My own thoughts and reservations regarding the impending morality system

[Goose Springsteen 9]

Hey All,

I just thought that as someone who does occasionally indulge in a spot of PVP'ing I might give some thoughts on the matter of the (what I assume is) the impending morality system.

Personally speaking, my concern regarding this likely feature is that it detracts from the present emergent consequences of acting like a dick in the game, namely that if you persist in killing other players the penalty is already there: you have alienated someone who is likely to want revenge and may even attempt to actively seek you out and kill you.

Instead of this, some kind of morality based system that penalizes players who PVP seems far too arbitrary and (if I may use the term without irony) gamey personally. New people who see you for the first time shouldn't know whether you are good or bad based on the colour of your name, rather they should have to form their opinions of you based on your actions and from what they have heard from other players.

Worse still is the prospect of negative stat effects for those who PVP, again I think that the consequences for being a killer are already sufficient to present their own challenges and putting someone at a disadvantage because they kill other players through stats seems to me to be a cheap move.

Anyway, this is of course just my opinion so I would appreciate any and all counter arguments and perhaps even some feedback/clarification from the very kind dev(s) :D.

It's a great mod and hopefully I'll see you on the battlefield (and hopefully you wont see me... until it's too late ;)!)

[mongose123 2]

I completely agree with you mate. The whole magic of this mod is not knowing who to trust, its amazing. If a morality system is introduced it should try and not to interfere with the game, perhaps be just a leader board thing?

Another thing is if people do decide to kill other players and be dicks let them do so, after all it is a role playing mod. Just let people act like they would in a zombie apocalypse.

[joedamage 0]

I completely agree with you mate. The whole magic of this mod is not knowing who to trust' date=' its amazing. If a morality system is introduced it should try and not to interfere with the game, perhaps be just a leader board thing?

Another thing is if people do decide to kill other players and be dicks let them do so, after all it is a role playing mod. Just let people act like they would in a zombie apocalypse.

[/quote']

I agree... implementing any kind of restriction will simply make it less believable. The biggest issue of a post zombie apocalypse is survival, including survivial from other humans. Resources are limited... the fight begins... doing anything to single out or punish human killers would be counterproductive.. making the game more controlled and rigid... if you don't want to be killed by others... try to make some friends and roll in a group. Not everyone is out to kill each other. I say, leave it as it is.

[Adam (DayZ) 193]

The humanity system will only provide a visual change to the players character model at the moment, so no stat disadvantage will be implemented. Also, humanity can go up as well as down, so someone who kills other players can redeem their humanity level.

[Deviant (DayZ) 43]

The humanity system will only provide a visual change to the players character model at the moment' date=' so no stat disadvantage will be implemented. Also, humanity can go up as well as down, so someone who kills other players can redeem their humanity level.

[/quote']

Rocket on BIS Forums:

To clarify:

Not going to remove or even restrict PVP. The intent of this whole mod is to provide you choices, the intent of the planned change (humanity) is to provide some impact of those choices. There's not "punishment" for PvP, but doing alot of PvP will cause your character model to become a "bandit" model. This will make you recognizable as the type of role you have taken on. Your choice in the world is whether you want to retain your humanity, or whether you want to survive. The two are not mutually exclusive, but sometimes you come to a situation where you will need to make a choice.

My whole intent, with the entire game mode, was to make a situation where real human emotions are forced out and experienced - both the good and the bad. My experience in the military taught me sometimes the most rewarding moments come when things were the hardest, when terrible things happened, but they were overcome. My key intention was to make something very brutal, almost cruel, for those like me (I'm the kinda guy who always turns the difficulty right up to max) who want to experience real human emotion (be it absolute frustration, defeat, anger - through to happiness and excitement).

I guess what I am saying, is it has not been about "gameplay balancing" (which is not my best area), but about forcing the player to make choices, some of which are cruel, some of which are not balanced at all, and some of which can easily lead to no win situations. In fact, I didn't even intend it to feel like a game. I prefer the term "anti-game" because I've broken many of the "rules" of gameplay. But personally, I think that's why it is enjoyable even in its very broken and basic state.

Welcome to survival. Do whatever it takes to survive. This includes using your own tactics, like not trusting anyone else and shooting everyone on sight, just in case they do the same to you.

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

So how does one "redeem" himself?

[Deviant (DayZ) 43]

So how does one "redeem" himself?

Stop killing people? ;P

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

So how does one "redeem" himself?

Stop killing people? ;P

So like, the game will see that I havn't killed anybody in awhile, and set my model back to a neutral form?

