Some ideas regarding gear progression = character progression.

[Droidlife 11]

Right.

I'm a swede so there might be some weirdness in the language. Hope you can decifer my thoughs. :)

A while ago I put a post up on Reddit where I said that eating, bandaging and blood transfusions and the like should take much longer then they do now. I was talking 15-20 seconds for operations like that, and no running cross country while opening cans of beans with your bare hands and chugging down the contents in a second. I tried to make the point that these actions should have players locked down in a vulnerable position. No more "bish bash bosh" type bandaging or blood transfusions while ducking bullets and spewing curses from behind a wall.

No takers.

It would "go to far with realism" was the sentiment I got from a few responses. I was talking about setting up camp fires and cooking meat on a stick etc and people didnt like it.

Then I started thinking. The Arma II engine is rather clunky, but this clunkiness in a sense adds to the panic and frantic feel of certain tense moments. You are fiddling with a door, trying to squeeze through it with your big ass backpack and rifle and all. You fiddle and click around on the inventory screen and miss stuff and have to abandon the operation because of immediate threats. The clunkiness gets on your nerves, but at the same time it adds realism.

But what if you take the "clunky" out of this but leave the realism. What if you could graphically represent these actions in a slick way. A more "palatable" way so to speak. Something that would add a "breather" but not a fiddly unintuitive annoyance? A few calm but paranoid moments where you have to spread your gear out and go through it, which would force you to take into consideration the "when an where" to a greater extent than the way it works atm?

I'm thinking animations for taking your pack off, placing it in front of you and having the inventory slots pop out, like in the kick started zombie game project "the dead linger". Perhaps a crouching animation as well. There would be proper sound effects for this ofc with straps and buckles and zippers going off etc. Eating a can of beans would have it's particular sound effect. A pack of crackers would have different ones. I'm sure you get the general idea.(Some food items could be consumed faster, or while on the move, but would affect hunger/health/stamina to a lesser extent than prepared foods, or canned goods.)

Now!

If gear is to be the way your character progress in the stand alone, I think that the different gear items in the world should impact how well and how fast you can accomplish various tasks. I mean there are TONS of gear-boner inducing, manly tactical vests and holsters and stuff on the market, and we love it all, right? Imagine finding a cool tactical vest that would let you distribute key items on different parts of your body for easier accessibility. Finding stuff like that would be GOLDEN, and they would majorily affect how well your character can perform. Imagine gutting an animal with a shitty kitchen knife (takes a long time, poor success rate/outcome/yield) compared to a survivalist style Rambo knife.

Do you get what I'm trying to say here? I wont ramble on any furher.

Make gear VERY diverse (can openers anyone? (quickly open cans) as opposed to having to knife open your Heinz. Add sound effects!) and make it have VERY diverse effects on how quickly and how well you can perform actions.

We could go further with this thinking about skills and books and all that type of stuff but my main point is that certain actions should take a considerable and realistic amount of time to perform, and the way to make your character "better" would be to get all decked out in gear that makes life easier for you. Gear that makes you more mobile, more combat effective etc.

TLDR; Keep actions time consuming, but have a diverse spread of gear items affect how well you can perform. Lock these two aspects into each other. Present actions in a slick, non-annoying way but keep the time aspect. Let players affect the time aspect by gearing up.

Edit: Top of the list! CAN OPENERS!

I am new to the forums and to DayZ as well so I do apologize if you guys have like, gone over this a million times already. But I hope my thoughts can add something to the discussion.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Droidlife

[DemonGroover 8836]

I agree with you in some regards. Some actions should take considerably longer than they do now, such as swapping guns between your backpack and being armed.

Eating, drinking and opening a backpack will hopefully have better animations in the SA and these animations should reflect how long it takes to open a drink and quaff it down etc.

[plrsniper 87]

As much as i agree with the rest i just can't agree with the can opener vs knife deal.

The quickest way to open a tin can is to stab it with a knife vs carefully taking the top off with a can opener. The difference is you may dull your precious knife blade and you may get a few metal shavings as an added bonus in your meal if you go all "stabby stabby" on your tin can.

I would love to have appropriate animations for all these things as well, it would add tons to the immersion and would force you to make more tactical decisions that you otherwise just brush off in the heat of the moment as you go along.

[taco241 393]

I like what you're saying. You want to savor the moments it takes to care of menial tasks , become more attuned to your gear and add a greater sense of realism. I like your ideas. they would enrich the DayZ experience.

