5.56mm weapon nerfing

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

Why even bother.

You know, I was kind of wondering that myself, especially now you've resorted to calling people idiots because they're disagreeing with you. Do you want a discussion about this, or do you just want to throw insults around?

[reuben5150 83]

You know, I was kind of wondering that myself, especially now you've resorted to calling people idiots because they're disagreeing with you. Do you want a discussion about this, or do you just want to throw insults around?

What ?

[reuben5150 83]

A little late on the topic, but I don't think the game is becoming "dumbed down already."

It's being "populated by dumb people."

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

...I thought that was kind of self-explanatory.

I was wondering out loud whether it was even worth bothering continuing this discussion with you if you're just going to call people idiots because they say something you disagree with. I then asked you if you actually want to discuss the topic (in which case I'll stick around and do so civilly) or whether you want to just hurl insults at people with opposing views (in which case I'll just leave).

[reuben5150 83]

...I thought that was kind of self-explanatory.

I was wondering out loud whether it was even worth bothering continuing this discussion with you if you're just going to call people idiots because they say something you disagree with. I then asked you if you actually want to discuss the topic (in which case I'll stick around and do so civilly) or whether you want to just hurl insults at people with opposing views (in which case I'll just leave).

The dancing Russian is lying or trolling, I wasn't calling you an idiot.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

You proved your own point because your just another idiot posting misinformation on this forum.

Why even bother.

Okay.jpg

Encourages spray n pray. A caliber doesn't encourage anything. This is a silly way of starting a topic.

In other words, we are heading towards cod/bf3 Territory and the whole reason I stopped playing those games, dayz is becoming dumbed down already. DayZ has not changed in any way to make the game easier. In fact, it has made things a lot harder. For example, you cannot break your legs in the vanilla ARMA 2 game. Second; All the weapon stats are unmodified. The guns you have in DayZ are the guns that are in the original game, and handle the exact same way. Is ARMA 2 dumbed down? I don't think so. Are people using guns to fire rounds in a stupidly quick succession? Yes. Hence why I say that the game is being populated by dumb people, instead of the game being dumb.

4 body shots to kill a player is unacceptable. Have you ever been shot before? DayZ is built on a military simulator, in case you didn't know. People can die of a single handgun bullet to the leg, be it blood-loss or lead-poisoning. (Even though modern bullets don't use actual lead anymore. Or do they? I'm not honestly quite sure.)

And how bizarre that the l85 holo. Now deals 8000k damage. L85A2 was removed from the original DayZ mod. Same with M107 and I think AS50 is on the edge as well, if not also removed.

If the reason for the nerfs is to give players better chances of escape then please make available bullet vests rather than this. This I agree with. Except that weapons are not being nerfed or buffed in any way, like I said before.

Edit; Apparently you can break your legs in the vanilla game. I take that back.

Now can you stop calling me an idiot? I'm explaining my opinions. All you do is call names at people.

Edit; If you would bother to look at my post history, or were a "veteran" forum member(as in, have been reading for a long time), you'd quickly find out that I am not posting misinformation on the forums. I argue for the sake of creating a discussion, but sadly the irony in you claiming me an idiot doesn't help in that matter. But I can keep arguing your intelligence as well, if that's more to your liking. I've dealt with your kind of people in the past, and you are quite easy to predict and put down.

Edit2; Even if you're too silly to understand when to stand down, I enjoy arguing. So you'd be a source of entertainment for me until the mods came busting through the doors and locking the thread.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

I never said you called me an idiot. I said you were calling someone who disagreed with you an idiot, which undermines your position, as it's typically something people start to do when they run out of counter-arguments. Surely showing some kind of proof of why you believe he's wrong is a more effective counter than pointless name-calling?

[-Gews- 7443]

Honestly, it's a clusterfuck, Enfield reduced to 6000 for a 303, and the German smg, I forget the name is worthless.

Okay, look here:

The Enfield was not reduced to 6722!

Bohemia reduced it to 11. The 7.62mm does 12. The .303 British is slightly less powerful than the 7.62, so that makes sense.

11.

12.

Barely any difference in the values Bohemia chose. The differences seem much larger because blood damage = hit value squared, multiplied by 55.55.

the German smg, I forget the name is worthless.

Yes, in DayZ, but in ArmA 2 it is twice as effective as in DayZ.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Gews

[scubaman3d 680]

I'm not at all involved with creating damage tables, nor am I submitting this as a rational for any recent change by the team but I seem to remember reading a report describing the effectiveness of 5.56mm ammo in Afghanistan. Apparently the average number of hits it takes to cause immediate incapacitation or death to an enemy combatant was 7. I'm thinking the "one shot drop" is an elusive fellow in the real world. The crappy thing is I can't seem to find the article right now to provide the source.

