.

 

Tl;dr

 

Skills you can learn from somebody to encourage player interaction.

[Skat3rat 1633]

I think this is kind of what Rocket is aiming for in SA.  He doesn't want a skill base like a mmo but he does want players to be more specialized in certain things than another player.  Atleast that's what I think he means.  I could be wrong.

 

I think your idea fits for SA.  Some changes and tweaks are probably needed for it but your idea seems like it's heading in the right direction.

[Frytek 130]

The idea is kind of a suggestion for levels. Plus the teaching thingie would be exploitet as hell. And who knows, maybe it would encourage KoS even more if people would be thinking of losing their skills.

 

So at the way you presented idea here...I have to say no.

[delta5 237]

I only clicked this thread because I thought you were talking about the user KoS.

[DanJZ0404 0]

I would like to see this, but as Frytek said, it could encourage KoS even more. Not much would change, because you can't trust each other. It's a distrust-distrust relationship as it stands. The values of the Internet would need to be enforced. I don't mean "OMG U KILD M3 HAXOR NUBR", I mean what the Internet originally was. Instead of "Fuck you" it was genuine help when someone asked. The Internet as it stands is the problem. It doesn't help that 99% of people on the web feel the need to say things like "umadbro?" and post thousands of cat pictures.

 

In conclusion:

The Internet is the Internet's problem. The Internet is DayZ's problem. Something I didn't mention in the body was that everyone bitches and gripes and moans about getting KoSed, then KoSes themselves minutes after. The only time I ever got KoSed was when I spawned in late at night next to a player. He likely shot me because I scared the literal crap out of him.

Edited August 20, 2013 by DanJZ0404

[King of kong 1117]

As long as it's not to RPG-ish, I'm all for this idea, not everybody is going to know how to do different things, it'd encourage TP if everybody had different skills.

[Xeva 12]

I only clicked this thread because I thought you were talking about the user KoS.

 

Yet you decide to reply to it why...?

 

Well, I guess the least I could do is thank you for the bump. Even though I'm really just bumping my own thread with another useless response... Fuck me right?

[Xeva 12]

Plus the teaching thingie would be exploitet as hell.

 

I don't follow. Any explanation? Does it concern big clans just teaching eachother skills and being set to go? Or respawning to get a more favorable skill?

 

I would like to see this, but as Frytek said, it could encourage KoS even more. Not much would change, because you can't trust each other. It's a distrust-distrust relationship as it stands.

 

The point isn't to get people to group up for a long time. It's to get people to interact instead of just shooting when you see somebody 50m away. You only have to trust that you can do a trade and not shoot eachother for the 30 seconds you're not behind cover spying on the guy in 3rd person. If you do shoot the other guy, you don't get the skills that he may have. All you get is his damaged loot (confirmed for SA for anybody wondering). If you have a lot of skills, yes. You may get jumpy and shoot on sight. However, the damaged loot you get may not be as valuable as the pristine DMR you get from the guy after giving him the ability to repair a helicopter. This really makes trading a real factor in gameplay.

[AP_Norris 1018]

If we did get skills, I would want this.

Maybe, there are rare books aswell to put you straight to novice? A player should specialise in atleast one field and have expert on it IMO, maybe weapon operation could be a skill, and as guns get more and more complex going out of bolt action and double barrel shotguns you have to have knowledge of weapon operation to keep them clean.

I personally think people would struggle more with disassembling an LMG, cleaning it and putting all the parts back the way they were, even if its only down to the top and bottom receiver and barrel people that have never picked up a gun and have no idea how something can shoot fully automatic will struggle to apply common sense when reassembling.

[enforcer1975 1111]

It would be great if your character would have a random background. Then again if someone doesn't like it he just commits suicide until he gets his former space marine. I hope he doesn't add combatant backgrounds.

[AP_Norris 1018]

^ why not just introduce a system where you must wait an hour before receiving different skills after a death.