[Droidlife 11]

I like what you're saying. You want to savor the moments it takes to care of menial tasks , become more attuned to your gear and add a greater sense of realism. I like your ideas. they would enrich the DayZ experience.

Yes, but also these ideas would affect game play in a very direct and natural manner. If having a blood transfusion done, or getting a leg splintered, or just bandaging a wound are major operations that are represented in game as accurately as possible, while not going over the top with it in the time aspect (so it doesnt become an annoyance) it would have a real impact on player behavior. Ofc you would have to find a sweet spot here. I'm not saying players should have to sit through half an hour of dressing a wound.

You would have to plan your city loot runs. You would be much more cautious. An extra pair of hands from a friend or a team of survivors would make life much easier in many aspects besides having more firepower, more eyes on the situation and a buddy with a blood pack. If taking care of your basic needs, and your critical needs become a more time consuming / skill requiring operation the "when and where" that I'm talking about becomes much more pronounced in several of the game mechanics, and this affects player behavior. It would really, really incentivise teaming up with other players, that's for sure.

I mean WITHDRAWING from a firefight, straight up fleeing, would become a much more logical reaction if you get wounded. You couldnt just go througgh your gear and perform complex actions in amatter of seconds while you hunker down, and then pop out fit as a fiddle to continue the engagement.

I think that you could bump up the time aspect quite a bit without pissing off the player because actions such as eating or taking care of a wound are not things that you do frequently during game play. These actions represent critical moments where you should be vulnerable and exposed. If you package such a time consuming action in apalatable way, with slick graphical and sound effects along with it, and perhaps a little timer or something along that line I think it would add very much to immersion. Then make it so that gear progression affects how well you can perform. Let various gear items affect time and outcome/success rate and I think you can build a pretty solid system with strong incentives to gear up.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[Droidlife 11]

As much as i agree with the rest i just can't agree with the can opener vs knife deal.

The quickest way to open a tin can is to stab it with a knife vs carefully taking the top off with a can opener. The difference is you may dull your precious knife blade and you may get a few metal shavings as an added bonus in your meal if you go all "stabby stabby" on your tin can.

I would love to have appropriate animations for all these things as well, it would add tons to the immersion and would force you to make more tactical decisions that you otherwise just brush off in the heat of the moment as you go along.

I have had extensive testing with this in real life my friend since I currently do not own a can opener, and it is my strong position that knifing open a can of beans takes longer than opening it with a can opener. Not to mention the risk of cuts on jagged edges when you hammer it open with a knife. :)

But perhaps you are like the master of knifing cans open. (Hell, make "knifing cans" a seperate skill tree. :D) But it's besides the point im trying to make here. I'm saying "keep it realistic, and let gear affect your performance".

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[plrsniper 87]

I have had extensive testing with this in real life my friend since I currently do not own a can opener, and it is my strong position that knifing open a can of beans takes longer than opening it with a can opener. Not to mention the risk of cuts on jagged edges when you hammer it open with a knife. :)

But perhaps you are like the master of knifing cans open. (Hell, make "knifing cans" a seperate skill tree. :D) But it's besides the point im trying to make here. I'm saying "keep it realistic, and let gear affect your performance".

It doesn't take much to knife a tin can open as long as you have a proper knife, being from Sweden i am sure you are aware of Fällkniven A1.

You simply stab the can with a + shape and bend the top open and pour the contents out or in the case of more solid contents, dig it out with the same knife.

It doesn't take a master to pull that off and it takes no more than 4 stabs and 10 seconds in total. Whereas a can opener (by a skilled operator) takes up to 20 seconds in the best of cases.

[Droidlife 11]

It doesn't take much to knife a tin can open as long as you have a proper knife, being from Sweden i am sure you are aware of Fällkniven A1.

You simply stab the can with a + shape and bend the top open and pour the contents out or in the case of more solid contents, dig it out with the same knife.

It doesn't take a master to pull that off and it takes no more than 4 stabs and 10 seconds in total. Whereas a can opener (by a skilled operator) takes up to 20 seconds in the best of cases.

Ok but let's put this aside for now. I'm pretty certain that you can't dress a wound by stabbing a Fällkniven at it. That is one bad ass knife though, I agree. :)

I mean this example we are talking about now only further supports my main argument. Finding a good quality knife like that would make opening a can much easier than slamming it repeatedly with a rock or whatever, but it could be accomplished that way, you know. But that would take much longer and the contents would risk being lost to a degree. Findign aknife then would be "gearing up" and the time involved in the whole opening cans of beans milark would be cut down, so you would be more mobile and just more effective in general.

