1st/3rd Person Perspective, Immersion and Awareness.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I realise there are many topics on this subject already but non to my knowledge have suggested what I am about to.

Intro: Gubbins to clear the air

Lets get the obvious out the way.

Clearly there are good arguments for and against. Though non that I have read, have ever really expanded much further than the concerns raised by Rocket. In that: with first person you gain a sense of immersion that is unmatched but on the other hand without third person you loose the heightened awareness you gain from this perspective. To loose either one is at a detriment to the game but to keep both is to compromise the positive aspects of the other.

Most threads I've seen do one of several things: suggest keeping both, removing one perspective in favor of the other and the other suggestions either limit or improve a perspective as a compromise for the loss of the latter. Rocket has even suggested pretty much all of the above and also suggested making it harder to change between them: either by having it set server side or as a permanent player choice in the menu system.

My suggestion: Meat of the thread

Keep both (admittedly I have a bias opinion; I like both) but still i can see the problems they cause. If you are to "keep both" the associated problems need resolving.

Recommendations:

First Person: Player awareness needs to be increased

• FOV slider
  
• Independent head moment (needs to stay)
  
• Sound needs a tune up
  

Third Person: Maintain awareness without compromising immersion

• Remove cross heirs
  
• Minimum aiming dead zone
  
• Maximum FOV limit
  
• (Maybe but not likely) decrease sound clarity
  

Proposed compromise: Third person is useful as a tool; as long as it isn't exploited to be used as the single which way to play the game. That's why I intend to propose a change; that would shape third person more as a tool.

Feature Description: Idea I'm putting forward

To transition too and from: 1st/3rd person; the player must hold Alt+Scroll Wheel.

Essentially this has three functions:

• Holding Alt on its own would do as it does in Arma; allowing you to free look.
  
• Then by scrolling the mouse wheel in conjunction; you'd be able to change your FOV quickly.
  
• Then once you reach the upper 1st person FOV limit; you'd transition into third person.
  

Though after that and this is the important bit; once you let go of "Alt" you then transition back to 1st person.

Impact of feature: this changes "free look" and the third person perspective into more of a tactical view; increasing options available to you on an in game level. The cost of this limits the player to using the third person perspective at choice occasions. The implication being: you'd need to preform every other task from First person.

Just to point out the obvious some more: this system has clear parallels with the Elder Scrolls games on PC; in that you also use the scroll wheel to adjust FOV/perspective.

Hopefully this gives you a well rounded view of the proposed changes; I do realise I haven't covered the full impact of said changes. So if you do have any questions concerning which; please leave me a comment and I'll get back to you.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Rpatto92

[BelMarduk 169]

Its far more simple than that. Keep choice of first/third person as it is, with one change. Ray cast third person view to first person view for zeds and players. So you would see all landscape/map features in third person (walls/trees/objects, the edge of the deer stand, or dock, the junk car etc...) You would not however see any zeds, or players if you could not see them in first person.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Its far more simple than that. Keep choice of first/third person as it is, with one change. Ray cast third person view to first person view for zeds and players. So you would see all landscape/map features in third person (walls/trees/objects, the edge of the deer stand, or dock, the junk car etc...) You would not however see any zeds, or players if you could not see them in first person.

That kinda defeats the point of even having 3rd person; at that point you've eliminated 3rd person and forced the player to use 1st person at all times, instead of making it a tool to be used on occasions. Also its quite an artificial way for doing things, one that I don't think Rocket would approve of. I could however see it working in a limited fashion; like having the game only render characters up to a set distance from 3rd person but over-wise you may as well have removed it all together.

