[SA] - Ammunition Types & Alternate Ammo

[Draco122 412]

Ammunition is a core front of any weapon particulary firearms, but it got me thinking, why is it that in DayZ itself only shotguns and grenade launcher recieve such a dramatic benefit. While shotguns are certainly under-used in DayZ, even more so with Grenade Launchers (largely in part to their rarity) only these weapons recieve alternate ammo for them.

Alot of the ideas where somewhat inspired while playing Fallout: New Vegas, which has some interesting ammunition mechanics.

Instead here's what I propose: (BE WARNED LOTS OF TEXT!)

Ammunition Types

Something to consider was the idea of ammunition types, in this essence it's the same ammo but of a different type (by no means is it "alternate ammo").

To express my point is the idea of Military Ammo versus Civilian Ammo.

A .223 Round is the same as the 5,56x45 NATO, but a .223 is often coined as being a civilian round because of its drop in power compared to military spec 5,56 NATO. However it has been proven that some military weapons can interchange between these two types. An M16 for example, can fire both civilian power .223 rounds in addition to military spec 5,56 NATO rounds.

However this has been told that it's not exactly a safe practice when used with Civilian weapons that can also take .223 rounds as firing military issue 5,56 NATO can cause malfunctions and a number of safety related issues.

Similar rounds are the .308 Winchester is the same as the 7,62x51 NATO, the difference again being a drop in power and penetration for the .308 compared the 7,62 NATO. The .357 Magnum is derived from the .38 Special and the .44 Magnum is derived from the .44 Special. Weapons that can fire .357 or .44 Magnum can also fire their Special cousins for weaker damage.

Alternate Ammo

We've seen the alternate ammo on the shotguns and grenade launchers, but why stop there? Why not have a little bit more in terms of ammunition variety. Some examples:

Common Ammo types:

• Round Nose - Commonly used in large caliber Hunting Rifles (CZ-550), designed to give moderate expansion with high stopping power and accuracy but lacking penetration of hard materials, also used in some pistols too (possibly the standard round used for all handguns).
  

• Hollow Point - Common amongest Pistols and Sub-Machine guns but also used for civilian Hunting rifles. Inflicts high damage on unarmored targets but lacks penetration against hard targets (HP pistol rounds will not penetrate body armor, Hollow Point rilfe rounds will penetrate armor but have a severe reduction in damage delt, cannot penetrate hard surfaces such as metal or stone)
  

• Soft Point - A combination of a Hollow Point with a round nose type, using a plastic tip. Penetrates thin materials and can also penetrate body armor with limited effective. (SP Pistol rounds can penetrate body armor but behave similarly to HP rifle rounds, SP rifle rounds have an increased penetration and damage to armored targets and light cover)
  

• FMJ - Commonly used in Military Weapons (the standard round type for all Military weapons). Designed to aid in penetration of materials and body armor while lacking in terms of expansion (high AP but low damage). Exists for military .9mm weapons as well (M9, MP5A5, MP5SD6)
  

• Sub-Sonic - Low Power rounds used for Suppressed weapons. Extremely rare and limited to .9mm and .308/7,62(Same as the SD rounds used in the Mod)
  

• Armor Peircing - Directly designed to peirce armor and materials, extremely rare military issue ammunition. (Offers high armor peircing benefits against most forms of cover and can pierce military issue vehicles fairly well, still only offers marginal damage to unarmored targets)
  

• Surplus - Dated or old rounds which have become corrosive, (pretty much should be the standard ammo for everything in residental, farm or hunting loot spawns). Damages the weapon internally and causes frequent jams and malfunctions.
  

Unique Alternate Ammo

9mm & .45 ACP

• +P - Exists primarily with .9mm and .45 ACP, increases penetration of light materials, improves range (because of the high velocity) and stopping power at the chance of increased recoil and possible damage to the weapon resulting in misfires, malfunctions and jams. Exists for 9x18mm (Makarov), 9x19mm (G17, M9, PDW) and .45 ACP (Revolver, M1911)
  

• Hydra Shok - Exists with .9mm and .45 ACP. Teflon coated hollow point bullets which aid in both expansion and penetration. Very rare ammunition type. (Similar in function to SP bullets but with far more increased damage and penetration). Exists for 9x19mm (G17, M9, PDW) and .45 ACP (Revolver, M1911).
  

• Super - Only available with .45 ACP. Longer case filled with a more powerful propellant. Increases damage and range as well as velocity of the round but increases recoil and can damage the gun with use.
  

