My own thoughts and reservations regarding the impending morality system

[Drake Sigar 9]

I don't know if this reputation system will work out, but I do know something needed to be done before Day Z's 'elite' player base drove everyone else away.

[anzik 0]

Although I don't completely agree with what Oktyabr wrote (mainly zombies being more sensitive to killers) I strongly agree with his last few points. This idea of bandits kidnapping people to give them transfusion etc. is very interesting indeed.

And of course "bounty/humanity hunting" is also very interesting.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

I don't see the reason for the morality system. Players who murder others are already punished based on their reputation among other players. If another groups sees people murdering survivors, or experience it themselves, then they know to watch out for that particular group. Realistically, you don't know what someone is like before you observe their actions, so There doesn't need to be a magical system that spoils that psychological aspect of the game. People should be careful with the actions they choose and should be paranoid enough about other groups without having to look at what the person has been magically labeled as.

If group A gets murdered by another group, B, without warning, then that doesn't mean that the guys in group B should be punished by a morality system and labeled as bandits for everyone to see. The problem was that group A's leader didn't keep his group safe enough, and so they were punished for it by being attacked. The other group, B, had decided that killing group A was the best method for them to survive, which is a fair enough decision to make. Group B's consequences will come from what others experienced - they committed unprovoked murder, so they are now considered a threat by all of those who know. Everyone from group A now knows that there is a stronger team out there that isn't afraid to kill to survive, while a third group, C, who maybe observed from afar what had happened, will now be weary of group B and might try to eliminate the threat for their own safety. Additionally, the word may spread among survivors that there is a hostile group (B) roaming an area of the map, so friendly groups may form and ally with another against possible threats, like group B.

The greatness of the mod has been that you have no clue what to expect from the people you haven't met yet, and it's the same way for them coming across you. You can choose to avoid them, join them, or make the first strike and kill them to protect yourself - All without being labeled one way or the other. If you want to play the "bandit" role, you can be creative with just how you rob or murder your targets without them being aware of your past, aside from what past experiences they have had with you. Giving people a different model for their morality is just turning them into the "Call of Duty 1337 fragz have to kill everyone that I encounter" player that everyone hates, rather than encouraging role-playing, real paranoia, and clever survival.

A good fix would be to have a way for players to change their own model - possibly limited to one change per day or only at certain locations. This way, people who want to keep their bandit skin for role-playing can use it, and those who don't want to advertise that they are bandits, won't have to. Just like in real life, what is stopping you from just looking normal and going around killing people?

[nuttex 51]

I like Baby's solution.

[bodycount 83]

I am loving the Bandit system. Call of Doody kiddies can have a cool looking model to L337 Snipxorz and other people can have a way to know who the kiddies are either to avoid or to take them out.

Definitely do not remove the Bandit model system. It is a great way to help even out the balance.

[oktyabr 53]

That uncertainty and even the decision to end someone else's "life" so you might better survive is absolutely a key component of this game and I really don't have that big a problem with it.

Just like in real life' date=' what is stopping you from just looking normal and going around killing people?

[/quote']

Where the real problems arise are from bullets remaining anonymous. Most of the time you will never know who killed you or even why. This is one reason why I considered liking the flashing "Player A just killed Player B" on global, rather than mess with the bandid skin and all that entails. In the real world sooner or later someone just killing for the fun of it would be hunted down and >ENDED<, for good. Since this is a game that sort of player will persist because they know all they have to do is respawn and start over again. You then end up with a higher ratio of pure psychopaths than you otherwise might, or in real life. If someone wants to play the PK'ing psycho, fine, let them, but to give them a free ticket to ride again in the form a respawn is unbalancing the rest of the game, at least in my opinion.

By applying the humanity system and the bandit skin you now have a way of applying consequences to such actions, and one that is persistent over respawns. It might not be ideal but in lieu of permanently banning them from the game (to simulate good guys finally catching up with them and taking them out... permanently) it seems to be a reasonable approach to re-balancing that aspect.

It's why I posted my "Wrath of God" and "Psychopath" ideas a couple of posts up. I knew not everyone would like them but if you must, think about them being used *instead* of that bandit skin?

[anzik 0]

I see the bandit system as another way of simulating some in-real-life present aspects as different faces, cloths, body figures etc.. which usually helps identifying perpetrators.

