Most of the suggestions for reducing KoS

[Antjenks 14]

Most of the suggestions for reducing KoS wont work because they focus on wither punishing death, punishing killing or just making the game harder.

 

The long and short of it is this, Gear is more valuable than life currently.

His gear is worth more than his life, I'll kill him for it.

My gear is worth more than his life, I'll kill him to protect it. 

 

Until someones life is worth more, things will stay the same. Making the game harder wont change the relative value of life and gear, adding things that encourage co-operation (Not punish being solo, there's a difference) will help tip the balance.

 

I don't want KoS gone altogether, I don't want bandits gone. They add something to the game you just can't get elsewhere. But seeing reasons to co-operate and more players co-operating is something I do want to see.

 

 

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

I'm confused about the message? Are you suggesting something that I'm *probably* missing? Or are you merely pointing out that the community has tackled this age old dilemma at the wrong angle?

[dulix11 731]

I think he means we are going about it wrong...I think.

[Antjenks 14]

Sorry I wasn't clear, yes I'm saying people are approaching it wrong. The key issue is the value of someones gear vs the value of their life. 

[Rage VG 4033]

This is a better "KoS" post than most of other ones, simply because you're looking to encourage co-operation, not discourage solo play.

[Antjenks 14]

I want to see what people think, I hadn't intended for this to be a suggestion thread but if any good ideas pop up here, maybe they can be refined and posted in the suggestions forum later on.

 

The tricky thing about encouraging co-operative play, is you want to encourage and not force it. Make it so you -have- to work together and people will resent it.

 

I don't have any good suggestions myself right now, but I want to see people on the right track. Though if anyone disagrees with my reasoning they should feel free to post and explain why =)

[applejaxc 2500]

The problem is, the more that surviving becomes difficult, the more equipment will be more valuable. Rocket is never going to hit a life-more-important point.

[Antjenks 14]

The problem is, the more that surviving becomes difficult, the more equipment will be more valuable. Rocket is never going to hit a life-more-important point.

 

This is why I'm advocating finding a solution that isn't "Make zombies harder, make it harder to survive" As I understand, Origins has clan strongholds and an NPC city with great loot. Both which require a group to succeed? While I'm not saying these must be added they do illustrate ways to improve co-operation without just ramping the difficulty of the game or punishing people for not being co-operative.

[Shadow Man 142]

I'm not so sure about other countries, but if the apocalypse came to the UK you could walk for days and not find much more than a shotgun in a farm. Go to a city and you might start to find something better but they wouldn't be laying all over the place.

 

If you fill any game with guns and let the players loose with them then it seems pretty obvious what they'll do with them.

 

Its the old PVP v PVE argument in the end. The two do not co-exist easily. If DayZ is a survival game then really it should be PVE, in which case the environment is the zeds, disease, starvation etc. Usually as soon as you mention this you get a barrage of people saying "DayZ is PVP whether you like it or not!"

 

The OP is right, gear is more valuable than life, if you take out alot of the guns then it tips the balance the other way a bit. The alternative is to make ammo very rare, which is more likely and more realistic.

 

Don't get me wrong, the fear of being killed by players is crucial to the atmosphere of the game. But as long as its as simple as pulling the trigger then nothing will change.

 

Somehow players need to be in a situation where they depend on other players (friends or strangers) for survival. The player has to make the choice that they are better off not killing this person because of x,y and z. But that is pretty much PVE.

 

It could lead to different end results though. It could end up destroying the very thing that makes the game great. Or it could balance out perfectly.

 

For anything to change though, the game would have to be designed to make choices have consequences, without punishing playstyle directly. Choosing to be a bandit should really be a completely different in-game existence to being a friendly player. A true bandit without the help of a group would have to have different struggles based on their chosen lifestyle compared to a friendly player.

 

The more I think about it though, the more I feel that the bandit as type of person would not really exist. Any survivor could be considered dangerous if they found a weapon and were going to starve.

 

Another gripe of mine is perma-death not really being that permanent. Starting again should mean you lose a lot of... something? Like starting a new world in minecraft and having to find all that diamond again... More than just doing the same old run to an airfield to find a gun.

[applejaxc 2500]

"make it harder to survive" 

Wow. You really didn't understand my post at all, did you?

The harder the game, the more valuable the loot.