1. .357 Magnum/.44 Magnum
   

• Flat Point - Flat Point round commonly used in lever action rifles. Behaves similar to a Hollow Point but has increased knockdown power at the expense of penetration and expansion.
  

• Semi-Wadcutter - Used for shooting paper targets and hunting. Behaves similar to a Round Nose, offers increased stopping power at the expense of penetration of hard targets.
  

• .38 Special - Parent round that the .357 Magnum was designed off. Has similar look to the .357 Magnum but with a shorter case. Delievers less damage and stopping power but at the expense of less wear and tear on the weapon and less recoil.
  

• .44 Special - Parent round that the .44 Magnum was designed off. Has similar look to the .44 Magnum but with a shorter case. Delievers less damage and stopping power but at the expense of less wear and tear on the weapon and less recoil.
  

1. .223/5,56 NATO & .308/7,62 NATO
   

• Match - Match Rounds designed for Accuracy. Improves accuracy of the weapon from longer ranges when fired but offers reduced damage, stopping power and less wear on weapon.
  

• Tracer - Largely designed for Machine Guns, fires a streaked bullet. Offers similar performance to an AP round but fires a visible bullet which can be tracked by the shooter and its oppenants.
  

1. Shotgun Ammo
   

• Birdshot - Shotgun ammo used for the hunting of birds and small game (rabbits, chickens, birds), fires anywhere between 70 to 100 pellets. Lowest damage shotgun round with a large spread designed for shooting birds mid-flight. Most common shotgun round.
  

• Buckshot - Shotgun ammo used for hunting intermediate game at close range, also used for defensive and combat shotguns for police and Military. Fires 8-9 pellets and offers the highest damage at close range (similar to what we have now)
  

• Slug - Fires a single solid lead slug which has high penetration and stopping power with a chance of knocking someone out on hit. (Same as we have now)
  

• Magnum Birdshot/Buckshot/Slug - More powerful version of standard Birdshot, Buckshot and Slug. Increases recoil and damage to the weapon however.
  

• Flechette - Fires several tiny steel darts which aid in penetration but lack stopping power and damage.
  

• Bean Bag - Commonly used by Police Forces as a less lethal weapon. Inflicts the Pain status effect on hit and can knockout the target.
  

• Rock Salt - Commonly used by Farmers to ward off intruders. Fires several cube shaped pellets of rock salt. Inflicts a severe pain effect on a successful hit and is required to remove the salt pellets to cure.
  

• Incendiary (Dragons Breath) - Shotgun round loaded with magnesium and Zinc pellets which fires a gout of flame. Short ranged and doesn't penetrate well but does fire damage to anyone within 30-40 feet of the user.
  

• Home-Made - Home-made shotgun rounds (possible crafting recipe) which allows players to make improvised slugs, flechettes or buckshot rounds using scrap materials.
  

• Flare - 12 Gauge flares commonly used in signal pistols. Fires a bright red flare.
  

1. Grenade Launcher Ammo (Very Rare)
   

• HE - High Explosive grenade, detonates on impact with a small blast area
  

• FRAG - Fragmentation Explosive grenade, detonates on impact with a large blast area
  

• Smoke - Smoke Grenade, detonates on impact but leaves a trail of smoke behind the round after 40m. Direct hit will kill a target, delievers different coloured smoke
  

• Tear Gas - Riot-Control grenade, detonates on impact but leaves a train of white gas after 40m. Causes temporary blindness and blurryness.
  

• Baton - Riot control grenade, fires a large 40mm plastic or rubber round. Causes instant knock out on hit but only minimal damage.
  

• Flare - Fires a different coloured flare. A direct hit will cause severe damage.
  

1. Crossbow Ammo
   

• Wooden Bolt - A craftable wooden bolt which has an 80% chance to break on impact. Can be made from a pile of wooden.
  

• Steel Bolt - Default Steel bolt, 100% chance of recovery but cannot be crafted.
  

• Improvised Bolt - Improvised bolt crafted from scrap metal pieces. Effects the accuracy of the bolt when fired.
  

• Chemlight Bolt - A steel or wooden bolt which has a chemlight tied to it.
  

• Flare Bolt - A steel or wooden bolt which a flare tied to it.
  

• Fire Bolt - A steel bolt which has a fuel soaked rag on the tip, is lit and fired. Causes burn damage on targets and brief light source.
  

• Poison Bolt - A bolt which has a tip coated in poison or an infectious disease.
  

It's alot, but it's there

[Zionist Wabbit 154]

Let's clog the already large download file(s) by adding pointless ammunition which only has slight novelty uses as opposed to the current ammunition types already within the Game.