Like in real life, being a thief/murderer you may easily come to some property, but your life is generally harder because of this life style.

And once again, I really like the idea of increasing "value" of "good" fellows like mentioned bounty/humanity hunting etc...

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

That's part of survival. If you're out in the open where another player can kill you without being seen, then that's the risk you take. I think it encourages role-playing and realism to know that you have to be really careful, and extremely patient. People who like to play as the psychopaths are fine with me, since it is something you would expect in a survival game like this. They make the other survivors have a much tougher time, in that they have to prepare/react based on armed threats.

The "Call of Duty" mentality won't be stopped except when server bans are agreed on by moderators and players I suppose. Changing systems in the game itself, like with the morality update, isn't going to prevent these types of people from joining, nor is it going to make their style any less effective. They aren't role-playing, but they do still have to play the game to become powerful enough to do what they want.

An effective survivor group shouldn't have any trouble with kids running around with their starter revolvers. Any that have managed to survive well enough to collect decent weapons have spent a lot of time playing the game now and have turned more into the Psychopath/bandit role.

I think oppositely from you, in that I wouldn't mind to have the death messages removed completely. You could say that I prefer to have it as close to a simulation as possible, where you only learn player names upon meeting them, (maybe still include names popping up when close, to make up for the fact that it's difficult to recognize people in-game immediately like you can in real life) or otherwise being informed by other players (Say you meet someone new and he tells you about a player who is a friend, or somebody who had robbed him before).

Ideally, survivors can have a much wider variety of models that they spawn with. That way, everybody, including bandits, could recognize most of those that they have come across before from longer distances, like you would be able to do in real life. This would mean that specific skins or indicators for bandits wouldn't be necessary, as it would be possible to recognize them based on their normal player model.

edit: Another simple idea could be to assign models for newer players. It could cut down on the amount of new people who you approach, expecting them to know how the game works, but instead they randomly blast away at people and zombies. Maybe this sort of thing could be applied to all characters, sort of indicating how long they've been surviving/their skill level and NOT their moral state.

[oktyabr 53]

You know, I don't disagree with everything you just posted. I like realism and sim too.

But the thing that you are dodging around IS the new players... Think about it, the "old timers" have only been playing this for what, a week now? We had the benefit of playing before psychos with sniper rifles and road side robberies became popular sports. But now consider for a minute that not everyone you are going to meet on the server tonight is experienced, in fact many of them will be joining for the very first time. I have personally walked more than a few people all the way through buying/installing Arma CO, up to their first five minutes as a DayZ survivor. There would have been more but already this game is getting a reputation (with people that have never played it) as a PVP deathfest. The fact that you are far more in danger from other players now than you are from zombies, that the majority of your deaths will be by other players instead of the real core idea of this game, is an indicator that something is unbalanced.

You won't need special skins for new players because there won't be any.

[Credan 0]

That's what makes this mod special. At the very least it removes the players that cant handle opposition. We really don't need to turn into a bunch of hand holders, where those that prey on others are clearly defined from those that don't.

The feeling of no safety, from zombies or other players, is what keeps me playing. The moments of interacting with other players, keeping an eye on and a safe distance from them, whether to trust them or not, is what sets this apart from other games and mods, in my opinion.

A few of the bandit-type of players I've seen are part of clans, simply shooting those that are not with them, so maybe they can keep the excitement going while the Humanity System is giving a reason for others to not PvP.

A solution maybe to have the Humanity System be an option for the server to use.

[lolrade 1]

To be honest, I feel the morality system is what will destroy this mod. Personally, I feel varied spawning points are a better way to deal with the PvP issues. If you don't start near many other players, you'll either learn to survive and play the game correctly, or die. It really would be simple to implement and wouldn't absolutely ruin the immersiveness. Plus, if you're alone for a while to start, you'll probably be a lot more willing to work with the first humans you find.

EDIT: Plus, I don't think a morality system in a survival game really makes much sense. You're supposed to look at every situation with not what is right or wrong (which has a lot of gray areas anyway), but with the mindset of what will keep you alive.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Human players are trying to survive. They can think, use weapons, stay hidden, use coordination, and most importantly, be greedy. Why shouldn't they be more threatening than the zombies? If you feel like the zombies aren't enough of a threat, then what you want is for the zombies to be buffed somehow. Surely that would be a better way to emphasize the zombie threat, rather than creating a new faction that enforces the "shoot on sight" attitude.