 

[sasrecon 133]

This is why I'm advocating finding a solution that isn't "Make zombies harder, make it harder to survive" As I understand, Origins has clan strongholds and an NPC city with great loot. Both which require a group to succeed? While I'm not saying these must be added they do illustrate ways to improve co-operation without just ramping the difficulty of the game or punishing people for not being co-operative.

 

They don't require teamwork, just cunning.I see your point - however what you're suggesting will basically end up as groups of players fighting other groups or stragglers they encounter i.e. TvT, unless you're lucky enough to encounter a hero clan :P and in the end, once they've raided the strongholds these groups will just go around parading their gear killing on sight anything they see with their high-tier equipment out of boredom, however if you give the cunning lone wolves a chance to hide in the shadows of villages under the cover of the more hardcore zombies, the groups/bandits will find it harder to get to you without attracting a load of attention.

 

Just imagine a scenario in a movie where two people are tied down in a school and one of them originally wanted to kill the other one for whatever reason, a conversation sparks and the survivor ends up convincing the bandit that a gunshot will swarm the school alleys with zombies, and with the new knockdown the bandit wouldn't stand a chance to get out without teaming-up.

 

Hope this explained my point, although it's not a way Rocket can make life more valuable, however you yourself can lever your surroundings if Rocket gives you the opportunity e.g. more difficult zombies.

Edited August 10, 2013 by R3con

[FaustianQ 8]

Here is the issue, even if you add activities that require several people, you'll still have KoS, since players will then clan up and become even more insular. KoS will continue to exist for DayZ because we can communicate and organize outside the game, and we as gamers will continue to metagame.

 

Unless there is a real, negative reason to not KoS, it will continue regardless because it's the most rational choice available.

[Antjenks 14]

Wow. You really didn't understand my post at all, did you?

The harder the game, the more valuable the loot.

 

 

I was agreeing with you actually xD

[HazZarD87 166]

Simple yet true: KoS/PvP are what the players make it to be. There is no 'solution' there is no 'problem' it is what it is and you're going to have to deal with it. Stop the QQ or play something else.

[applejaxc 2500]

I was agreeing with you actually xD

 

I'm not sure you were...

 

I don't know. I didn't go to bed last night so I'm pretty out there.

[PooPoo 13]

Perhaps safe zones where players can't shoot each other?

 

Or perhaps you chose what type of player you want to be before spawning in (bandit or hero). Hero's can't shoot each other, but can shoot bandits. Bandits can kill anyone. Therefore if you see a hero, you can work together. If you see a bandit you can kill them. Players who want to be bandits can enjoy the PvP. And players who want to work together can work together, but still have a PvP aspect against bandits. 

 

Also agree with the "making it harder" won't do anything, because the PvP aspect has been engrained in DayZ players. Even though it might be more difficult, players aren't all of a sudden going to not shoot each other and just get along. 

 

I am skeptical of making drastic changes to the game though. I mean all the DayZ players playing right now, like the way the game is. If any drastic changes are made, it could turn off a lot of people. I think it's too late to make any big game changers, and the stand alone will most likely be the same thing. Centered around PvP

Edited August 10, 2013 by PooPoo

[sasrecon 133]

Perhaps safe zones where players can't shoot each other?

 

Or perhaps you chose what type of player you want to be before spawning in (bandit or hero). Hero's can't shoot each other, but can shoot bandits. Bandits can kill anyone. Therefore if you see a hero, you can work together. If you see a bandit you can kill them. Players who want to be bandits can enjoy the PvP. And players who want to work together can work together, but still have a PvP aspect against bandits. 

 

That would go against everything DayZ has tried to become.

[PooPoo 13]

That would go against everything DayZ has tried to become.

 

 

Yea I already explained it below. It's too late for game changers. Any change that will have players actually working together and not killing one another on sight will change the game too much. OP just wanted suggestions on how one would make it so that players could work together and not KOS every person. 

[Mos1ey 6301]

It's not too late for game changers, it's too late to head in a 'gamey', non-authentic direction where the player is limited in their choices. No disabling of friendly-fire and definitely no safe zones.

[PooPoo 13]

It's not too late for game changers, it's too late to head in a 'gamey', non-authentic direction where the player is limited in their choices. No disabling of friendly-fire and definitely no safe zones.