Oh no I'm not master chief! Runs into zombies wat I'm the same.

Finally 1hr later, but I already have all this stuff and its barely worth it... Eh eh? Would work IMO

[Skat3rat 1633]

It would be great if your character would have a random background. Then again if someone doesn't like it he just commits suicide until he gets his former space marine. I hope he doesn't add combatant backgrounds.

 

I actually think it would be more cool to choose your characters background.  That way it feels more like your own.

[AP_Norris 1018]

I actually think it would be more cool to choose your characters background.  That way it feels more like your own.

That's another way of doing it.

It's not like you go to school and choose all the science classes just to become a carpenter by random chance.

You have a choice in life... So why not the game?

[enforcer1975 1111]

I actually think it would be more cool to choose your characters background.  That way it feels more like your own.

 

 

That's another way of doing it.

It's not like you go to school and choose all the science classes just to become a carpenter by random chance.

You have a choice in life... So why not the game?

 

Well that's true but we all know what will happen...You throw 3D6 until you get a strength of 18(00)

 

On the other hand to prevent players from not taking a skillset they have to play at least x hours until they can either choose to get shot by a friend or foe or eaten by a zed to get a new life and a random skillset. I know you have a choice in life but it's pretty difficult to realize in a game. Almost everyone wants the munchkin skills.

[Xeva 12]

^ why not just introduce a system where you must wait an hour before receiving different skills after a death.

Oh no I'm not master chief! Runs into zombies wat I'm the same.

Finally 1hr later, but I already have all this stuff and its barely worth it... Eh eh? Would work IMO

 

That's a good idea. At some point once I get enough suggestions like this I'll update the OP to include them all.

 

Maybe, there are rare books aswell to put you straight to novice? A player should specialise in atleast one field and have expert on it IMO, maybe weapon operation could be a skill, and as guns get more and more complex going out of bolt action and double barrel shotguns you have to have knowledge of weapon operation to keep them clean.

 

Another great idea with the books. Adds a way for people who like being ghosts to progress, albeit rather slowly. As for weapon operation, that could definitely be a skill. I think I already mentioned having expert in a random skill on spawn, but maybe I didn't clarify that enough.

[AP_Norris 1018]

Well that's true but we all know what will happen...You throw 3D6 until you get a strength of 18(00)

 

On the other hand to prevent players from not taking a skillset they have to play at least x hours until they can either choose to get shot by a friend or foe or eaten by a zed to get a new life and a random skillset. I know you have a choice in life but it's pretty difficult to realize in a game. Almost everyone wants the munchkin skills.

I already said that!

^ why not just introduce a system where you must wait an hour before receiving different skills after a death.

Oh no I'm not master chief! Runs into zombies wat I'm the same.

Finally 1hr later, but I already have all this stuff and its barely worth it... Eh eh? Would work IMO

[DemonGroover 8836]

Hmmm as soon as i see skills mentioned i am instantly against it.  There are just too many games out there like that. 

 

However the idea of learning something is somewhat appealing. 

 

However if this learning is just based off how much of an act you do then we will see the MMO BS of grinding where players sit at a car in the forest and remove and replace tyres for 8 hours straight so they get expert at it. I wouldnt want that.

 

I understand you are trying to push more interaction (and thus lower Kos) and this is a decent idea.

 

Perhaps we just need to spawn as someone, mechanic, pilot, doctor etc?  And if you die within the first 30 minutes you come back as a bag lady.

[AP_Norris 1018]

Hmmm as soon as i see skills mentioned i am instantly against it.  There are just too many games out there like that. 

 

However the idea of learning something is somewhat appealing. 

 

However if this learning is just based off how much of an act you do then we will see the MMO BS of grinding where players sit at a car in the forest and remove and replace tyres for 8 hours straight so they get expert at it. I wouldnt want that.

 

I understand you are trying to push more interaction (and thus lower Kos) and this is a decent idea.