If you're letting yourself get caught in the open, or using main roads to travel and not planning ahead for other survivors who are going to be looking for an easy target, then you're not doing well enough to survive. When you get murdered by another player, you should learn from your mistakes. They aren't using cheats or exploiting bugs, they're just playing a zombie survival simulator and exploiting players who are weaker survivors than they are. Most of the time, killing another player is done to survive, whether it's out of desperation or just to make life a little easier.

This game doesn't need to be changed to hold anyone's hand. It benefits the stronger and more patient survivors, while punishing the weak and impatient ones - teaching them to learn from their mistakes.

Xero, I suggest trying to sneak as much as possible around zombies. After a while, they really aren't too much of a threat unless you really screw up. The fact that they are hard to shoot makes them enough of a challenge to actually punish players for alerting them.

When it comes to rooftop snipers, you have to be very proactive and patient. Use buildings to sneak around and move slow when in a dangerous area (which you should be doing anyway, remember there are zombies around). The sniper has a lot of area to be watching, which means they can be seen from all around as well. When you're scavenging a city, take it slow and keep your eyes and ears open for any other survivors. If you spot somebody, then assess the threat and react accordingly.

Here's a video showing my group handling that exact situation. Sorry you can't hear them, they were using the in-game chat. Also sorry for the bad video quality and the background noise.

I suppose we could have left and avoided him, but we needed the medical supplies to survive, as you can see me using our last bloodpack, and to get more of them we had to take out that guy who would have tried killing us if we weren't careful. It's worth noting that if this were after the update, I would be punished and start turning into a bandit because of what I did for my team. (and for the small friendly fire incident in the beginning). The sniper was not a strong survivor, as he had picked a completely open rooftop and made himself into a huge threat to everyone in the area, so he was naturally punished.

[oktyabr 53]

No, I'm saying that this mod is called "DayZ", not "DayPVP". It isn't the new guy trying to learn the game, and how to enjoy it. It's not about guys like me that actually LIKE the challenge of going and trying to get my own stuff, rather than letting some one else do the work (you needed those "medical supplies" THAT badly? Really???)

It's the fact that guys like YOU are apparently bored with the zombies so have decided to make it your own kind of game. Sure, I like the challenges provided by the this mod's PVP component... but that's what it should be, a *component* of the game, not the game itself. "Buffed" zombies??? No. Zombies in large enough numbers, spread out over enough of the map (more zombies in the woods for starters) and dangerous enough that the focus for the majority of the "survivors" is put back on *surviving a zombie apocalypse*, not a bunch of guys that have been on long enough to have a group formed, improved weapons and nothing better to do.

Yes, PVP, psychos with sniper rifles (what else are they good for?) and even road side robberies are an accepted part of the game. But when the game gets easy enough that you find yourself trying to perfect your ambush techniques, and not because you need to do it to survive... there is something out of balance.

Anyone that has played this game enough knows that with careful movement you can cross Cherno alone, day or night, without getting killed by a zombie... even though there might be 1200+ on the server. Is it a zoo? Are you mugging people walking through the zoo because you have gotten bored poking the animals with a stick?

More zombies, "buffed" if you like, and/or taming the rampant PVP that happens just for the fun of it. Bandit skins and humanity tell me that the devs are aware of this imbalance too. Whether you think it's a good idea or not I think it's better than nothing... if we want this mod to keep growing and improving?

[lolrade 1]

No offense, Oktyabr, but I don't think you get the driving "survival" concept behind this mod. Have you watched any Romero movies? Or perhaps The Walking Dead? A key theme in a lot of shows and movies that are zombie or apocalypse based, is that zombies are just an obstacle, and many times the real threat are other human beings. It adds an entirely new dimension to this mod that no other Arma 2 zombie mod has. Deciding who you can and cannot trust should be left up to the players in the situations that they find themselves in. Just like in an actual apocalypse scenario, you will learn to adapt and overcome to become stronger than everyone else, or you will die.