[BelMarduk 169]

I disagree. Personally the only reason I use 3rd person is the view I get to see is more natural as it were. You can see a ledge you're walking on, or the edge of a ladder etc. currently if we are on opposite sides of a wall, 3rd person (as it is now) would allow us to see each other. My idea keeps the view of 3rd person for the entire map as it is now. I could see the junk pile you're standing next to (even though I could NOT see it in first person), but I could not see you. It is absolutely possible. I think it would add to the immersion, doesn't require any new control sets (game controls). Third person (for me at least and I would imagine many others) is used for easier navigation. A person is far more aware of his surroundings IRL than be conveyed in a video game. when I get into combat situations I jump into first person as its much easier to fight in first. That said, if I cant see someone in 1st person then I shouldn't be able to see them in 3rd. Yet keep the 'physical awareness' of surroundings that third affords.

[taco241 393]

I took my time to read the OPs post and it's actually a pretty good solution.

You got my vote.

[God Dan 62]

My only problem with first person is how the head bobs crazily. If there was some setting or something that could change that, I would be all for changing 3rd person like that.

Edited February 19, 2013 by God Dan

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

My only problem with first person is how the head bobs crazily. If there was some setting or something that could change that, I would be all for changing 3rd person like that.

Oh man you'll be glad you commented here; you can turn off the head bobble by going into: options, then game options and lowering head bobble down. Now go.. experience DayZ from a whole new perspective. :D

[thehero 119]

I like 3rd person all for the same reasons everyone else does but I also like it to look at my character but op's idea isn't bad maybe a little tweaking is all

[tiresomehoopla 37]

I say 3rd person should zoom in close or even to 1st while next to walls. Or, the closer you get to an object the closer the camera gets to your player, and the sides get blurry when right beside an object. The main reason I don't like 3rd person is because people use it to see over walls while staying out of view/danger themselves. I'm trying hard to contain my anger towards that matter.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I disagree. Personally the only reason I use 3rd person is the view I get to see is more natural as it were. You can see a ledge you're walking on, or the edge of a ladder etc. currently if we are on opposite sides of a wall, 3rd person (as it is now) would allow us to see each other. My idea keeps the view of 3rd person for the entire map as it is now. I could see the junk pile you're standing next to (even though I could NOT see it in first person), but I could not see you. It is absolutely possible. I think it would add to the immersion, doesn't require any new control sets (game controls). Third person (for me at least and I would imagine many others) is used for easier navigation. A person is far more aware of his surroundings IRL than be conveyed in a video game. when I get into combat situations I jump into first person as its much easier to fight in first. That said, if I cant see someone in 1st person then I shouldn't be able to see them in 3rd. Yet keep the 'physical awareness' of surroundings that third affords.

To be honest a control change would probably be really easy; in fact i could probably set it up now for myself. The difficult part comes in binding those two keys together; so that when a player decides to change their layout it still works. It'd actually be much harder to tell the game not to render a player only in 3rd person; than it really would be to simply change a control.

Anyway your starting to win me over; perhaps if you could see players that you've seen recently from 1st person then this would be once again a useful tool but the very fact that you are still able to roam around, across fields, hills you, name it in 3rd person: takes away from the immersion. Having to make the explicit choice of changing to 3rd person when its need; breaks up the decision process, making it a tool instead of a way of playing all the time. Essentially what this does; is it flips a coin, instead of using 3rd person to identify a player or zombie, then switching to 1st person to interact. The game would keep you mostly in first person with the option to switch to 3rd person but then by virtue of the control system be pulled back into the 1st person perspective.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I took my time to read the OPs post and it's actually a pretty good solution.

You got my vote.

Thanks for taking the time to read, I know there's a lot of rubbish but I needed to get it out of the way; over-wise people would bring it up and i'd be forced to back track.

If you have any contributions to add; maybe some improvements to the core idea, then feel free to leave them.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I like 3rd person all for the same reasons everyone else does but I also like it to look at my character but op's idea isn't bad maybe a little tweaking is all

Thank you for the suggestion.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I say 3rd person should zoom in close or even to 1st while next to walls. Or, the closer you get to an object the closer the camera gets to your player, and the sides get blurry when right beside an object. The main reason I don't like 3rd person is because people use it to see over walls while staying out of view/danger themselves. I'm trying hard to contain my anger towards that matter.