[Adam (DayZ) 193]

You will get +ve humanity for +ve things, like bandaging or administering drugs or blood.

[mongose123 2]

Ahh nicely done. Should be good then

[bodycount 83]

The problem is this game provides unlimited resources for griefers and general asshattery. Gather some food/water, climb onto of a roof at night and snipe anything carrying a flare. They will never see your name, know where the shot came from or have anyway to defend/prevent this type of action.

Once you do get this person cornered and lay some fire onto them attempt to move in and take them out they disconnect and transfer servers and do it to some more people.

As it stands now this mod is the ultimate grieving game that I have ever played. People kill just for killing. Not to defend bases or supply points, not kill to steal items but kill just to kill like call of doody.

Can you at least make some non PvP servers? I would really like to try the game out without having to worry about someone sniping me just to snipe me for no reason other than for the lulz and l337ness.

You have got the Project Reality fall backs, the Life mod players who can finally grief at will without having to worry about being kicked, and you are throwing them all in with people who want to try out a good zombie RPG. Are we playtesting an Alpha or playing call of doody 8 grief mode extreme edition?

[tpenn 9]

There's an ArmA2 mission spawned from DayZ called "Survival", and I'd strongly suggest those who just want a pew-pew fest should play that instead of DayZ. It'd be a shame to go through the motions of creating a whole separate mod with an "infection" if it just turns into a plain old PVP fest with the only real infection being griefers.

I agree with the sandbox, but because it's not a perfectly realistic sandbox where excessive aggressive behaviour/griefing would likely result in being shot and killed and removed permanently from the game I agree that there of course needs to be a system for keeping this in balance and ensuring the "survival" aspect of gameplay is emphasized over deathmatching.

[Goose Springsteen 9]

You will get +ve humanity for +ve things' date=' like bandaging or administering drugs or blood.

[/quote']

What is to stop someone simply killing loads of players and then helping their own group of friends out and as such remaining an apparently neutral character who in fact is a bit of a bastard :P?

I appreciate that at the end of the day the mod isn't my baby but personally even the visual distinction is a bit much to me as it raises questions of authenticity. If I were a bandit in such a situation I wouldn't dress myself in a way which would make me stand out to the others, rather I'd dress to be as normal looking as possible.

Personally speaking as I've said before I think the serious "bandits" will soon gain a reputation in their own right and people will, as in real life, see their reputations diffuse through the servers and be passed from player to player.

Still I love the mod and I'm sure that unless something drastic happens I will continue to cherish and enjoy playing it!

Thank you,

Goose

[un_poco_lobo 0]

What about false hits on your humanity score? I try and play pretty friendly honestly. However there have been two times where I think I would take an undeserving hit on my humanity score.

What I'm trying to say is, what about killing someone in self-defense? Being shot at but killing the killer before he kills you?

But hey, it's still trail and error at this point so I'm open to anything really.

[Adam (DayZ) 193]

You will get +ve humanity for +ve things' date=' like bandaging or administering drugs or blood.

[/quote']

What is to stop someone simply killing loads of players and then helping their own group of friends out and as such remaining an apparently neutral character who in fact is a bit of a bastard :P?

You loose a LOT more than you gain from killing/bandaging.

What about false hits on your humanity score? I try and play pretty friendly honestly. However there have been two times where I think I would take an undeserving hit on my humanity score.

What I'm trying to say is' date=' what about killing someone in self-defense? Being shot at but killing the killer before he kills you?

But hey, it's still trail and error at this point so I'm open to anything really.

[/quote']

If someone injures you, then you (or anyone) can kill them without penalty for 2min.

[Goose Springsteen 9]

The problem is this game provides unlimited resources for griefers and general asshattery. Gather some food/water' date=' climb onto of a roof at night and snipe anything carrying a flare. They will never see your name, know where the shot came from or have anyway to defend/prevent this type of action.

Once you do get this person cornered and lay some fire onto them attempt to move in and take them out they disconnect and transfer servers and do it to some more people.

As it stands now this mod is the ultimate grieving game that I have ever played. People kill just for killing. Not to defend bases or supply points, not kill to steal items but kill just to kill like call of doody.

Can you at least make some non PvP servers? I would really like to try the game out without having to worry about someone sniping me just to snipe me for no reason other than for the lulz and l337ness.

You have got the Project Reality fall backs, the Life mod players who can finally grief at will without having to worry about being kicked, and you are throwing them all in with people who want to try out a good zombie RPG. Are we playtesting an Alpha or playing call of doody 8 grief mode extreme edition?