This being said, if there really is a huge issue, I believe there are many different ( and better) ways to deal with it rather than a "this guy kills people" banner. (like my earlier suggestion)

[lolrade 1]

While you are correct about it being about surviving a zombie apocalypse, I feel that if this mod wants to continue to distinguish itself from the other "shoot npcs" mods, it needs to keep that human greed as a threat. Also, in The Walking Dead, there was also the trouble with that other survivor group with Randal. If I remember correctly, there was a full on firefight. Not only that, but there was almost a fight with the other group in the nursing home. Human against human struggle is what will keep this mod fresh and fun. Let's face it, arma 2's AI is not exactly a pillar for an entire experience to lean on, especially when all it does is run at you.

EDIT: I'm also not arguing against co-op one bit. I usually steer clear of PvP games. Also, a person is not exactly a lazy useless bastard if they HAD to kill someone for food or water, they're just surviving, exactly what this mod is setting out to simulate.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Oktyabr, understand that my first thought for a zombie buff would be to spread them into forests and such, so we're on the same page there.

It sounds more and more like you just want a zombie buff, which is fine with me. I don't understand why or how you think that a bandit model for people who kill survivors is going to shift the emphasis away from PvP at all. It's almost like creating a new faction made just FOR PvP. If hostile survivors remain to be such a huge issue for you, then perhaps you should try pushing for non-PvP servers instead.

Many people love how the PvP aspect has been, everyone was on a fair playing field. Just because you think that the mod will die because of the PvP doesn't mean everyone else agrees with you.

Edit: Like Comrade said, co-op is a great thing, honestly the best part of the mod is working together with survivors. That doesn't mean that you can't work cooperatively against other survivors when necessary. Also, I don't just set out with my group to kill other survivors. We try to hit certain towns based on our needs and react accordingly to any other survivors we encounter. If we find someone who can benefit us, then we'll pick him up. If we find someone who is a threat to us, we either avoid or kill them. If we find someone who has the things we need to survive and they're an easy target, then we might just take it. Most of the time, however, it's easiest to just evade other survivors. What's so wrong with playing that way? 95% of a group's time is divided up between traveling, sneaking in-and-out of towns for loot, and fighting off zombies when they're alerted. I'm glad there's such a massive amount of tension when encountering other survivors.

[oktyabr 53]

No offense' date=' Oktyabr, but I don't think you get the driving "survival" concept behind this mod. Have you watched any Romero movies? Or perhaps The Walking Dead? A key theme in a lot of shows and movies that are zombie or apocalypse based, is that zombies are just an obstacle, and many times the real threat are other human beings. It adds an entirely new dimension to this mod that no other Arma 2 zombie mod has. Deciding who you can and cannot trust should be left up to the players in the situations that they find themselves in. Just like in an actual apocalypse scenario, you will learn to adapt and overcome to become stronger than everyone else, or you will die.

This being said, if there really is a huge issue, I believe there are many different ( and better) ways to deal with it rather than a "this guy kills people" banner. (like my earlier suggestion)

[/quote']

I'm not easily offended, I assure you ;) And yes, I'm old enough to have seen some of those Romero movies at the theater... when they first played. I'm a zombie junky (have you read World War Z yet?) but think the Walking Dead is too fake, and a survival/holocaust type of nut too as that more fits my generation than "zombies". Try Robert Merle's book "Malevil" (survivors of a nuclear war), Stephen King's "The Stand" (disease but no zombies), Robert McCammon's "Swan Song" (global nuclear war), or how about "The Day After" (movie), the slightly more obscure "Miracle Mile" or the real classic use-guns-to-survive 1962 "Panic in Year Zero" (zero being the first year after the end of civilization). But you are also missing the key ingredient in ALL successful sci-fi books, tv shows an movies (zombies, global nuclear war, worldwide pandemic, alien invasion, it's all sci-fi)... they are NEVER about who is stronger. The good examples are always about the people struggling to remain PEOPLE, humanity if you like, in the face of great adversity.

And maybe that's it, my real problem. I'm a little older, a little more experienced, and I've played a lot of games that eventually turned into less memorable SUCK. I have higher expectations, or hopes perhaps.

There are a TON of games I could be playing with zombies in them and at least that many more where I can square off against human opponents in PVP (I have years of my life dedicated just to PVP) but DayZ offered something different... a fragile balance between the two. It was a taste of that, in "the early days" (LOL, what a week ago?) that got me excited and makes me post magazine article long things like this. This mod has REAL potential to become something great, as long as that fragile balance is kept in check.