 

Perhaps we just need to spawn as someone, mechanic, pilot, doctor etc?  And if you die within the first 30 minutes you come back as a bag lady.

But everyone would just suicide so they can be bag lady :)

[Xeva 12]

However if this learning is just based off how much of an act you do then we will see the MMO BS of grinding where players sit at a car in the forest and remove and replace tyres for 8 hours straight so they get expert at it. I wouldnt want that.

 

It's a very real concern but I think there's a pretty simple way around that. If you remove a car part you don't get exp for replacing it for the next 15 or 30 minutes. Simple as that (even though I'm no coder so I have no idea what this entails). 

 

Perhaps we just need to spawn as someone, mechanic, pilot, doctor etc?  And if you die within the first 30 minutes you come back as a bag lady.

 

Well if people find my original idea too radical I guess I can always fall back on this :P

 

I'll just always spawn as a bag lady.

[OldMoto 2]

 

Currently the only thing worth anything is gear. Everybody can do anything given they have what they need to do it. This includes everything from giving somebody a blood bag to fixing a helicopter one bullet away from showering everybody nearby with shrapnel. While the jack-of-all-trades thing is very convenient, with it no single person is better than another aside from gunplay. Hence the conversion of such a large part of this community to banditry. 

 

I'm not suggesting any kind of leveling up system. Instead, I believe for life to have value everybody must be unique. If everybody was as intelligent as Einstein, Einstein wouldn't be worth much would he?

 

There are many important things that must be done to survive in DayZ. Currently, as mentioned before, everybody can do all of this with ease. In real life this is not the case. I sure as hell don't know how to repair a car, let alone a helicopter. If I tried to give somebody a blood bag I'd probably end up accidentally stabbing them in the jugular. For this reason different survivors should start out with different knowledge, be especially skilled in a particular practice, and be able to teach others the basics of that practice. This provides a necessity for player interaction.

 

Before you go down to the comments and start raging over not being able to put on a bandage immediately, these skills don't necessarily apply to basic things like that. For example, you can loot a supermarket for food but you don't really know how to carve up a boar for its meat. You can apply a bandage but you don't know how to make a disinfectant for your wound. However, people who do know and are experts at this can teach you how to do it.

 

To further elaborate on this idea, the skills could all have a system in which you progressively get better at it through practice. For example, say you start out with knowing how to gut animals for meat steaks. However, another survivor needs a blood bag. You currently don't have the ability to administer a blood bag. The survivor does know, and quickly teaches you how to do it. Your are now a novice at administering blood bags. After bagging the survivor, you have 10% progress towards being adept at administering blood bags.

 

For clarity, here's the "levels" of skills:

 

Untrained: 0% success rate

Novice: 60% success rate

Adept: 90% success rate

Expert: 100% success rate, able to train others to novice.

(numbers debatable)

 

This topic is highly debatable. I encourage discussion and discourage unintelligent ranting. If you don't like it, say why not. I want to hear your opinions. Despite my apparent fascination with this specific idea, I'm open to many suggestions and am willing to tailor this to you guys' input.

 

Which skills are automatically known and which skills you can learn is debatable. I haven't really thought about it for lack of input from the community at the time of writing this thread. Also, what skills actually exist is currently a mystery (Until the SA drops we can't be sure of everything the devs have put in). As such, I've only mentioned blood bags and repairing vehicles as an example.

 

I realize it's highly likely this type of thing has probably been beaten to death but I have yet to see much actual discussion going on about it. However, should the community speak, so shall this thread enter the great beyond, never returning from the mystical land that is the graveyard.

 

 

I try to explain myself in my crappy english :-) and i'm at work so i don't have much time to write now..