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

• Poison Bolt - A bolt which has a tip coated in poison or an infectious disease.
  

Thats the kind of bread that meets the butter right there.

[Rarabka 165]

I really think that bean bag rounds are a must in SA. It's always good to have to option to knock someone out and run away(or kidnap them).

[beezle (DayZ) 1]

yeah, bean bag rounds are common...

too much of a good thing here.

maybe we get a start by having a 'container' relationship between ammo and mags. that way you can find just ammo and can refill partially used mags. joy here is that .556 or 9mm is used in various weapons and can be more useful overall w/ less ammo in game..

and yeah, having .357, 38spl and a .357 jhp all be useful with different stats would really add something for revolvers.

[dulix11 731]

I like the idea of having 3 or 4 different types of rounds (Hollow Point, Round Nose, FMJ etc) but not 50,978 other types.

[colekern 1364]

Let's clog the already large download file(s) by adding pointless ammunition which only has slight novelty uses as opposed to the current ammunition types already within the Game.

This wouldn't take much space. All it would be is text defining different ammo types. But I see what you mean, this is a little much.

Edited May 12, 2013 by colekern

[applejaxc 2500]

This has already been suggested. A lot. But I like your depth. :)

Dual-stacked/mixed magazines, anyone? Putting HP and AP in one magazine ensures you in any situation!

[-Gews- 7443]

Similar rounds are the .308 Winchester is the same as the 7,62x51 NATO, the difference again being a drop in power and penetration for the .308 compared the 7,62 NATO.

The .308 isn't less powerful than the 7.62x51mm, in fact I've heard many people say it's loaded hotter, probably for hunting purposes - that's false.

You can see this error propagated online in various places, example:

There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi.

The confusion stemmed from a military manual which said the 7.62x51 had a maximum pressure of 50,000 PSI. That's wrong. Back in the day, they used to use "lead units of pressure" for low-pressure cartridges (ie, shotgun shells, etc) and "copper units of pressure" for rifle cartridges.

The document should read 50,000 CUP, but someone put PSI instead, and people got muddled up.

The standard military load mentioned (M80) fires a 146 grain bullet at 2,750 ft/s (measured at the military's usual 78 feet from the muzzle). Muzzle velocity would be about 2,815 ft/s.

Go to Federal's site and look up their specs for a 150 grain bullet - all but one of their 150 grain loads have a published muzzle velocity of 2,820 ft/s (and the exception is slower). Sound similar?

The difference lies in headspace and cartridge wall thickness. The military uses thicker brass. That means you can use less powder to achieve the same pressure and velocities since there's less space inside the cartridge, and it also helps prevent case ruptures. The military brass also has a longer headspace (in this case the distance from the shoulder of the cartridge to the bolt face). Using a .308 in a 7.62 with excessive headspace could potentially lead to a "kaboom"...

Anyways the point I was originally intending to make is that they pretty much identical in terms of power.

Round Nose - Commonly used in large caliber Hunting Rifles (CZ-550), designed to give moderate expansion with high stopping power and accuracy but lacking penetration of hard materials, also used in some pistols too (possibly the standard round used for all handguns).

Heh technically the CZ550 could likely use round-nosed ammo, being chambered in 9.3x62mm (solids for maximum penetration on African dangerous game), but in Europe they'd probably be more likely to use expanding rounds since they don't have to deal with Cape Buffalo, hippos, and the like. A place for everything and everything in its place.

I'm of the opinion the CZ in the game uses .308 though, so it would probably use hollow or soft point ammo.

As for penetration, pointy FMJ might have better penetration on metallic plates and body armour due to more evergy being focussed on a small spot, but when the bullet has to pass through more material (let's say a bunch of walls, or thick brick, or an animal's body), a more blunt solid (or hard cast for animals) bullet can have superior penetration because the weight is more evenly distributed and the bullet stays stable. The FMJ typically has less weight in the front, being pointy and all, and is more likely to tumble. Many FMJ bullets shot into ballistic gelatin or animals will flip completely around (!), whereas a solid will just drill straight through no fucks given. :P

Hollow Point - Common amongest Pistols and Sub-Machine guns but also used for civilian Hunting rifles. Inflicts high damage on unarmored targets but lacks penetration against hard targets (HP pistol rounds will not penetrate body armor, Hollow Point rilfe rounds will penetrate armor but have a severe reduction in damage delt, cannot penetrate hard surfaces such as metal or stone)

Oh, hollow points will penetrate metal, cars, doors, yep, sure enough they will. Rifle rounds will go through a soft vest depending on the level of protection. No hollow points for assault rifles, please, it's common in North America, but I don't think it would be too common in Chernarus when there are bazillions of FMJ 7.62x39mm lying around and not a single Dick's Sporting Goods. I suppose the 7.62 rifles could conceivably use .308 hollow points and other hunting rounds. Although I remember reading somewhere someone was assassinated with a 7.62x39 using Tula soft-point rounds (the point of the article) so I guess they could be a rare spawn...