Yes people do, do that but for good reason. Games lack a sense of awareness that people get in the "reals" and it sort of fills that gap for them; so I'm attempting to find a way of keeping it without completely ruining the level of awareness it gives you but at the same time persuading people to use 1st person more actively to retain the immersion you get from an FPS. Hopefully as this systems is layout; people won't be able to just run through an area in 3rd person and unwittingly see over walls, where little John might be hiding with his hatchet. Hence it becomes a tool you can use to actively seek out cover, players or zombie but you can't just stubble across them.

[WiFiN 55]

That kinda defeats the point of even having 3rd person; at that point you've eliminated 3rd person and forced the player to use 1st person at all times, instead of making it a tool to be used on occasions. Also its quite an artificial way for doing things, one that I don't think Rocket would approve of. I could however see it working in a limited fashion; like having the game only render characters up to a set distance from 3rd person but over-wise you may as well have removed it all together.

Seeing people over walls you can't reach over (and yes, you can't.) and around the corners without exposing your head at least is not "awareness". It's bullshit, and nothing can justify it in a game where staying hidden is the key to survial. So no - third person was ok in arma at some point, but there is no place for it in DayZ. At least in it's current form.

[Max Planck 7174]

Its far more simple than that. Keep choice of first/third person as it is, with one change. Ray cast third person view to first person view for zeds and players. So you would see all landscape/map features in third person (walls/trees/objects, the edge of the deer stand, or dock, the junk car etc...) You would not however see any zeds, or players if you could not see them in first person.

If this is possible it would be an excellent solution.

Both 1st and 3rd would be viable ways to play, and with the exploitable aspects of 3rd person eliminated, we could all play together regardless of preference.

Nice.

[Hellfire1014 12]

It's bullshit, and nothing can justify it in a game where staying hidden is the key to survial.

What staying hidden isn't the key to survival? That means I should go out into an open field to survive, and just run everywhere freely? Yea do that, and tell me how it works out.

Topic creator it's a really great idea. I don't disagree with the idea, but I think they choose to keep third person for fear it would alienate people who like to play in third person.

Belmarduk that's an awesome idea as well. Never knew/thought about that.

Maybe if neither of those features are added they can just decrease the field of view for third person making it closer to the player like a lot of third person shooters. Like Resident Evil.

[kingkrabbe.#bof 35]

Based on my DayZ mod experience I would say that the immersion in 3rd person view is higher for me than in 1st person. I can see my character, I can see her/him struggling, crouching, doing stuff, grabbing stuff, I can see her/his loadout (and clothing, what's the point of clothing (aside warmth) when you can't see your char?): I'm connected with my char because I see it. In first person, I only see hands on weapons. Also, the first person navigation/turning in DayZ mod is horrible - so there should be huge changes imo if they want to exclude 3rd person in DayZ SA.

I agree that it's kind of lame when you can see over walls and around corners. IRL you could peek around corners without pushing half your body and your whole head in the open (like in DayZ mod 1st person lean) so that's to add.

What I would like to see is some kind of dynamic 3rd person: when you get near a wall/object, the camera moves/zooms in and stays somewhere near your left shoulder: you see the char much bigger (only head and shoulder) and you can't see above walls. You still could see around corners, but not that easily... and maybe there could be some way to program it so that you couldn't turn your head towards the wall to see around it.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

The view-angle rendering that BelMarduk mentions is a perfectly reasonable solution.

In conjunction with your "Alt+scroll" control, it would allow a player to glance and gain awareness of their own character, without exploiting the ability to track other players around corners or over walls.

In fact, I'd go so far as to allow ONLY your own character to render while in 3dp (no players, no zeds. no loot, no vehicles) regardless of LOS.

Consider it "concentrating on yourself rather than your surroundings"

I use 3dp myself. I like to see what my character is up to, and it can be REALLY handy when trying to tell how far you stick out of cover, or if you're about to fall off a roof.

The fact is, if it's exploitable it WILL BE exploited. I'm not accusing anyone, just pointing out a basic fact of the matter.