As it stands now there are many many areas in the mod where there is room for this type of mechanic.

Good quality knife, awkward type of knife, can opener, mechanical can opener, shitty can opener, jab a screwdriver into the can, slam the can on a rock. There is room for very diverse gear progression here if there is 1. a time aspect to the various actions, and 2. an effect on the outcome as to quality and yield. A good hunting knife would make processing animals much easier then if you just came off the beach, found a bread knife in a house along the way and tried to cut open a goat.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[Droidlife 11]

As much as I dislike WarZ at least the douchebag devs behind that abomination of a game put in a kind of basic "progress indicator" for certain actions, like when picking up loot. I dont know if they have this in for other types of actions but it's like a bare bones representation of a "time" implementation. Now imagine this as a slick, small progress indicator that isn't shoved in your face right at the cross hairs position all "gamey" and ghastly. While this indicator counted down you could have your toon go through certain activity related motions, either represented in FPS view showing the actual hand movements and items involved, or represented graphically in some other way.

This would be accompanied by appropriate sound effects and just generally integrated in the whole feel of the interface. Slinging your back pack or "gear sling" down on the floor and seeing the actual model for the pack you are wearing would be super cool. Throwing wood on the ground and crouching down to light it on fire by various means of igniting would be cozy. Think of the gutting animals animation and sound package from Far Cry 3, but more time involved. Think, a piece of wood, a stick, actually represented in FPS view as you saw an animation of you putting cloth around it to make a torch. That type of thing could be how actions are represented. There would have to be found a sweet spot here as I said, and the implementation of such as system should be accompanied by some form of interesting and immersive graphics and sound effects.

Whilst this is going on, the player behind the screen lights a fag or adjusts his chair or takes a zip from his beer or whatever. It shouldn't be something that occurs in the general flow of the game and slows it down or gets in the way, but it would be something that feels natural and represents moments of "down time". Fairly short moments, but still substantial. I'm thinking in the range of 10-30 seconds tops.(well, personally I'm open for longer but this has to be tested and would be affected by many things). The time frame would be the game representation of a person running into a house, feeling a bit safer for a few short moments and taking the time to go through his pack, dig out a certain item and doing a certain operation, be it eating, medical care, weapon modifications or similar actions. The key thing here is that being "locked down" and exposed like that would BRING something to the game I think. It would affect player behavior in many ways. Mainly, it would make people act more cautiously.

Now as you gear up you become better at these activites. This would have a big impact on field dressing and similar activities where people could actually start feeling like a "wasteland medic" in a true sense because they have found this rare piece of medical loot that makes their actions much quicker and more effective. You could take this further if Rocket and the rest of the boys ever decide to go in the direction of skill progression. Mabey a slow but steady progression along the lines of how Bethesda does it in their Elder scrolls games. I.e, you learn by doing. Or find related material (books, pamflets?) and gear that makes your job easier.

I mean there is a HUGE difference between having your clips at the bottom of your backpack or easily accessible in a new flashy tac gear vest that you just found. Or in your pockets!

In my mind there is a vastness of options here if you have the basic mechanic in place that you start out unskilled, weak on gear and weak on experience with surviving zombie apocalypses and many actions take a considerable amount of time to execute. But then you gear up and become more skilled, and your beard grows long and strong, and nublets look to you for support and guidance and your extensive can opening expertise. :D

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[Droidlife 11]

I am aware that there is a fine line to tread here, but if the longer down times in this type of system steadily become shorter as you gear up, along with having "tools" affecting the success rate of certain actions, i think that would be a solid type of "character progression", and finding loot that affects your performance in different ways would become more fun.

Anyway. A can of beans without a knife or a can opener is just a hassle to deal with. If you had soup, maybe you could punch a hole in it with a screw driver or some other sharp, metallic object and pour it into your mouth, or suck it up with a straw! :D

Just kidding.

Or am i?

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

For thous of us with neither can opener nor knife. (even though he did use a knife in the vid)

[Droidlife 11]

Awesome! :D

[floogy (DayZ) 25]

Well thought out posts. I like the idea of increasing the amount of time to complete tasks. Bandaging maybe a little longer than it is now. But I'd hate to bleed out just because I couldnt bandage in time. I think quick clot would be a good addition. Really gnarly stuff but totally applicable to this game setting. It reacts to the liquid in blood and creates intense heat cauterizing the wound. The tradeoff for speed would be intense pain. Another idea would be to add time for painkillers to work. You would have to retreat to give them time to work. Even if you bandaged yourself quickly you'd have to deal with the pain. I'd like to see big trauma kits similar to what a frontline Corpsman or medic might carry. But it would take up your backpack slot.