The problem is damage with the current system (and the ArmA 3 system, and probably the Standalone system too, QQ)... do they do twice the damage? 1.5x? Because in real life you can easily be "one-shotted" with standard FMJ as well, unlike in DayZ.

Soft Point - A combination of a Hollow Point with a round nose type, using a plastic tip. Penetrates thin materials and can also penetrate body armor with limited effective. (SP Pistol rounds can penetrate body armor but behave similarly to HP rifle rounds, SP rifle rounds have an increased penetration and damage to armored targets and light cover)

Mmm I'm not sure it's worth differing between soft-point and hollow-point ammo. I guess one is more likely to expand slower and penetrates more, the other more likely expand quicker and penetrate less, but that's in general and depends on the velocity of the bullet. I don't think soft-point pistol rounds would penetrate body armor... they have... well, they have a soft point!

FMJ - Commonly used in Military Weapons (the standard round type for all Military weapons). Designed to aid in penetration of materials and body armor while lacking in terms of expansion (high AP but low damage). Exists for military .9mm weapons as well (M9, MP5A5, MP5SD6)

Lol no issues here, what we have in the mod right now.

Armor Peircing - Directly designed to peirce armor and materials, extremely rare military issue ammunition. (Offers high armor peircing benefits against most forms of cover and can pierce military issue vehicles fairly well, still only offers marginal damage to unarmored targets)

I think AP rounds would do pretty much the same damage to unarmored targets as FMJ, as long as the standard FMJ wasn't a tumbling or fragmenting bullet. A 7.62 FMJ and a 7.62 AP would both make a .30 caliber hole in you...

Surplus - Dated or old rounds which have become corrosive, (pretty much should be the standard ammo for everything in residental, farm or hunting loot spawns). Damages the weapon internally and causes frequent jams and malfunctions.

I'm pretty sure nearly everything in Chernarus would be surplus, it's ex-military gear after all... all those Soviet military weapons and millions of rounds of ammunition stored all over...

[uweron1011 2]

A small digression, in europe do not apply specification or sammi + P ammunition is treated as a normal ammunition (weapon is built for + P ammunition), ammunition especially dangerous "(Hydra Shock Hollow Point, Incendiary, Armor Piercing and other) is illegal for civilian users, which should be very rare to find. Post-soviet suplurs ammo is very popular .among hunters and sport shooters because of the attractive price, and if, for example, was stored in a sealed factory box, it should not lose their properties yet I would add 2-3 types of black powder and percussion caps with muzzleloaded weapons (Sharps rifle, Colt Navy Colt Walker Kentucku Rifle and so on)

[Sutinen 635]

157 grain 215 grain 300 grain blabla damage dropoff blabla .223 5.56 NATO .308 Win, .338 Lapua, .50 BMG flintlock pistol lead ball .30-30 1,500 muzzle energy maximum range minimum range recoil muzzle rise blablabla, STOP! STOP!!

I think you're thinking too much. You don't need a cartridge simulator, just some generic rounds that work.

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

It sounds great, but I think you're over thinking it.

I don't really want 100+ types of ammo in the SA. And from what I've gathered, there will be different types of ammo (I.e. AP, Tracer, standard, etc) and you will be able to layer them in your mag however you please (I.e. T,AP,S,AP,S,T...)

[FlashHawk4 44]

Yeah, needs to be trimmed down, but is an otherwise acceptable thing.

Of course, I don't want corrosive ammo to be an inevitable gun-killer that slowly eats away your baby without giving you anything to do to stop it. I shoot corrosive ammo out of my Mosin-Nagant rather frequently, and as long as you clean it ASAP, it's no big deal. So, assuming there's a quasi-realistic cleaning mechanic in the game, I'm all for it.

[-Gews- 7443]

You don't need a cartridge simulator, just some generic rounds that work.

That will not do, good sir! That will not do at all!

This is the kind of stuff that filled all my school notebooks... so you may not need a cartridge simulator, but I most certainly do!

Edited May 12, 2013 by Gews

[DontTrustPubs 17]

Waste of development time if you ask me. Wouldn't add anything substantial to the game other than complicate an already simple and effective system.