 

I hope the developers of the standalone put a skill system because i think a game like dayz is more like a roleplay game rather quake 3 arena with zombies... but at least a skill system is a level system :)

 

Maybe somewhat like a primary and secondary skill that you choose when you born, where the more you practice the more you take skill point to invest - by the way i think the same skill system must be applied even to guns because in real life you cannot kill a human size target at 1000 mt without proper train ;-) - that you can spend at the end of the day

 

It's something like the "you should rest and meditate..." morrowind-style if you know what i mean ;)

 

Example of skill list should be:

 

- military train (assault rifles, snipers and anti-personnel)

- civilian (pistols, semi-autos, shotguns, carbines)

- driving air/sea vessels

- hunting/fishing/farming

- medical and first aid

- mechanical (build/repair)

 

Stats:

A basic strength/intelligence/agility that influence the skill above;

A healt system more complex than infected/not infected status - for example, you must eat some vegetables to live healty, not only beans :-)

 

 

KoS:

I think is discouraged by adding more game complexity - at least dayz is a mod for a FPS game and people playing FPS games want that.

People like play roleplay games like different styles of play, at least in my experience i see that.

 

 

Just my 2 cents :-)

 

Ciao,

OldMoto

[AP_Norris 1018]

^ Pls no intelligence stats intelligence aswell as applied tactics should be determined by the guy watching the screen not the in game character. I don't want in game hints because my character thinks he's smart and says... maybe if I take the high ground as a flanking position like those silly games that don't bother with just giving you a waypoint :/ but instead they make it seem like the guy your playing is a complete different person :(

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Yeah but... lets say i a pride myself of being knowledgeable in some survival fields, shouldn't i be able to use my knowledge in the game? Why does it has to be an ingame stat?

[OldMoto 2]

^ Pls no intelligence stats intelligence aswell as applied tactics should be determined by the guy watching the screen not the in game character. I don't want in game hints because my character thinks he's smart and says... maybe if I take the high ground as a flanking position like those silly games that don't bother with just giving you a waypoint :/ but instead they make it seem like the guy your playing is a complete different person :(

 

I like the simplicity and emergent gameplay of dayz, i'm just thinking about more things to do, in more ways.

So I'm thinking about something like "doomsday preppers" than "lord of the rings" ;-)

 

In my thoughts intelligence stats has only influence on skills or can be a requisite for something "special":

You cannot acquire knowledge drinking potions like a RPG fantasy game, you are not a skilled sniper only because you find a .50 caliber.

The more you do the more you learn, and with more intelligence you can simply gain skill more fast, or repair special things

 

For example, almost anyone can change a car wheel.

But you need some mechanic skills to fix an engine, and if you want to fix that military heli with only spare parts you scavenge from another type of hely you need to be something like a skilled engineer - so you can require x skill point and x point intelligence to repair that kind of high-level vehicle.

 

Everyone can pull a trigger - but a .50 caliber is more proficient in the hands of a trained user, so if you have more skill is more like you land a critical hit at distance, or you can reload fast... a gun is not so simple to manage if you never practice shooting, even a 9x19 pistol can be hard for the novice - i see many first time shooters unable to hit something big like a 15'' LCD screen at 25 mt with a 9 mm pistol.

 

Same thing for other stats like strength and agility, and skills like hunting and fishing i mentioned before.

More strength and you need only a hit to slay a zombie with a crowbar.

You can try to catch small game even if you never hunt in your life, but sure it's more difficult to do.

If you never butch and cook a rabbit you gain only +500 blood instead +1000 when you eat it

 

 

Skills are the best things to have for survive in a harsh environment like z apocalypse.

Sure you need tools too, but skills are more important and more hard to get.

 

I don't care about humanity system, you can live by hunting 4-legged or 2-legged animals, the choice is yours :)

You cannot understand if one is good or bad from the clothes.

 

The more you live, the more you know, and if you die you lose everything, not only everything you own, but everything you know.