[/quote']

Surely you must agree that if the risk of death from other players was removed entirely the mod would be far less engaging with the biggest danger being falling off ladders or getting killed by zombies 5 feet away through a solid wall :P!

I guess if people want a server where there is a strictly enforced no PVP rule they can have it but personally speaking it is the PVP that makes this game exciting - the idea that I can be both the hunter and the hunted, that every choice I make has ramifications and every kill that I make of another player is the result of me being smarter and better prepared for the dangers of the world.

You will get +ve humanity for +ve things' date=' like bandaging or administering drugs or blood.

[/quote']

What is to stop someone simply killing loads of players and then helping their own group of friends out and as such remaining an apparently neutral character who in fact is a bit of a bastard :P?

You loose a LOT more than you gain from killing/bandaging.

What about false hits on your humanity score? I try and play pretty friendly honestly. However there have been two times where I think I would take an undeserving hit on my humanity score.

What I'm trying to say is' date=' what about killing someone in self-defense? Being shot at but killing the killer before he kills you?

But hey, it's still trail and error at this point so I'm open to anything really.

[/quote']

If someone injures you, then you (or anyone) can kill them without penalty for 2min.

Surely the problem with that is that in many cases everything can be over within a few seconds, even (correct me if I'm wrong) with a single shot. Personally speaking if I got the drop on someone I'd generally aim for the head and I'm pretty sure that it would more often than not result in a one hit kill?

I understand there might not be a perfect solution but I think that what you have suggested above appears to me to be somewhat lacking because it forces you to be pressed into a corner before you can rightly take defensive action.

[tpenn 9]

Surely you must agree that if the risk of death from other players was removed entirely the mod would be far less engaging with the biggest danger being falling off ladders or getting killed by zombies 5 feet away through a solid wall :P!

I guess if people want a server where there is a strictly enforced no PVP rule they can have it but personally speaking it is the PVP that makes this game exciting - the idea that I can be both the hunter and the hunted' date=' that every choice I make has ramifications and every kill that I make of another player is the result of me being smarter and better prepared for the dangers of the world.

[/quote']

It sounds like an accurate description of playing "Survival" mission for ArmA2, survive by any means, why bother with all that zombie stuff?

And that's the real problem here, if the PVP system isn't properly crafted, general asshattery will eventually ensure the whole zombie thing just becomes second or third violin in a post-apocalypse that was precisely brought about by them!

PVP is needed to keep the sandbox open and give a third element of survival, but as I see this mod, zombies should take center stage by far and currently that's not happening (I've seen more shots exchanged between players than zombies). The reward system needs to make PVP challengingly obscure enough so that when you encounter a PVPer it's more like "damn it's a delinquent, there's always bound to be a few" rather than everywhere you go and every player you come across being "welp, here we go again, pew pew pew"

[Magnet (DayZ) 211]

Just move away from the coast, play smart and hopefully you'll be OK. The only times I have been killed or killed other players was on the coast near the major towns where everyone is vying for the same stuff.

Once you move inland, scavenging through the towns and bases you really feel like you're surviving. I generally avoid contact with other players as much as possible, when I'm pushed into a situation out in the "wild" it just makes it all the more fun. I don't aim to kill other players but in some situations it does just make sense, a pre-emptive strike policy of sorts.

So far the game gives you little reason to work together except against other player groups. In my experience most towns can be thoroughly scavenged one up and thus there is no reason for me to constantly watch my back with a tag along. Until there's more reason to work with others I'm going to continue going lone-wolf as much as possible and if I come across someone out there in the wild, well... we'll see what the situation looks like.

TL;DR - I haven't had any problems with PVP, just move inland and learn from your interactions with other players.

Mag.

[cuel 2]

I think it's a great idea to have a humanity system.

An example would be from a very old game, called Ultima Online. There was a karma system and if you PK'd other players your name would turn grey for ~30 minutes, unless you were a known PK'er in which case your name would always be red. Good players that didn't PK and had neutral/good karma had a blue name. Killing monsters/mobs would increase your karma, slowly, while killing other players would decrease it very fast. Guards could be alerted to red players presence inside a city [this is unrelated, i'm just pointing it out] but other than that there were no real punishment except people knew you were a PK'er just from the color of your name.