Edited May 12, 2013 by DontTrustPubs

[-Gews- 7443]

Waste of development time if you ask me. Wouldn't add anything substantial to the game other than complicate an already simple and effective system.

I actually agree in this particular case but I still think the current system needs an overhaul.

I also think the CZ550 should be relabeled as a 7.62 and able to scavenge rounds from DMR mags like an M24... as well as having its own rare hunting ammo (simply change the CZ mag properties) that deals significantly more damage but is much harder to find.

[Draco122 412]

I actually agree in this particular case but I still think the current system needs an overhaul.

I also think the CZ550 should be relabeled as a 7.62 and able to scavenge rounds from DMR mags like an M24... as well as having its own rare hunting ammo (simply change the CZ mag properties) that deals significantly more damage but is much harder to find.

I agree on the ammo overhaul, but as for the CZ550 I think its caliber of 9.3x62mm should remain but like you say have it's round do more damage than the DMR or M24.

Some additional notes:

Yes I over thought it, so here's a simplified version

Round Nose, Hollow Point, Full Metal Jacket, Sub-Sonic, Armor Peircing and Surplus rounds should remain as the different types of round.

Surplus would be the most common

Round Nose and Hollow Point coming a close 2nd

FMJ is third

While Sub-Sonic and Armor peircing rounds are extremely rare

In addition I'd like to add Match and Tracer as Ammo Types instead of Alternate ammo, Match would be high grade non-surplus ammo which is rare while Tracer is almost exclusively used for Machine Guns

The Alternate Ammo should be reduced in number by having only their "parent" or "sister" cartridge, these include:

.45 ACP = .45 Super

.357 Magnum = .38 Special

.44 Magnum = .44 Special

5,56 NATO = .223

7,62 NATO = .308

Shotgun rounds should benefit still from a larger variety which include:

Birdshot - Most Common

Buckshot - Uncommon

Slug - Uncommon

Magnum Shot/Buck/Slug - Rare

Bean Bag/Rubber Slug - Rare

Rock Salt - Uncommon to Rare

Flare - Uncommon

Grenade Rounds should be ultra rare military spawn only with the exception of flare rounds, HE, Smoke and Flare like we have now should remain, with possible chances to include Baton and Tear Gas as low tier military loot

All the Crossbow Ammo should remain, craftable bolts especially

[FlashHawk4 44]

Gews, does the phrase "Main MIlitary Weapon thread" mean anything to you? Just out of curiosity.

[-Gews- 7443]

Gews, does the phrase "Main MIlitary Weapon thread" mean anything to you? Just out of curiosity.

Nope but I looked it up. My country died of inactivity. :P

[FlashHawk4 44]

I suspected you were that type of person :P

[Saethkept 134]

I agree with you OP. Some of the best fun I've had recently in DayZ was after adding the AA-12 to my server along with its three ammunition types. Essentially one weapon for most all occasions and those HE rounds sure do put a smile on my face.

[Schmeddy 9]

I agree on the ammo overhaul, but as for the CZ550 I think its caliber of 9.3x62mm should remain but like you say have it's round do more damage than the DMR or M24.

Some additional notes:

Yes I over thought it, so here's a simplified version

Round Nose, Hollow Point, Full Metal Jacket, Sub-Sonic, Armor Peircing and Surplus rounds should remain as the different types of round.

Surplus would be the most common

Round Nose and Hollow Point coming a close 2nd

FMJ is third

While Sub-Sonic and Armor peircing rounds are extremely rare

In addition I'd like to add Match and Tracer as Ammo Types instead of Alternate ammo, Match would be high grade non-surplus ammo which is rare while Tracer is almost exclusively used for Machine Guns

The Alternate Ammo should be reduced in number by having only their "parent" or "sister" cartridge, these include:

.45 ACP = .45 Super

.357 Magnum = .38 Special

.44 Magnum = .44 Special

5,56 NATO = .223

7,62 NATO = .308

Shotgun rounds should benefit still from a larger variety which include:

Birdshot - Most Common

Buckshot - Uncommon

Slug - Uncommon

Magnum Shot/Buck/Slug - Rare

Bean Bag/Rubber Slug - Rare

Rock Salt - Uncommon to Rare

Flare - Uncommon

Grenade Rounds should be ultra rare military spawn only with the exception of flare rounds, HE, Smoke and Flare like we have now should remain, with possible chances to include Baton and Tear Gas as low tier military loot

All the Crossbow Ammo should remain, craftable bolts especially

see I think the non lethal ammo should be pretty common. Maybe that's not realistic but I think, for me, it would be more fun to knock out/stun a player take their shit and leave; rather than killing them.