Is using teamspeak 'cheating'?

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

It's tough to have any sort of debate about stuff like this when it comes to DayZ. It's too easy to dismiss it all as meta gaming, or just for the sake of fun. How dare anyone dictate how others play their games. Few people ever approach the topic from an objective point of view. Looking not at their own intentions and interests, but at what would benefit the system the game is trying to achieve.

Is it cheating? Yes, it is. I have yet to hear any logical reasons as to why it wouldn't be. It's like texting your partner during card games, no matter how you justify it, it's cheating.

I have to agree with Anubis,

It provides an advantage over using the built-in chat in direct-comm mode because Z will react to direct chat and not to TS/skype/...

Solution to avoid any problem: level the playfield and make Z not react to direct-comm (the feature is borked anyway) and just pretend TS/skype is a radio.

While it's cool that the zombies react to pressing the chat button, it only encourages people to use 3rd party solutions. It was hard enough to get people to use direct chat before it aggro'ed the zombies. I've literally been killed by players because I was reluctant to get on their 3rd party application. The sad part is I didn't really blame them for killing me, they just did what was in their power to better their situation. The same way they decided that using skype was better than using the in-game voice chat.

It's like when a game has a glitch, and everybody is abusing that glitch. An overpowered weapon, an extra strong vehicle, maybe a mission that gives too much credit. Point is, when everybody is using the glitch it becomes harder for the people trying to play it legit. People who were attracted by what the game is trying to achieve are being peer pressured into cheating the system. If you don't cheat, you can't compete. It happens in a lot of video games, and it sickens me to see so many gamers accept it with open arms.

[Maloney (DayZ) 26]

I think that at this point I don't consider it cheating, I think once radios are implemented then it is pretty much cheating. Until the game includes some form of proper communication (side chat is a nuisance for other players) then I just regard it as meta-gaming.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I think that at this point I don't consider it cheating, I think once radios are implemented then it is pretty much cheating. Until the game includes some form of proper communication (side chat is a nuisance for other players) then I just regard it as meta-gaming.

Just accept that you and most players of DayZ enjoy cheating in this aspect. You believe that a communications system needs to be in the game, so you're assuming you know what the game should be. Perhaps I think the game should include everyones positions on the map, does that mean I can use ESP hacks and say it's not cheating? Nah, it's all cheating. You're circumventing limitations set by the game. It doesn't fall into our hands to decide the direction this game will be going and get there ourselves.

Perhaps the world of cycling is heading towards a blood doping community where athletes do everything medically possible to win, and that is accepted. But, going there yourself before the rest of the sport accepts it and includes it, is cheating.

I don't see how anyone can say it's not cheating. But I can understand how people accept the cheating.

[Tek (DayZ) 95]

Here is how to "fix" this remove press to speak mic open at all times. Sure people hear you breath well this is how to fix it lower the mic settings. And its not cheating its unjust like rage sayed but its unfair to those who dont use these programs

This is one of the most idiotic things i've ever read on here.

So is it not fair to people who take the bus because other people drive their own car?

Or how about it's unfair that I have a GTX670 and the guy I killed has a GTX460.

Or it's unfair that I used a fully automatic gun when the guy only had a semi-automatic gun.

Or it's unfair that I cooked that meat because I had matches and some joe schmoe coudln't cook his meat because he didn't have matches.

Or that I have to work all freaking day when others can work half the day.

Go use your brain.

[Blondedash 403]

NO its being assed to install something the end.

[The Shadow 119]

I wouldnt call using skype cheating as its a method of communication that everyone has access to :)

[liquidmind 320]

there is a lot of wrong vocabulary going on.

glitch/bug/exploit - is something inside the game, not intended by the programmer. f.e. hiding in bushes to avoid hits of zombies; walls you can crawl into, etc. even tough:

a bug is in general an unwanted behavior of the program,

a glitch is an event not handled by the system,

and an exploit is a bug, than can be used by a player to gain advantage.