It's a system about rewards. Non-pk'ers take the tough way and try to scavange their own items while PK'ers take the easy way and just kill people so they can be looted. And thus, they should be awarded differently. Even tho the current system is a very minor "award", it's still acceptable. People can argue that having another model is not an award, but rather a punishment. But it's an active choice that the player made and he knew the consequences. The only thing I feel missing is something for non pk'ers, something minor aswell. Just to show people that you're a good guy, simply put.

Currently I can't/don't trust anyone that I don't know. I don't shoot them unless I feel like they're acting hostile, but I tell them to lower their weapons and stay away. It's a shame since I would like to interact with more people, but taking the risk of dying is simply not worth it. Especially not when you've stayed alive for several hours and have good gear.

[trauma.au 14]

First 5 mins with this system in place, attacked by two separate players, killed them both and lost bout 1000 humanity for defending myself.

[nuttex 51]

First 5 mins with this system in place' date=' attacked by two separate players, killed them both and lost bout 1000 humanity for defending myself.

[/quote']

Pretty much what bothers me the most. You kill in self-defence, you lose. You let yourself get shot (absolutely majority of times, mortally), you lose.

There has to be some other approach to the situation. Maybe the amount of player kills per minute? Like, you lose humanity if more than two people are killed in, say, five minutes.

[Viri (DayZ) 1]

First 5 mins with this system in place' date=' attacked by two separate players, killed them both and lost bout 1000 humanity for defending myself.

[/quote']

Along with this, what about friendly fire incidents? I know you can't really prove that you shot a guy on accident, but I've only played with two friends of mine, and we have gotten in a few incidents where we've shot each other in the fray due to bad positioning. I'm not really up for having a sign being put on my body saying "Hey! I kill players!" when the only time was completely on accident for doing so.

At first I was very supportive of the morality system, but it seems to have too many situational cons in my opinion.

[ZMEY 0]

... I've only played with two friends of mine, and we have gotten in a few incidents where we've shot each other in the fray due to bad positioning...

Probably, good solution is if we could form and join squads with trusted mates (so we can use green squad voice channel), in case of fratricide you dont get any penalty at all.

[Viri (DayZ) 1]

Probably' date=' good solution is if we could form and join squads with trusted mates (so we can use green squad voice channel), in case of fratricide you dont get any penalty at all.

[/quote']

That's actually a good solution, I hadn't thought of that. Great idea!

[oktyabr 53]

... I've only played with two friends of mine' date=' and we have gotten in a few incidents where we've shot each other in the fray due to bad positioning...

[/quote']

Probably, good solution is if we could form and join squads with trusted mates (so we can use green squad voice channel), in case of fratricide you dont get any penalty at all.

Another possibility is the simple "Forgive player" option that's been used on most games with FF for years. Get shot, get a mouse menu option that will let you forgive it and thus waive the humanity penalty.

I, like probably everyone else, have been spending a lot of time brainstorming ideas to help smooth out the PVP and morality stuff. The following are just ideas, I don't even know how good they might be:

"Free target" -- Yup, great idea. Get wounded you have some time to retaliate without penalty. Maybe not perfectly implemented yet but I think the idea is right on track.

"Wrath of God" -- make a player more attractive to zombies based on their humanity level. Super low humanity, zombies like the taste of your brains better than that n00b you were trying to murder.

"Psychopath" -- humanity hits zero you are no longer able to heal yourself. This reflects the mental state of such a psycho that in most real world scenarios expects to die themselves anyway.

"Bandits" -- Ok, I don't know the actual numbers and they don't really matter... it's the concepts here that I want to stress... Everyone starts with a humanity level (1000 currently?), kill other survivors and your humanity goes down. Reach a certain level and you get to wear the "bandit" skin. I think that's the gist of it anyway.

Improve humanity very slowly by time *in game* (not stored on the server)

Improve humanity by killing other bandits. This would be the quickest way to loose that bandit skin and the reputation that goes with it. This alone might help prevent bandits from working together. Some sort of bonus reward for killing a bandit might instantly create a "bounty hunter" role with no other tweaking necessary. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Improve humanity by giving aid to non-bandits (if they will trust you!)

DECREASE humanity by giving aid to bandits! This helps stop bandits aiding other bandits, especially if something like the "Wrath of God" and "Psychopath" ideas are used. Imagine a couple of bandits holding someone at gun point in the hospital trying to persuade them into giving the bandits a blood transfusion.

Bandit skin is acquired at a certain level but it should take a much larger increase in humanity to loose it again... perhaps 1000 or whatever players start with. Easy to get a bandit skin, not so easy to loose it.

Just my $0.02