This subject has been done to death. And though there are a couple of decent thoughts here, it really wasn't worth creating ANOTHER new topic on it.

EDIT:

Went back and highlighted a bit, since this far down the page nobody is even reading eachothers posts.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Chabowski

[Positronica 30]

No offense OP, but your suggestion is a waste because it's an attempt at a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Third person view as it currently exists in DayZ is not a flaw in the gameplay that players need to somehow be weened off of. It's a perfectly acceptable way to play the game that a huge number of players find to be very enjoyable. It's not cheesy or cheating or somehow less real. The problem with your post is that from the very beginning you make the statement that first person is somehow more immersive than third person as if it's a fact. The truth though, is that for a lot of players, first person is actually LESS immersive than third person. The reason being that in first person you lose all spatial awareness of your character's body, your peripheral vision is far more restricted, and your ability to keep track of what's at your character's feet and how his body is positioned in relation to adjacent objects becomes MUCH more difficult. For a lot of players, those negatives towards immersion more than offset the gains that first person provides, and for those players, adding punishments or inducements that try to encourage or force them into first person view leads to LESS immersive gameplay, which is something that should be avoided.

As for other suggestions in this thread, such as keeping certain objects hidden in third person view, those are just poor ideas, too. It's hugely immersion breaking if a player can see a part of the world and that area looks clear, but then suddenly another player or zombie just pops into existence. The only reasonable restriction on third person that has been presented in any thread is having the camera pull in on your character if your up against a wall or other such obstacle, however such a feature would only be acceptable if it was extremely fluid and bug free, but ultimately it's still a waste of programming time when there's so many other useful, game-enhancing features that could be added instead.

I mean, let's be real, the only time another player's choice of first person vs. third person affects you or impacts your gameplay is sometimes during PvP, and frankly this game has WAY too much PvP as it is already. Ideally the game will focus much more heavily on encouraging players to cooperate against PvE threats while expanding the humanity system to punish random ganking and panic KOS behavior. If you take PvP out of the equation, then the whole first person vs. third person debate becomes moot, unless you're obsessed with the fact that some players are enjoying the game in other ways than you are, or if you're convinced that they just don't know what's actually more fun, and that if you force them to play your way, they'll eventually thank you for it.

[dallas 5195]

The same way third person players accepts the flaws of third person, first person players also need to acknowledge the limitations of their preferred view setting.

Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, Real Virtuality or DayZ for that matter was never intended as a pure first person shooter. Third person whether you like it or not, is a legit and integrated part of the gameplay and editable difficulty settings is a part of BI's philosophy of creating a open and flexible platform for user-content. BattleEye does not globally ban you for using third person on third person servers. It's actually acceptable to use third person on third person servers and people playing on third person servers, accept the pros and cons of third person, just like people preferring first person, accepts the pros and corns of first person.

I understand that DayZ isn't synonymous with ArmA, but though out DayZ's existence third person servers have been a very popular feature of the game. Third person was not added by Rocket to appeal to COD players or to increase DayZ's popularity, third person was simply a core part of the engine and thus naturally became a part of DayZ too.

DayZ or ArmA is not designed as a pure first person shooter and therefor first person view isn't mandatory, when you play DayZ or ArmA. Also because of BI's design decision, where the playable unit is more a vehicle, an actual entity, a body, rather than the traditional floating camera, first person view is not without flaws. Looking over your shoulder often clips through your body, changing stances and trying to fit your body behind cover is often unintuitive and the disconnect between head as a player camera and your remaining body, often leads you to expose body parts, which easily can cause your death. Climbing ladders in first person isn't the most beautiful part of ArmA's player animations, I'm not staying Donkey Kong had better ladder climbing animations, I'm just saying they were smoother and more aesthetical.

I'd rather see the carrot than the stick.