Cheating is any method used to gain an advantage in game, not intended by the game-makers.

Hacking is accessing a Game/Program and changing it.

Scripting ist using a script, that automates a specific hack, so you don't have to do it yourself

TS in general, is just a Communication Program.

You can use it to talk to friends who are playing another game. It has nothing to do with dayZ, so it is none of the above.

You can use it to join a public TS-Server, everyone can use, to talk to the people on the server, so it is none of the above.

But if you use it to talk to a specific group of people, with the intent of having no one else listening in on your conversation, going on a Man Hunt, it is an unfair advantage, that was not intended, and therefor cheating. But it is only that. Cheating by the use of an external aid.

Since zombies agro on direct chat, one could make the point that it is always cheating. But as I pointed out one or two pages ago: the communication system in dayz mod is flawed, so looking for something else to do the job is understandable. If Standalone has a better system, that changes.

[Saethkept 134]

I feel as though the two different schools of thought here are related to those inclined to immersive/role-playing type gameplay, and those who just play the game. Immersive players are the ones who skulk around every corner, spending most of their time in 1st person, never agroing a zombie. The general player just runs as fast as they can around zombies because they know the limitations of the game and exploit that. To an immersive player, even that is cheating.

I think what would be nice to see would be more popular moderated "role-playing" servers with rules like SS13. Although the ones I have seen in the past never seem to last long, because 1st person only etc, just seems to be too damn scary for the average player. People need that voip crutch because isolating themselves, not being able to talk to someone else, makes them feel too uncomfortable. Sure you wanna play with your mates in a group or whatever, thats great, just don't berate other players because they like to play the game a bit differently to enhance their immersion.

I agree with this. There are most definitely two factions so to speak in most online games; DayZ absolutely being one of them. Essentially, you have what I would respectively call "Light Players" and "Deep Players". Light Players - of any maturity level really - may still truly love to play the game (without cheating) but essentially want to just hop in and gear up, and get on with their "end game". Nothing wrong with that; many DayZ players also have lives involving real world responsibilities.

The Deep Players (I am one of these), want to be completely immersed in the games they play, meaning even though they know that beyond the border woods surrounding Chernarus lies the flat, ugly and barren "end" of the world, never go there. Deep Players will spend hours stalking an enemy; treat every zombie as a potential death experience, and climb around on the in game architecture just to absorb the post apocalyptic ambience.

On topic:

While I do not think use of TS/Mumble/C3 etc. is cheating, when I was a brand new DayZ player, I was somwhat intimidated by squads of other players on Skype, etc. What I did was "roleplay" them as roving bands of ex-military units or gangs, whatever, and proceeded accordingly.

[Blindingsun 233]

TBH i think that Teamspeak and Skype, or any other 3rd party tool is an exploit. I wouldn't go far as to call it cheating but i can see where your friend is coming from.

An exploit is anything that can be used which isn't meant to be part of the game design. In DayZ Vanilla you aren't allowed to talk to someone in Sidechat because it is deemed unrealistic. You shouldn't be able to magically talk to someone that is on the other side of the map. But then again, you shouldn't be able to see around/over walls in 3rd person either.

However, it's a game and not being able to communicate with your friends would make the game unplayable to a lot of people.

Hopefully the implementation of radios in the SA will give players reason to try the in game communication options instead of using the psychic abilities of Skype/Teamspeak, but i really don't think it will.

It doesn't bother me tbh, i use them myself sometimes.

By your logic then. if 3 of my mates bring their pc's to my house to play DayZ... we're cheating because we're in the same room? get over yourself *no disrespect.

[Hetstaine 10852]

While I do not think use of TS/Mumble/C3 etc. is cheating, when I was a brand new DayZ player, I was somwhat intimidated by squads of other players on Skype, etc. What I did was "roleplay" them as roving bands of ex-military units or gangs, whatever, and proceeded accordingly.