[HERBERT-THETREE 44]

"you cannot break your legs in the vanilla ARMA 2 game"

you can break legs in arma2 it just doesnt have an indicator, it forces you to crawl.

modern bullets don't use actual lead anymore. Or do they? I'm not honestly quite sure.

To some degree yes, but not as much. (pretty sure on this)

Edit:

Apparently the average number of hits it takes to cause immediate incapacitation or death to an enemy combatant was 7. I'm thinking the "one shot drop" is an elusive fellow in the real world.

Just curious but does that take into consideration that military ammo is Full metal jacket?its designed to injure not kill.

Edited February 18, 2013 by HERBERT-THETREE

[reuben5150 83]

Okay.jpg

Now can you stop calling me an idiot? I'm explaining my opinions. All you do is call names at people.

Well I'm sorry if you are not aware of the facts, but at some point in time the weapons were nerfed, fact.

You said that weapons had not changed, perhaps you should think before you post.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

"you cannot break your legs in the vanilla ARMA 2 game"

you can break legs in arma2 it just doesnt have an indicator, it forces you to crawl.

modern bullets don't use actual lead anymore. Or do they? I'm not honestly quite sure.

To some degree yes, but not as much. (pretty sure on this)

Odd. I've not had my legs break in the vanilla game once. And I've survived several shots from LMGs as well as fallen off of heights where I would normally break my legs in DayZ. (Like the lowest roof on the Firestation building. The little shaft off to the side.)

But if you can actually break your legs, then I apologize. I've just never experienced it myself.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Well I'm sorry if you are not aware of the facts, but at some point in time the weapons were nerfed, fact.

You said that weapons had not changed, perhaps you should think before you post.

Wrong.

I know Bohemia Interactive changes the values of the weapons. The most notable thing they did was change the damage on the pistols so that you had to shoot zombies 3-4 times with a revolver to kill them. Before that nerf they only needed 1-2. But the DayZ mod does not change the weapon damage values. It all comes directly from Bohemia Interactive, the original developer of the game that DayZ is built on.

Hence, I am not wrong. You just cannot comprehend the message I'm trying to give you.

If you feel that the entire ARMA 2 is getting dumbed down, then go to the ARMA 2 forums and complain there.

Bohemia Interactive does not change the guns based on what people within a mod community think.

[-Gews- 7443]

I'm not at all involved with creating damage tables, nor am I submitting this as a rational for any recent change by the team but I seem to remember reading a report describing the effectiveness of 5.56mm ammo in Afghanistan. Apparently the average number of hits it takes to cause immediate incapacitation or death to an enemy combatant was 7. I'm thinking the "one shot drop" is an elusive fellow in the real world. The crappy thing is I can't seem to find the article right now to provide the source.

Of course I can't speak to that myself :P but the effectiveness of 5.56mm was reduced a couple times... first, when the US decided to change the rate of twist in the barrel to make the bullets more stable in flight. This meant they were less prone to tumbling (and thus fragmenting). Then the US decided to switch to the M885 round, which was designed to penetrate the body armour of Cold War opponents better than the previous loadings. It has a heavier weight and lower muzzle velocity and is also less prone to tumbling and fragmenting. More recently they have introduced the 77-grain Mk.262, which is supposed to be more effective but was not for general issue. The standard 5.56 has a problem with tumbling when it gets below a certain velocity, I think it is around 2,500-2,600 fps. The lower muzzle velocity of the M4 Carbine also exacerbated the problem, and with longer ranged engagements in Afghanistan...

Odd. I've not had my legs break in the vanilla game once. And I've survived several shots from LMGs as well as fallen off of heights where I would normally break my legs in DayZ. (Like the lowest roof on the Firestation building. The little shaft off to the side.)

But if you can actually break your legs, then I apologize. I've just never experienced it myself.

You can break your legs in the vanilla game.

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

I'm not at all involved with creating damage tables, nor am I submitting this as a rational for any recent change by the team but I seem to remember reading a report describing the effectiveness of 5.56mm ammo in Afghanistan. Apparently the average number of hits it takes to cause immediate incapacitation or death to an enemy combatant was 7. I'm thinking the "one shot drop" is an elusive fellow in the real world. The crappy thing is I can't seem to find the article right now to provide the source.

This would support quite a lot of anecdotal evidence I've seen and read as well - the 'instant death bullet' where a guy gets shot once and immediately falls down dead is pretty much a TV/movie-perpetuated myth for anything short of a headshot or a 50 cal round - there's been a fair few instances of people (including police officers) shooting someone once and then being surprised when the victim returns fire several times before shock sets in.

[HERBERT-THETREE 44]

Odd. I've not had my legs break in the vanilla game once. And I've survived several shots from LMGs as well as fallen off of heights where I would normally break my legs in DayZ. (Like the lowest roof on the Firestation building. The little shaft off to the side.)