Instead of attempting to dismantle third person view, I'd rather see some emphasis placed developing first person view. Maybe the standalone can benefit from some of the love character animations, such as reloading is receiving in ArmA 3. Maybe more people would embrace the immersiveness of first person, if first person was a more pleasant and smooth experience. I'm not arguing for COD floating camaras, just a bit more attention to ironing out the kinks. Maybe if first person servers saw increased activity, first person players would find less cause to join third person servers and become less occupied with our preferred way of playing DayZ.

Maybe the sollution isn't to break third person, but to fix first person.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Dallas

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Seeing people over walls you can't reach over (and yes, you can't.) and around the corners without exposing your head at least is not "awareness". It's bullshit, and nothing can justify it in a game where staying hidden is the key to survial. So no - third person was ok in arma at some point, but there is no place for it in DayZ. At least in it's current form.

• Its a game
  
• 3rd person is currently a part of DayZ Standalone build (As far as the last dev post revealed)
  
• Rocket hasn't said that he wants it removed
  

Rocket has on the other hand talk about balancing issues and has discussed changing it; this is an attempt to do so. If you don't like my opinion you can say so; just don't be hot headed idiot whilst doing so. When I Quote say "awareness" I'm not talking about it in the capacity of being a justification for the player's spidy sense like abilities its simply a side affect of having a larger field of view, both from 1st and 3rd person perspectives. I argue that in games like DayZ you need an increased FOV regardless of perspective; because over-wise you lack the awareness you need to gauge a situation.

[scoffield77@gmail.com 192]

ANOTHER FUCKING 3rd v.s 1st POST! jeeze...

Just keep the half of the official servers on veteran, and the other half one expert... problem solve.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

If this is possible it would be an excellent solution.

Both 1st and 3rd would be viable ways to play, and with the exploitable aspects of 3rd person eliminated, we could all play together regardless of preference.

Nice.

Thank you someone; with some sense. I'm actual quite opposed to 3rd person only games for these exact reason but even have seen the benefits that 3rd person provides. What it does: is gives you a sense of awareness that 1st person on its own can't provide and is more akin to the level of awareness you gain from other abilities in the real world. Though I clearly comes with exploitative issues and its these that I've attempted to resolve.

If you have any constructive criticism or improvements you think could be made please leave them.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

What staying hidden isn't the key to survival? That means I should go out into an open field to survive, and just run everywhere freely? Yea do that, and tell me how it works out.

Topic creator it's a really great idea. I don't disagree with the idea, but I think they choose to keep third person for fear it would alienate people who like to play in third person.

Belmarduk that's an awesome idea as well. Never knew/thought about that.

Maybe if neither of those features are added they can just decrease the field of view for third person making it closer to the player like a lot of third person shooters. Like Resident Evil.

Yes I do agree; they are mostly likely only holding on to 3rd person for fear of loosing a chunk of their audience.

Plus I think all the solutions you've just quoted/contributed are viable trade off's to balance the perspectives; perhaps a limited combination of all three would strike a near perfect balance.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

The view-angle rendering that BelMarduk mentions is a perfectly reasonable solution.

In conjunction with your "Alt+scroll" control, it would allow a player to glance and gain awareness of their own character, without exploiting the ability to track other players around corners or over walls.

In fact, I'd go so far as to allow ONLY your own character to render while in 3dp (no players, no zeds. no loot, no vehicles) regardless of LOS.

Consider it "concentrating on yourself rather than your surroundings"

I use 3dp myself. I like to see what my character is up to, and it can be REALLY handy when trying to tell how far you stick out of cover, or if you're about to fall off a roof.

The fact is, if it's exploitable it WILL BE exploited. I'm not accusing anyone, just pointing out a basic fact of the matter.

This subject has been done to death. And though there are a couple of decent thoughts here, it really wasn't worth creating ANOTHER new topic on it.

EDIT:

Went back and highlighted a bit, since this far down the page nobody is even reading eachothers posts.

I actually think a combination of these ideas could work together but I do think not seeing any from third person is a bit overkill; only people you could over-wise have seen from 1st person on the other hand I think would work in combination with players you've seen recently.