By your logic then. if 3 of my mates bring their pc's to my house to play DayZ... we're cheating because we're in the same room?

I quite often play with a few other people and we have our pcs all set up in the same room. Maybe we should wear blinders.

In communist gaming there is no TS. Everyone slap yourself twice and delete TS, the motherland needs us.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Why put so much effort into convincing yourselves it's not cheating?

I cheated when I first started playing DayZ, I used a loot map to figure out where all the good loot spawns were. Calling it meta-gaming or whatever is silly, it's cheating and I cheated.

[kreinzer@gmail.com 7]

Not cheating per se, but imo it goes against the DayZ experience since there is Direct Communication ingame. That said, I use VOIP since otherwise it would be near impossible to meet up with friends ingame, specially on servers that have Side chat turned OFF.

[thejoshknight 7]

The point of TS isn't to get an advantage. It's to talk to your friends. A lot of people simply want to hang out with their group while playing video games, and it just so happens they are on this one. They would be using TS whether playing WoW, DayZ, or My Little Pony. It's just a social thing.

[iegle 117]

A well-prepared team can have a pre-arranged meeting place should they ever become separated. We deal with this all the time in our real lives: families will instruct their children to go to a certain location and wait should they become lost. If families can make such pre-arrangements in real life, why can't DayZ squads do the same and avoid the need to exploit a 3rd party aid to coordinate their movements?

I don't buy the argument that since everyone has access to 3rd party chat that it is not cheating. Athletes are busted all the time for using performance-enhancing substances that all of their competitors also have access to. I defy anyone to make a convincing argument that they are not cheating. Justifying one's ways on account that everyone else can also do it is a dangerous path that I prefer not to tread on. It "feels" wrong to me, and that is enough for me.

Some on here have astutely noted that this debate has at it's heart the different mind-sets of the "immersive" gamers versus the rest, who happen to form the majority of the DayZ community. I agree with this completely. This schism has spawned a number of other discussions that all seemingly have no resolution other than no acknowledge that there are different ways to approach this game. The fact that the divide is so deep, and seemingly so irreconcilable is troubling however, I do not think that it is a strength of the game concept that the community is so deeply divided. I will likely be branded a heretic by the Dean-is-god Kool Aid drinkers for this statement.

Great discussion though. Excellent points have been made by posters from both sides of the debate.

[Shiki Nanaya 9]

Thats like saying "In DayZ you play the role of a mute character". If my character is human and in a survival based game that's based on one of the possible "dooms" of mankind, I hardly see why me (my character) wouldn't talk to people.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Why put so much effort into convincing yourselves it's not cheating?

I cheated when I first started playing DayZ, I used a loot map to figure out where all the good loot spawns were. Calling it meta-gaming or whatever is silly, it's cheating and I cheated.

Its ok Mojo, we forgive you :)

[Blondedash 403]

NOOOOOO! it is being bothered to install teamspeak/ Skype and have friends.

[TheBaby 61]

It's an exploit. end of thread.

Nothing can be done to fix it.

Nothing the dev's can do about it.

Exploit.

This guy is also severely retarded

[Blondedash 403]

This guy is also severely retarded

no he is an ultra-retard.

[TheBaby 61]

To actually contribute semi-meaningfully though, instead of just insulting people I'd like to point out that AppleJaxc for example, uses 3rd person in his DayZ Youtube uploads. Now in my eyes if you've got a problem with the advantage of voice programs, despite the fact that you're free to use them, you should probably have problem with 3rd person views and changing the FoV. Yeah,I know the game lets you do both of those but meh, no what I would expect from these ultra-realist types. I dunno.

If somehow skype/teamspeak couldn't be used in conjunction with DayZ, I doubt it would be as popular as it is. Just yous 'core' dudes running about the handful of servers available. Being 'core'.

Edited April 3, 2013 by TheBaby

[DemonGroover 8836]

By your logic then. if 3 of my mates bring their pc's to my house to play DayZ... we're cheating because we're in the same room? get over yourself *no disrespect.