I see where you are going with the "A key theme in a lot of shows and movies that are zombie or apocalypse based, is that zombies are just an obstacle, and many times the real threat are other human beings." line, I really do. But you are really talking about a linear show script, not real life and certainly not a game. How popular do you think Walking Dead would be if the show quickly degenerated into just getting ambushed and trading bullets with other survivors? No one ever shot a zombie, or at least rarely, and zombies were no real threat because you KNEW you would only find them in towns... with people in them no less... and just by crouching down you could walk all over town, right by them, without ever firing a single shot. At a zombie anyway. Hmmm?

Quick story... the first time I ever traded shots with another player in this mod it was because he wasn't a very good road side robber and I was a better tactical shot. I dropped him. I walked over to his body laying on the ground and realized he wasn't quite dead. Instead of finishing the job (like I would now) I decided to try the "bandage other" option, etc. and went to work fixing him back up, seriously with the thought than what better way to show I'm friendly... and maybe make a partner in this mod... than to heal him rather than kill him. He got up off the ground and shot me. I told him what I had been doing and he apologized frantically, saying he thought I was just looting him and that he had been unconscious and thought he had just gotten up (magically healed, perhaps?) Said if he had known what I was doing he never would have shot me. ~shrug~

*Seriously* tense player encounters should be more like tv shows, movies and books. Take the movie "The Darkest Hour". One moment you know that the main character would just like to KILL this one @@@hole, then the bad thing happens and next, realizing that they are a few of the rare survivors, put their differences aside and work together. One moment you want to kill someone, next moment, due to circumstances, big things are now made into petty differences and the real character of human survival comes out. Your worst enemy is suddenly your friend and your best hope for survival. THIS is the sort of thing I hope for in a game like Day Z. But it requires a threat big enough that whatever made you want to tear each others throats out yesterday seems stupid and childish today. You can pretend that you are roleplaying what makes sense to you, what might happen in real life (or some stupid TV show), but unless a seriously scary threat of impending doom is there, whatever you are doing is just going through the motions. It's not "survival". It's robbing people, ganking, or whatever under the pretense of survival because the game is unbalanced.

Is your idea of spawning in more remote locations a good one? Maybe if we were playing on a world sized map rather than a relatively small piece of land. As it stands now it doesn't matter where you spawn. You still have to go to the cities if you want to find anything worth your time (yes, I know there are other places to go but not with the easy rewards of the cities) and nowadays there is always at least one sniper laying in wait, shooting you just because he can (having absolutely NOTHING to do with RP'ing survival). If you make it that far. You'll probably get robbed first for your very valuable pistol! And that can of beans! Or that canteen of water (forget that there is a whole ocean nearby that is safe to drink), or those medical supplies! Come on, none of that stuff is that rare or even that desirable. Really I think that zombies need to be more wide spread, in larger numbers, and much harder to just slip by. Another way to tweak it would be to have nothing but say 10 slot servers. How much PVP do you think would happen if there were 100+ zombies per survivor and you might play for hours without ever seeing another human being? I'm not seriously suggesting that a 10 slot server would be very popular... I'm trying to make a point.

Is the bandit skin and humanity system the perfect answer? No. I've said it before I'll say it again. No. Is it better than just leaving things alone and maybe see the Day Z servers turn into nothing but partially empty PVP (or TVT more likely) wastelands? YES.

See my "Wrath of God" and "Psychopath" concepts a page or so back.

Look, I'm not against PVP, I've said that at least half a dozen times in half a dozen threads. I just don't want the game to become all about PVP. I've been playing this mod since 1.2 and I've seen the path that this mod seemed to be taking. Don't believe me? Ask yourself this... and do your best to answer honestly. Where do you see this mod heading without "humanity" or something else to help balance it? What would you like this mod to become, in a perfect world? What would it play like? What do you enjoy most about the mod the way it is right now? Think about that for a second. Now how different are those answers if this mod used a map 10x this size with 10x as many zombies and the same number of people? My answers would be pretty much the same.