But if you can actually break your legs, then I apologize. I've just never experienced it myself.

I cant explain those instances lol. but ive broken my legs in arma before from things like being shot or falling off of buildings. no need for apology i was just letting you know.

[reuben5150 83]

Okay, look here:

The Enfield was not reduced to 6722!

Bohemia reduced it to 11. The 7.62mm does 12. The .303 British is slightly less powerful than the 7.62, so that makes sense.

11.

12.

Barely any difference in the values Bohemia chose. The differences seem much larger because blood damage = hit value squared, multiplied by 55.55.

7.62 in dayz does 8000, lets be clear bout which game were talking about.

Yes, in DayZ, but in ArmA 2 it is twice as effective as in DayZ.

[reuben5150 83]

Wrong.

I know Bohemia Interactive changes the values of the weapons. The most notable thing they did was change the damage on the pistols so that you had to shoot zombies 3-4 times with a revolver to kill them. Before that nerf they only needed 1-2. But the DayZ mod does not change the weapon damage values. It all comes directly from Bohemia Interactive, the original developer of the game that DayZ is built on.

Hence, I am not wrong. You just cannot comprehend the message I'm trying to give you.

If you feel that the entire ARMA 2 is getting dumbed down, then go to the ARMA 2 forums and complain there.

Bohemia Interactive does not change the guns based on what people within a mod community think.

I dont care whether It came from arma or not, I'm taking about dayz, a mod, different game.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

I dont care whether It came from arma or not, I'm taking about dayz, a mod, different game.

But your point is invalid if you whine about a change that the DayZ mod has nothing to do with.

DayZ is not a game. It's a mod. Meaning, it's a modification of an already existing game.

It takes most of its content from ARMA 2 and ARMA 2 Operation Arrowhead, and gives it a different purpose.

Just because Rocket and his team added zombie textures and added some new animations and a handful of models and one weapon(crossbow), it doesn't make it a game. It's a modification. Not a game. Understand that.

[-Gews- 7443]

I don't see what the argument is all about! This thread has turned heated!

1. The weapon damage has been reduced by Bohemia

2. We need the weapons to be a bit more effective

Solution? Reduce player health, reduce zombie health even more. That way you can once more have pistols that can take out zombies in a couple shots, and your 5.56mm weapons will be more powerful at closer ranges, like old times.

Makes sense to me...

[Heiduk 265]

The new damages make sense for ArmA, they don't work as well with DayZ where your player has twice the amount of health.

Player health needs to be nerfed.

I know this is the internet and we aren't supposed to pay attention to people who actually know what they are talking about but beans to you.

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

This would support quite a lot of anecdotal evidence I've seen and read as well - the 'instant death bullet' where a guy gets shot once and immediately falls down dead is pretty much a TV/movie-perpetuated myth for anything short of a headshot or a 50 cal round - there's been a fair few instances of people (including police officers) shooting someone once and then being surprised when the victim returns fire several times before shock sets in.

I'm not really asking for 1-shot insta-kills (excluding the aforementioned situations), but shots to the heart and other vital areas should be a kill. There should be certain areas on the player where you can't really do anything if you get shot there. Heart, neck, head, and I'm sure there are others, should be pretty much the end for you. Also, it would be nice if a bullet could incapacitate a player, like they stumble and perhaps fall, have a limp, or not be able to use their weapon effectively. Along the lines of broken legs and unconsciousness.

[Khoysta 17]

I'm not at all involved with creating damage tables, nor am I submitting this as a rational for any recent change by the team but I seem to remember reading a report describing the effectiveness of 5.56mm ammo in Afghanistan. Apparently the average number of hits it takes to cause immediate incapacitation or death to an enemy combatant was 7. I'm thinking the "one shot drop" is an elusive fellow in the real world. The crappy thing is I can't seem to find the article right now to provide the source.

~4 (5-6 for vest) for 5.56, and 2-3 (~3 for vest) for 7.62 in COIN (J&K).

Edited February 18, 2013 by Khoysta

[GOD™ 2795]

Arma 2 is a "Simulator"

If you took 4 shots to the body, would you be perfectly fine?

Edited February 18, 2013 by GOD™

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

If you took 4 shots to the body, would you be perfectly fine?

I'm pretty sure a swift boot to the nads would put most folk out of action for a while, let alone 4 bullets in the chest.

On the subject of player health/blood count.

IMO players and zeds should have the same health, with the difference being that zeds don't bleed, so "on-contact" damage would be all that counts.

I can understand why people want to survive more gunshot wounds. It takes a long time to get geared up, so death is a pisser.

That doesn't mean the game should be made less lethal to accomodate your fears. It means you should try and avoid getting shot so often.