I wouldn't say you were cheating, just being very weird.

And i did actually say i didn't consider it cheating.

Edited April 3, 2013 by DemonGroover

[Blondedash 403]

I wouldn't say you were cheating, just being very weird.

lol and it is kinda the same as using teamspeak.

[Blondedash 403]

actually it is cheating if admin tells you where stuff is.

[entspeak 374]

3rd party voice chat has been a part of online gaming for so long, it's just become accepted. I agree that in a game like DayZ which is about limits on resources, the ability to freely communicate with your friends on the other side of the map goes against the spirit of the game, but what can you do? As has been mentioned, you can't force people to stop using it. It's cool to watch the videos of people using radios to communicate in Arma 2 (most likely using ACRE)... watching a heli pilot express concern that he's accidentally fired on a friendly squad because he's getting no response from them on a radio. But that's dedication to a particular experience... dedication to participating in the simulation. You lose that tension when you don't limit yourself to direct comm and vehicle comm in DayZ. Is your buddy dead? Or is he just out of ear shot. If dead where was he killed who killed them and from where? But, for most, that level of experience is not something people who use TS are interested in from the game, they just want to be able to easily communicate and coordinate with their friends and... again, what are you gonna do?

So, cheat is too strong a word - it's more of an exploit, if anything... but it certainly goes against what DayZ seems to be about.

Edited April 3, 2013 by entspeak

[Rage VG 4033]

I don't buy the argument that since everyone has access to 3rd party chat that it is not cheating. Athletes are busted all the time for using performance-enhancing substances that all of their competitors also have access to. I defy anyone to make a convincing argument that they are not cheating. Justifying one's ways on account that everyone else can also do it is a dangerous path that I prefer not to tread on. It "feels" wrong to me, and that is enough for me.

Performance-enhancing drugs exist solely to give an advantage in a purely competitive environment, and it's expressly stated that they are prohibited, not just for the sake of the game, but because they actually impact the health of the user. You can't tell me that I'm not allowed to talk to my friends, whether they happen to be playing DayZ or not, because you think that I should be entirely bound by the limits of the game, meaning that if my friends aren't in the game with me, they're not allowed to exist to me. If the server owner wants to throw around rules like that, then I'm at my discretion to either accept them or find another server, and spare people who play this way of my presence. But as it stands, there is nothing stating I cannot talk to other people via Skype or TS on Vanilla DayZ servers.

Also, DayZ is not a purely competitive game. You can go through the entirety of your time playing without having come across one hostile person, when they have little to no reason to be friendly. It isn't necessary for such strict reigns on what I do. There is also nothing at stake; Sure, you can't hear me if I don't talk in-game, and that might prolong my life, but there's no reward for living. I'm not denying you of a prize at the finish line, due to taking an easier route there.

Overall, "banning" external chat programs is a waste of time, since you'll just cause collateral (to the people who are talking to friends outside of the game) and it's incredibly easy to circumvent (How are you going to stop me using skype on my mobile or laptop, whilst I play on my desktop?) with very little benefit (I'm pretty sure that if I can't talk to my friends, I'm not going to start talking to myself ingame, I'll be just as quiet.)

Also,

I defy anyone to make a convincing argument that they are not cheating.

You mean besides the fact that they are literally two different things, as I've explained roughly 6 or 7 times?

All in all, everyone is still only thinking of themselves, the way they want to play, and telling people that everyone has to play like that. There are servers that require everyone to join and talk in a mumble server which reacts to player proximity, so it's exactly like direct chat in DayZ. You'll have a hard time finding them since they're so unpopular (I wonder why!), but if you really can't stand the alternative, there ya go.

The Deep Players (I am one of these), want to be completely immersed in the games they play

Well good for you, but what about people who aren't?

I hardly see why me (my character) wouldn't talk to people.

Again, good for you, but there's nothing to show everyone else would, too.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Rage VG