[bodycount 83]

The problem is that supplies are so abundant that there is no reason to kill each other except for bigger and better guns or for the fun of it. I found enough ammunition and food/water to last for 2 weeks in game time from about two towns. Clear through one apartment block and you will have enough to fill three bags to the brim. Plus you find bags everywhere. Not to mention the ease of finding game. At no point do I ever feel desperate enough to have to rob from someone to survive. I have to eat every hour or so anyway in game. I eat more food than the nutty professor. CAKES AND PIES CAKES AND PIES!

I know this would probably be frowned against but maybe make items a lot more rare so that people are more desperate. I found a map/compass/knife/matches/plethora of ammunition all in one supermarket. Then 20 minutes later it all re spawned new guns/gear/ammo. Along with ten cans of food and a case of soda.

Supplies are NOT scarce. The only thing that is scarce are the good PvP weapons that you have to camp for hours straight at the airfields to get your hands on. Silenced M4's, Thermal scoped sniper rifles, NVG's.

You got a revolver but only a few rounds...that other guy has a glock but no mags. Try and trade with them...or steal from their bag when they aren't looking, or kill them dead and take what they have.

As it stands now loot is freaking everywhere. It's like a canned food factory/ammunition storehouse in some places.

Even the lazies bandit will have bags so full of gear they have no reason to live the bandit life.

Desperation is what makes survival horror more exciting. Food is running short. But I found some shotgun ammo but I have no shotgun. Hey there is a guy up there with a shotgun. Maybe he will trade with me? Maybe I can get the jump on him. Maybe I can befriend him and hunt together.

Right now the PvP is solely for the sake of PvP.

Remember when Lloyd was stuck in the prison in the stand gnawing on a raw rat?

Remember when Andy was starving in the Gun Store in Dawn of the Dead?

'Member this? Tomorrow-morrow Land!

'Member this? The River of Light!

'Member this? Skyraft!

[lolrade 1]

First of all, thanks for the great response. Secondly, while I agree with you about The Walking Dead, I was just using it as an example. (and yes, I have read world war z). Really, my main argument comes down to this: don't take the freedom of choice from players to solve an issue. I would agree to a zombie buff of sorts (maybe players would be more keen on alliances if survival was more of a challenge?) but the humanity system just punishes players for dealing with situations in a way they deem necessary. It might even make the PvP problem worse when players are afraid to fire on potential threats due to the humanity hit. I just feel it is too flawed, gamey, and relatively unfair to be in DayZ. Instead of the current system, I feel as if everyone would benefit more if the dev team explored better options.

[oktyabr 53]

First of all' date=' thanks for the great response. Secondly, while I agree with you about The Walking Dead, I was just using it as an example. (and yes, I have read world war z). Really, my main argument comes down to this: don't take the freedom of choice from players to solve an issue. I would agree to a zombie buff of sorts (maybe players would be more keen on alliances if survival was more of a challenge?) but the humanity system just punishes players for dealing with situations in a way they deem necessary. It might even make the PvP problem worse when players are afraid to fire on potential threats due to the humanity hit. I just feel it is too flawed, gamey, and relatively unfair to be in DayZ. Instead of the current system, I feel as if everyone would benefit more if the dev team explored better options.

[/quote']

Thanks for the concise reply. I in no way want the freedom of choice removed from any players. To quote a game developer that I admire: "Removing realism to promote realism DOES NOT WORK and negatively affects the entire game design...." But I do agree with the DayZ devs (and probably the majority of the players too) that something needs to be done to re-balance the mod's focus. The bandit skin and humanity system is better than nothing at this time, IMHO, but that's it.

I honestly think people would behave much more realistically if the ratio of zombies, land and player slots were highly tweaked. Many more zombies on much more land for the same amount of players... that will never really happen (not with the current engine anyway) or many fewer players would have the same sort of realism "enhancement". But no one will do that one either. So more zombies of an improved flavor that are more aggressive, harder to sneak past, and like long walks in the woods.

Ok, bandit skins aren't ideal and worthless in the dark. I have to fall back to my first two ideas, where zombies are more interested in players with a lower humanity score. I don't mean MUCH more interested and I don't mean "slightly" either... it would be something that would have to be tweaked. The second concept is really only designed to hinder the true psychopaths, the ones that want to sit in a clock tower and shoot everyone on the streets below because they can. Low enough humanity you can no longer heal yourself AND you attract zombies. Neither are perfect concepts but they would survive respawns, being persistent, would discourage wanton PK'ing without eliminating it entirely, would make a potentially lethal robbery expensive enough (humanity lowering from killing raising zombie awareness) that it would be done with forethought... more for true survival and less just because it's fun... errr... because it's "role playing". :s

[anzik 0]

Well, this is still explicitely punishing the bandits. IRL its police&justice system job to do. In DayZ there is no such thing, so either some players team up and hunt killers or crime is left unpunished.