 

I think so. If you are going to encourage more PvE, you are going to have to make major changes to the game. And how exactly would you "reduce" kos? I really can't see a typical DayZ player who normally kills on sight, thinking "hmm, maybe I shouldn't kill on sight this time", or "hmm maybe I will kill on sight this time". What possible game changes could encourage that? And unless you force players to work together, players are still going to bring the same DayZ mentality, which is you can't trust anyone. The way I see it, is you drastically shift the game towards PvE, or keep it the way it is. It would be extremely difficult to have an "in between". 

 

Maybe I should clarify my position. I don't think it's too late to make changes to a game, but I think any change that shifted the game towards PvE would have to be too drastic. And if you just created some "incentives" to work together, players are still going to kill each other on sight because that's what they do. 

Edited August 10, 2013 by PooPoo

[p4triot 207]

Perhaps safe zones where players can't shoot each other?

 

Or perhaps you chose what type of player you want to be before spawning in (bandit or hero). Hero's can't shoot each other, but can shoot bandits. Bandits can kill anyone. Therefore if you see a hero, you can work together. If you see a bandit you can kill them. Players who want to be bandits can enjoy the PvP. And players who want to work together can work together, but still have a PvP aspect against bandits. 

 

Also agree with the "making it harder" won't do anything, because the PvP aspect has been engrained in DayZ players. Even though it might be more difficult, players aren't all of a sudden going to not shoot each other and just get along. 

 

I am skeptical of making drastic changes to the game though. I mean all the DayZ players playing right now, like the way the game is. If any drastic changes are made, it could turn off a lot of people. I think it's too late to make any big game changers, and the stand alone will most likely be the same thing. Centered around PvP

 

And how do you explain to force field impeding me of killing a survivor? The Zombie outbreak came with some sort of Black Magic or what? How do you explain this in terms of realism? Healing broken bones with morphines it is already the maximum far away from the reality I would ever go. Your idea is just too much arcade, goes the opposite way of what Day Z is supposed to be.

Edited August 10, 2013 by p4triot

[rallye 89]

I think the only true way to discourage KOS through cooperation is to limit what everyone can do. If everyone cant fix a car, be a pilot, treat wounds, grow food, etc people become valuable. 

 

People are valuable for their skills, and through their skills we will find cooperation when everyone is a jack of all trades and a master of all, there is no reason to cooperate. 

 

I'd like to add this is perfectly possible without adding a class system. With a far more limited inventory, the choice of having to keep a medical kit to treat wounds with or a toolbox, or more ammo, etc would go a long way to forcing people to work together. 

Edited August 10, 2013 by lobo

[PooPoo 13]

And how do you explain to force field impeding me of killing a survivor? The Zombie outbreak came with some sort of Black Magic or what? How do you explain this in terms of realism? Healing broken bones with morphines it is already the maximum far away from the reality I would ever go. Your idea is just too much arcade, goes the opposite way of what Day Z is supposed to be.

 

You can say that about nearly every aspect of DayZ. How do bandages heal gunshot wounds? How do you fit a helicopter rotor in a backpack and carry it around? Like I said in that post. Any change that is going to dramatically shift the game towards PvE is going to be too drastic and go in the opposite direction that DayZ is heading now.

[p4triot 207]

I think the only true way to discourage KOS through cooperation is to limit what everyone can do. If everyone cant fix a car, be a pilot, treat wounds, grow food, etc people become valuable. 

 

People are valuable for their skills, and through their skills we will find cooperation when everyone is a jack of all trades and a master of all, there is no reason to cooperate. 

 

Totally agree, but those skills should come from the player, not the character. This is why I think helis should be as difficult to fly as in ToH Veteran mode (which is still doable with keyboard + mouse but difficult enough for not everyone to know how). Or to use a snipe properly, or a lot more of ideas, but always from the user side. Never the character, never ingame skills, or levels, or classes.

[rallye 89]

Totally agree, but those skills should come from the player, not the character. This is why I think helis should be as difficult to fly as in ToH Veteran mode (which is still doable with keyboard + mouse but difficult enough for not everyone to know how). Or to use a snipe properly, or a lot more of ideas, but always from the user side. Never the character, never ingame skills, or levels, or classes.

 

check out my edit