 

So if you die you can't simply ride cherno or elektro in an half hour to regain basic equipment, find a couple of wheels an engine and a fueltank part, fixin that car spawn north of balota in 10 second and running to NW airfield to snipe someone cause now you have many thing to do before that ;-)

[geryon 180]

In world where there are limited resources any other player immediately becomes your competitor or burden on you.  Thus killing someone even unarmed becomes justified.  This is because that person though not a threat at the moment is another strain on what you consider your resources (not necessarily true with the game mechanics but let's say if this was real).  Also while breathing that person can become a threat in the future so the option to remove that person now is a very viable play.

 

That's why on chance encounters I don't have a problem with players choosing the KOS option because it continues to setback that person's ability to prosper and survive.

 

I'm not saying there won't be cooperation and communities but even on private servers people still tend to KOS outside of their group.  It will always be us vs them. Thus I think the notion we should create game mechanics to discourage KOS is unrealistic.  

 

If our world became the shit I'm pretty confident it will be dog eat dog.  Sure there will be rare altruistic moments but for most of us we won't be able to afford being nice and good.  Everybody will be on the same side, their own.

 

Can't remember the documentary I watch but it simulated what would happen if US had a pandemic.  It predicted that it would cause mass anarchy and cities would be very dangerous.  It would be ruled by sociopaths, psychotics and people who have become feral.  Though not an entirely accurate representation hill campers and bandits running around the city shooting fresh spawns with a double barrel simulates the madness cities would be.

 

I like the way it is.  Almost everyone in dayz will not be your friend.  They do not want you to be their equal. Thus cherish the moments when you do find a kindred spirit that you can bond with.  Since IMO these will be rare moments in a real world of chaos.

 

[Xeva 12]

 

In world where there are limited resources any other player immediately becomes your competitor or burden on you.  Thus killing someone even unarmed becomes justified.  This is because that person though not a threat at the moment is another strain on what you consider your resources (not necessarily true with the game mechanics but let's say if this was real).  Also while breathing that person can become a threat in the future so the option to remove that person now is a very viable play.

 

 

That's why on chance encounters I don't have a problem with players choosing the KOS option because it continues to setback that person's ability to prosper and survive.

 

 

I'm not saying there won't be cooperation and communities but even on private servers people still tend to KOS outside of their group.  It will always be us vs them. Thus I think the notion we should create game mechanics to discourage KOS is unrealistic.  

 

 

If our world became the shit I'm pretty confident it will be dog eat dog.  Sure there will be rare altruistic moments but for most of us we won't be able to afford being nice and good.  Everybody will be on the same side, their own.

 

 

Can't remember the documentary I watch but it simulated what would happen if US had a pandemic.  It predicted that it would cause mass anarchy and cities would be very dangerous.  It would be ruled by sociopaths, psychotics and people who have become feral.  Though not an entirely accurate representation hill campers and bandits running around the city shooting fresh spawns with a double barrel simulates the madness cities would be.

 

 

I like the way it is.  Almost everyone in dayz will not be your friend.  They do not want you to be their equal. Thus cherish the moments when you do find a kindred spirit that you can bond with.  Since IMO these will be rare moments in a real world of chaos.

 

Very poetically done, fine sir. However, you miss one major concept. It doesn't matter whether or not you kill an unarmed person to prevent them from getting at your "resources". In reality all you're doing is wasting that guy's time. All he has to do is click a couple buttons to respawn and bam, he's at it taking your shit again. Banditry is the simple art of killing somebody for enjoyment or his gear. Nothing more (for most people). At least in my eyes killing somebody to prevent their "prosperity" and having fun at the game is pretty sociopathic.

 

Also, I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a zombie apocalypse in real life with DayZ being the model, most people, after having figured out they're immune, would just pick up assault rifles and kill zombies all day. They wouldn't kill each other, no. Why? Because killing somebody who's immune to a virus that's killed most of the population of the world is like launching your nuclear arsenal at Russia just for shits and giggles. You're basically just killing yourself and your community for no real purpose.