I think the can opener idea is reaching a bit far. I see what you're saying but maybe something like having a medkit in the toolbelt which speeds/improves treatment. For example, with no medkit a bandage would take 25 sec to apply. With a good medkit maybe 10-15 sec. Have gear that may not be necessary to complete to task but makes it faster/better. You could go on for days with all the ideas. Camp stoves for better food with no fire, better knives for more meat from a kill, mag pouches for more mags/faster reloads etc etc...

So much cool stuff is possible. I think there will be room for mods to the SA to incorporate some of the more complex survival aspects of the game. Not everyone wants to deal with little things like can openers and sewing kits. But some do, and that's cool.

[Droidlife 11]

Well thought out posts. I like the idea of increasing the amount of time to complete tasks. Bandaging maybe a little longer than it is now. But I'd hate to bleed out just because I couldnt bandage in time. I think quick clot would be a good addition. Really gnarly stuff but totally applicable to this game setting. It reacts to the liquid in blood and creates intense heat cauterizing the wound. The tradeoff for speed would be intense pain. Another idea would be to add time for painkillers to work. You would have to retreat to give them time to work. Even if you bandaged yourself quickly you'd have to deal with the pain. I'd like to see big trauma kits similar to what a frontline Corpsman or medic might carry. But it would take up your backpack slot.

I think the can opener idea is reaching a bit far. I see what you're saying but maybe something like having a medkit in the toolbelt which speeds/improves treatment. For example, with no medkit a bandage would take 25 sec to apply. With a good medkit maybe 10-15 sec. Have gear that may not be necessary to complete to task but makes it faster/better. You could go on for days with all the ideas. Camp stoves for better food with no fire, better knives for more meat from a kill, mag pouches for more mags/faster reloads etc etc...

So much cool stuff is possible. I think there will be room for mods to the SA to incorporate some of the more complex survival aspects of the game. Not everyone wants to deal with little things like can openers and sewing kits. But some do, and that's cool.

Dude! You should totally be able to do that thing with lighting gunpowder on fire in your wound as well. Straight up bad assery! Like you say, the possibilities here are great indeed. Thing is though that you need to dress these things on top of a solid system of game mechanics tied into gear progression or skill progression, and the system needs to be a limiting factor to some degree, but presented in a pleasant manner. If you have that in place you can go nuts with all the little aspects of zombie survival.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droidlife

[theirongiant 200]

I like these ideas but I don't think your character should be "locked down" during them, you should always have the option to cut and run if necessary.

[Vaktoth (DayZ) 0]

1st post on the forums..so.. o/

I like this idea but balance is key. Taking off your pack to access gear, thus it ends up on the ground, would make for interesting prospects.

Waiting for a player to do so, then scaring them off and stealing their gear? Epic.

Having to do so in the middle of town with axe crazed madmen wanting your beans? Terrifying.

Time sinks to eat, drink, etc..would make the player consider whether their position is tennable to snarf some grub or get the extra bandage, mag, whatever from their pack. My main concern would be whether a can opener vs. knife would add to the experience. Too many time sinks and you spend the whole day doing inane crap rather than progressing in the game. I can think of alot of things that would be interesting, but would they add to the experience? Bathing? Brushing your teeth? Taking a dump? Combat jack? Sure, they sound cool but going down the complexity rabbit hole is not always good for game appeal.

I can't wait to hold someone up while they are butt naked as they try to change into their ghillie/camo/bunny outfit. Something for the SA indeed.

[Inception. 9443]

I have an idea!

For future reference, post suggestions in the Suggestions area.

Other than that I like what you have presented.

Moved.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Got to say i think what they've done by smoothing out the animations is exactly the right approach but I feel some other animations should have more significance. Most all things should still be able to be canceled on the fly but perhaps rather than taking longer to complete they should require more preparation. For instance if you don't have a knife; it should take a few short whacks of a tin on the ground to open it as opposed to using your knife to save time and food. Also food should last longer meaning you can't just consume a tin in one go instead taking quick bites at any chance you get. Or if you use bandages quickly; their effect on stopping blood loss should be limited and use more resources, to complete the task quickly.