As I stated, I see the way to solve excessive murdering by increasing each survivor value.

In case of bandit/humanity model as Oktyober mentioned, helping fellow bandit is no use to bandit -> he needs to help "good" survivor.

But what if the value of survivor is increased by different specialization of different survivors?

What about randomly assign survivor some set of skills on spawn, like medic to treat fractured bones (and until you are fixed, you have to take painkillers). Mechanic which can repair cars/helis and maybe weapons if some sort of material fatigue is introduced. Even cook which can "convert" found food to quality one with higher blood restore...

For 40 people on server (as on EU1&2 where I play) I think some 5 different classes should be enough. Just to assure lone wolfs occasionally need some help from others. And If they team up, then "good" players have to team up also and eliminate them as threat or be eliminated.

And of course value of survivor is also increased by increased threat from environment.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Does the humanity system actually do anything to stop people who want to just go around killing people? Like I said, it just creates a faction that is meant to be attacked.There aren't many things you can do to stop people from preying on eachother. I want the zombies to be a bigger and more widespread threat, but that won't stop people from killing other survivors - In fact, it may just backfire, since it would be harder to get supplies through scavenging, so groups that just murder unsuspecting survivors would be made more effective. Lowering the amount of loot you can find would have a similar effect.

Your "psychopath" ideas are pretty neat actually, but really I don't think any sort of numbers system like that benefits a zombie survival simulator, it would get to the point where the focus of the game is on keeping your magic numbers low. I don't like the idea of a class system at all, that's way too arcadey with skills and such. Personally, I'd much rather just have everyone able to do what they want and all on a level playing field like it was.

[Goose Springsteen 9]

Hey Guys,

Bandit here (after 2 kills!) and I thought I might contribute my perspective to this very good discussion you are having.

From my perspective it seems like the fact that I now have a bandit skin is actually an incentive for me to eliminate any survivors who I don't know personally because I can't take the risk of them killing me before I kill them. Previously I have engaged in some PVP (I've probably killed about 10 players in the week that I have been playing and assisted in the killing of half as many more) but the essential point is that I could always pass up an opportunity to kill someone without the very real danger of that "benevolence" getting me killed.

So effectively it seems that this bandit system is just going to create a great roundabout of death and destruction. People see bandits so they shoot on sight eventually becoming bandits themselves who will get shot on sight so they must shoot other players on sight for their own preservation.

I think that if no changes are made you might find in a week or two that a majority of players (or at least a sizable minority) are rolling around in the bandit skin because of actions they have felt forced to take.

[Cowthulhu (DayZ) 0]

I think that if no changes are made you might find in a week or two that a majority of players (or at least a sizable minority) are rolling around in the bandit skin because of actions they have felt forced to take.

agreed, I like the idea of a morality system but i feel its kind of bull shit that I'm now shoot on sight because i defended my self (the guy shot first and like hell if I'm going to let him get a head shot), i know there is a system in place to try and prevent this but there is a lot loopholes that can turn a good player into a bandit just for trying to survive

[Sam Maunder 40]

Okay people - As we're in Alpha we're always listening to idea from the people about what we do, how we can improve etc.

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue. We're not going to turn PvP off because DayZ would just die. In ANY public server on ANY public mission you're going to find those who want to kill players for the sake of killing players.

Personally from my point of my view I rarely get killed by other survivors and get along just great with everyone I meet because well...everyone here wants to do co-op. One must also remember you need to set your own goals currently such as 'Most zombie kills' etc because we are still working on the mod.

But this brings the issue up about: What can we actually do for PvP that isn't turning off PvP or banning everyone who kills a lot. We've tried to add the bandit model in order to show your choices: Like in fable if you're evil you look evil and everyone is scared of you, but of course you can still get along with some people.

There is very little we can do to control 12 servers, 300+ people and some random killing from time to time. If you think you know how we can solve it please be my guest and tell me.